Powers & Abilities Explainint Haki and Zoro's Ashura

[S.W317]

In my opinion Ashura is indeed advanced CoC but first let us explain what advanced Haki is in the first place cause people seem to be confused. Being particularly proficient in a type of haki is one thing, having the advanced version of that haki is another(take Luffy for example who has advanced CoO but still has a lot to learn about CoO) and being able to use that type of haki to it's utmost efficiency via "flow"(ryou) is a completely different thing. "Ryou" isn't advCoA it's just an advanced usage of haki which revolves around flow and control of haki(similar to chakra control in Naruto) and after mastering the "flow of haki" you can apply any type of haki into it and ppl assumed this is advancedCoA because most characters use it with CoA but in fact you can use Ryou with any type of haki.



Now going back to Zoro, it seems that Zoro while being very proficient and possessing a very powerful armament haki neither has the advanced version of it nor does he knows Ryou, but after training and obtaining Enma he's able to kinda use it via the swrod(which explains why having Enma seemed like a powerup while it is not) but he probably isn't using Ryou in his other swords which is why he's still not as good as Oden. I believe that just having CoC or even advanced CoC can't damage Kaido unless you utilize Ryou with it then wtf did Zoro do with Ashura in order to scar Kaido? Well as we already established before, Ashura is indeed an advanced version of CoC but it doesn't "flow", so when Zoro used Ashura with Enma, Enma made Zoro's CoC "flow" out of his body and therefore damaged Kaido.


In conclusion of the above in order for Zoro to damage Kaido he needs to use Ashura + Enma together, unless Zoro reaches full control of Enma and therefore is able to use Ryou freely now after his body understood the concept of it and also realise that he has CoC and use it with Ryou. THEN Zoro will be able to replicate what he did to Kaido in 1010 without having to resort to Ashura or unleashing Enma's full power(that would be reserved for a finishing move)

 

[nik87]

Now going back to Zoro, it seems that Zoro while being very proficient and possessing a very powerful armament haki neither has the advanced version of it nor does he knows Ryou, but after training and obtaining Enma he's able to kinda use it via the swrod(which explains why having Enma seemed like a powerup while it is not) but he probably isn't using Ryou in his other swords which is why he's still not as good as Oden. I believe that just having CoC or even advanced CoC can't damage Kaido unless you utilize Ryou with it then wtf did Zoro do with Ashura in order to scar Kaido? Well as we already established before, Ashura is indeed an advanced version of CoC but it doesn't "flow", so when Zoro used Ashura with Enma, Enma made Zoro's CoC "flow" out of his body and therefore damaged Kaido.


In conclusion of the above in order for Zoro to damage Kaido he needs to use Ashura + Enma together, unless Zoro reaches full control of Enma and therefore is able to use Ryou freely now after his body understood the concept of it and also realise that he has CoC and use it with Ryou. THEN Zoro will be able to replicate what he did to Kaido in 1010 without having to resort to Ashura or unleashing Enma's full power(that would be reserved for a finishing move)

This is like a man writing a book on pregnancy...
Nothing is established, Asura itself should not be CoC...
Zoro used Ryo back in Alabasta...
Zoro already did far more than Oden could possibly dream of...
Having Ryo alone is enough to damage Kaido, just like having CoC alone is... No need to combine them...
Enma making CoC flow? Nothing but headcanon...
Zoro damaged Kaido without using Asura, Scabbards damaged Kaido without Enma...
Hiryu Kaen was already portrayed as powerful enough to kill Kaido...

 

[S.W317]

This is like a man writing a book on pregnancy...
Nothing is established, Asura itself should not be CoC...
Zoro used Ryo back in Alabasta...
Zoro already did far more than Oden could possibly dream of...
Having Ryo alone is enough to damage Kaido, just like having CoC alone is... No need to combine them...
Enma making CoC flow? Nothing but headcanon...
Zoro damaged Kaido without using Asura, Scabbards damaged Kaido without Enma...
Hiryu Kaen was already portrayed as powerful enough to kill Kaido...

Ryou isn't armament haki like you think, it's just flow, you can use it with CoO, CoA and CoC. You're just too dumb to understand this
[automerge]1619694634[/automerge]

This is like a man writing a book on pregnancy...
Nothing is established, Asura itself should not be CoC...
Zoro used Ryo back in Alabasta...
Zoro already did far more than Oden could possibly dream of...
Having Ryo alone is enough to damage Kaido, just like having CoC alone is... No need to combine them...
Enma making CoC flow? Nothing but headcanon...
Zoro damaged Kaido without using Asura, Scabbards damaged Kaido without Enma...
Hiryu Kaen was already portrayed as powerful enough to kill Kaido...

Sorry but this thread isn't for the likes of you

 

[nik87]

Ryou isn't armament haki like you think, it's just flow, you can use it with CoO, CoA and CoC.

See yourself out.

 

[Finalbeta]

Asura is most likely CoC in that lightning sparkles weren't spot.

Ryou was highlighted as the capability to Flow one's haki in a specific region(s) and unleash its potency.

Zoro currently might already possess Enma mastery, he definitely does possess Ryou and ACoC nonetheless.

He does possess barrier haki which wasn't highlighted as Ryou but not penetration Ryou probably, which is a very different concept.

 

[Herrera95]

Dude just accept that this whole thing is a mess. You forgot to made clear one thing in your explanation. If Emma is the only way Zoro flows haki that would explain why only 1 scar at Kaido. And would finally reveal that Ashura is only an illusion and Zoro had only 1 Emma not 3.

But your explanation of haki is wrong. Ryou is only haki. People in Wano are Samurai so they only use haki in swords and Izo at weapons. If you wanna say then Ryou is basic haki applied to weapons or anything external your body. Is not advanced just different application. Amazon Lily girls used this since timeskip. Luffy wanted to learn advanced haki that he saw Rayleigh and Sentomaru using. Hyogoro himself stated that he didn't know that haki because was advanced.
And that advanced haki is only applied to CoA. Future Sight is the advanced form of CoO. By your logic if Luffy already knew CoO would be easy to learn CoA. But wasn't. He needed an extreme situation just like before to learn it.

Back to Ashura. I see only 2 scenarios. Ashura is basic CoC. Then Zoro once again would be the first Mugiwara ever showed a haki in pre timeskip. Which I like but it wouldn't make sense he not knowing this until now.
The second scenario is Ashura not being related to CoC. But Zoro used in an extreme situation. So he unlocked the adv CoC while using Ashura. He used at that attack but the attack itself is not adv CoC.

 

[draganax]

zoro can use the the concept of flow, he used it in alabasta and in fishmen island
i do agree that enma draw all types of offensive haki aka armament and conqueror's, that's why kaido said that enma is a source of a strange haki
and i think that for zoro to make haki flow from enma back to his arm means that he already mastered haki flow

the concept of flow means that the user collects haki from the parts of the body that don't need it and make it flow through your fist/sword, it's an advanced concept thus giving us advanced armament/conqueror/observation (zoro could feel the breath of inanimate objects)

advanced armament has a quirk that differentiate it from basic types of armament like hardening, that is with hardening the sword will cut anything even if the user didn't wan it to, while with the flow the sword will only cut what the user wants to cut and will not cut even the thinnest of paper if the user didn't want to, proof that hardening or any other type of armament does damage regardless of the user's will is when sanji didn't protect himself from black maria because it will hurt her

zoro back in alabasta used the flow of armament and observation, his inner talent of conquerors hasn't been awakened yet, zoro called it the power to cut steel, he only used it with iai attacks like (shishi sonson) and (rashomon), zoro would only use them when he's very damaged or after deep concentration, it would boosts zoro's strength and speed and enables him to cut very tough things like dragon 13, sea train, tekkai, kuma, mr.1, and it also gives zoro additional speed in disadvantageous situations like being under water against hody jones
zoro's (shishi sonson) was equal is strength to kaku's (rankyaku roudan) and tougher than steel, and kaku could match it's speed, kaku has superior speed to zoro as we saw he overpowered zoro when he used his swords, keep that in mind

asura is an extremely upgraded technique from the power to cut steel, when zoro activated it his strength increased so much that he was able to dwarf kaku in every aspect, he turned kaku's strongest technique (rankyaku amanedashi) into mist with no effort, and speed blitzed him before he could react

how zoro creates Asura: zoro flows a lot of haki outside hid body as a barrier, and manipulate the shape of that barrier to create additional body part, but it should still be invisible, the most important thing here is that zoro awoken conqueror's haki and he used it unconsciously (maybe consciously but without realizing what it is, -it's established that zoro can flow all types of haki since alabasta-) to make that barrier visible

 

[S.W317]

Asura is most likely CoC in that lightning sparkles weren't spot.

Ryou was highlighted as the capability to Flow one's haki in a specific region(s) and unleash its potency.

Zoro currently might already possess Enma mastery, he definitely does possess Ryou and ACoC nonetheless.

He does possess barrier haki which wasn't highlighted as Ryou but not penetration Ryou probably, which is a very different concept.

Advanced CoA is simply a stronger armor like Cracker and Katakuri but Ryou/barrier haki isn't advanced CoA. The internal destruction haki is also a form of advanced CoA

 

[Finalbeta]

I'm aware that ID entails ACoA but that doesn't alter my point in any shape.

 

[S.W317]

Dude just accept that this whole thing is a mess. You forgot to made clear one thing in your explanation. If Emma is the only way Zoro flows haki that would explain why only 1 scar at Kaido. And would finally reveal that Ashura is only an illusion and Zoro had only 1 Emma not 3.

But your explanation of haki is wrong. Ryou is only haki. People in Wano are Samurai so they only use haki in swords and Izo at weapons. If you wanna say then Ryou is basic haki applied to weapons or anything external your body. Is not advanced just different application. Amazon Lily girls used this since timeskip. Luffy wanted to learn advanced haki that he saw Rayleigh and Sentomaru using. Hyogoro himself stated that he didn't know that haki because was advanced.
And that advanced haki is only applied to CoA. Future Sight is the advanced form of CoO. By your logic if Luffy already knew CoO would be easy to learn CoA. But wasn't. He needed an extreme situation just like before to learn it.

Back to Ashura. I see only 2 scenarios. Ashura is basic CoC. Then Zoro once again would be the first Mugiwara ever showed a haki in pre timeskip. Which I like but it wouldn't make sense he not knowing this until now.
The second scenario is Ashura not being related to CoC. But Zoro used in an extreme situation. So he unlocked the adv CoC while using Ashura. He used at that attack but the attack itself is not adv CoC.

We actually have the same opinion that letting your haki flow isn't advanced haki but rather an advanced technique of how to use haki which you can apply CoA, CoO and CoC. Applying flow to CoO will give you island scale observation and being able to read and assess multiple ppl at the same time like Fujitora, applying flow to CoA will give you barrier haki and internal destruction haki and applying it to CoC is what Luffy and Kaido are doing right now
[automerge]1619702552[/automerge]

I'm aware that ID entails ACoA but that doesn't alter my point in any shape.

We actually have the same opinion on this so chill, no need to argue
[automerge]1619702609[/automerge]

Dude just accept that this whole thing is a mess. You forgot to made clear one thing in your explanation. If Emma is the only way Zoro flows haki that would explain why only 1 scar at Kaido. And would finally reveal that Ashura is only an illusion and Zoro had only 1 Emma not 3.

But your explanation of haki is wrong. Ryou is only haki. People in Wano are Samurai so they only use haki in swords and Izo at weapons. If you wanna say then Ryou is basic haki applied to weapons or anything external your body. Is not advanced just different application. Amazon Lily girls used this since timeskip. Luffy wanted to learn advanced haki that he saw Rayleigh and Sentomaru using. Hyogoro himself stated that he didn't know that haki because was advanced.
And that advanced haki is only applied to CoA. Future Sight is the advanced form of CoO. By your logic if Luffy already knew CoO would be easy to learn CoA. But wasn't. He needed an extreme situation just like before to learn it.

Back to Ashura. I see only 2 scenarios. Ashura is basic CoC. Then Zoro once again would be the first Mugiwara ever showed a haki in pre timeskip. Which I like but it wouldn't make sense he not knowing this until now.
The second scenario is Ashura not being related to CoC. But Zoro used in an extreme situation. So he unlocked the adv CoC while using Ashura. He used at that attack but the attack itself is not adv CoC.

You didn't get what I'm saying go sit for IELTS and then come back to me
[automerge]1619702799[/automerge]

zoro can use the the concept of flow, he used it in alabasta and in fishmen island
i do agree that enma draw all types of offensive haki aka armament and conqueror's, that's why kaido said that enma is a source of a strange haki
and i think that for zoro to make haki flow from enma back to his arm means that he already mastered haki flow

the concept of flow means that the user collects haki from the parts of the body that don't need it and make it flow through your fist/sword, it's an advanced concept thus giving us advanced armament/conqueror/observation (zoro could feel the breath of inanimate objects)

advanced armament has a quirk that differentiate it from basic types of armament like hardening, that is with hardening the sword will cut anything even if the user didn't wan it to, while with the flow the sword will only cut what the user wants to cut and will not cut even the thinnest of paper if the user didn't want to, proof that hardening or any other type of armament does damage regardless of the user's will is when sanji didn't protect himself from black maria because it will hurt her

zoro back in alabasta used the flow of armament and observation, his inner talent of conquerors hasn't been awakened yet, zoro called it the power to cut steel, he only used it with iai attacks like (shishi sonson) and (rashomon), zoro would only use them when he's very damaged or after deep concentration, it would boosts zoro's strength and speed and enables him to cut very tough things like dragon 13, sea train, tekkai, kuma, mr.1, and it also gives zoro additional speed in disadvantageous situations like being under water against hody jones
zoro's (shishi sonson) was equal is strength to kaku's (rankyaku roudan) and tougher than steel, and kaku could match it's speed, kaku has superior speed to zoro as we saw he overpowered zoro when he used his swords, keep that in mind

asura is an extremely upgraded technique from the power to cut steel, when zoro activated it his strength increased so much that he was able to dwarf kaku in every aspect, he turned kaku's strongest technique (rankyaku amanedashi) into mist with no effort, and speed blitzed him before he could react

how zoro creates Asura: zoro flows a lot of haki outside hid body as a barrier, and manipulate the shape of that barrier to create additional body part, but it should still be invisible, the most important thing here is that zoro awoken conqueror's haki and he used it unconsciously (maybe consciously but without realizing what it is, -it's established that zoro can flow all types of haki since alabasta-) to make that barrier visible

I was under the impression that he had Ryou pre-ts too but if you think about it; if he did Enma wouldn't make any difference because it's not a magical sword like most of you think it just helped Zoro use flow like the scabbards, hyou and oden did. Once zoro 100% masters Emma it will be like all his other swords

 

[Herrera95]

We actually have the same opinion that letting your haki flow isn't advanced haki but rather an advanced technique of how to use haki which you can apply CoA, CoO and CoC. Applying flow to CoO will give you island scale observation and being able to read and assess multiple ppl at the same time like Fujitora, applying flow to CoA will give you barrier haki and internal destruction haki and applying it to CoC is what Luffy and Kaido are doing right now
[automerge]1619702552[/automerge]

We actually have the same opinion on this so chill, no need to argue
[automerge]1619702609[/automerge]

You didn't get what I'm saying go sit for IELTS and then come back to me

Nowhere at manga says anything about flowing observation or conqueror.
Kaido and Luffy are coating conqueror not flowing. They literally said that, so if you want to combine hakis, this would be basic armament(coat) with basic conqueror. Knocking people out would be more similar to flowing conqueror. So that wouldn't make sense, Luffy already knew how to flow conqueror but not coat but he can coat armament and not flow?

So flow with observation would be Enel level of Mantra. But what about his reading people mind thing? And their subordinates having future sight but he doesn't?
Because Enel was reading Luffy's mind, that is why Luffy had the dumb mode(aka normal mode, pun) and that attack hitting walls without knowing where the punches are going but knowing it will hit Enel eventually.
But that chubby subordinate of him had future sight, when Luffy hold him and Sanji was about to hit he knew it would hurt.
It was just a mess. Also we have Coby observation at the end of marineford that is different, and that flashback at fishmen island that wife of Neptune reading people emotions.


Again, Hyogoro didn't know adv CoA. He only knew how to use haki externally his body, which is Zoro basic armament on sword, Amazon Lily girst using haki on arrows etc. Hyogoro can't break collars like Luffy did but he knows how to flow haki. So using flow with CoA is not what Luffy did.

 

[S.W317]

Nowhere at manga says anything about flowing observation or conqueror.
Kaido and Luffy are coating conqueror not flowing. They literally said that, so if you want to combine hakis, this would be basic armament(coat) with basic conqueror. Knocking people out would be more similar to flowing conqueror. So that wouldn't make sense, Luffy already knew how to flow conqueror but not coat but he can coat armament and not flow?

So flow with observation would be Enel level of Mantra. But what about his reading people mind thing? And their subordinates having future sight but he doesn't?
Because Enel was reading Luffy's mind, that is why Luffy had the dumb mode(aka normal mode, pun) and that attack hitting walls without knowing where the punches are going but knowing it will hit Enel eventually.
But that chubby subordinate of him had future sight, when Luffy hold him and Sanji was about to hit he knew it would hurt.
It was just a mess. Also we have Coby observation at the end of marineford that is different, and that flashback at fishmen island that wife of Neptune reading people emotions.


Again, Hyogoro didn't know adv CoA. He only knew how to use haki externally his body, which is Zoro basic armament on sword, Amazon Lily girst using haki on arrows etc. Hyogoro can't break collars like Luffy did but he knows how to flow haki. So using flow with CoA is not what Luffy did.

You don't understand what I mean you're not even trying to, you're not putting effort to even get what I'm saying. Where are you from btw, it seems you're not a native English speaker

 

[Herrera95]

You don't understand what I mean you're not even trying to, you're not putting effort to even get what I'm saying. Where are you from btw, it seems you're not a native English speaker

I'm from Brazil and I understood pretty well. If you are putting any effort than you tell me what I get it wrong.

 

[S.W317]

I'm from Brazil and I understood pretty well. If you are putting any effort than you tell me what I get it wrong.

So your native language is closer to English than mine you should understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that flow has nothing to do with haki category and can be used with all types of haki and you think that flow haki is advanced CoA, that's where we disagree

 

[draganax]

Advanced CoA is simply a stronger armor like Cracker and Katakuri but Ryou/barrier haki isn't advanced CoA. The internal destruction haki is also a form of advanced CoA

internal destruction is ACoA provoked by normal CoC to do internal damage, at least it looked that way in the anime when luffy remembered how rayleigh did it

I was under the impression that he had Ryou pre-ts too but if you think about it; if he did Enma wouldn't make any difference because it's not a magical sword like most of you think it just helped Zoro use flow like the scabbards, hyou and oden did. Once zoro 100% masters Emma it will be like all his other swords

enma not only exudes the wielder's CoA but also CoC that's why kaido talked about enma being the source of strange haki, enma is op in the hand of a conqueror, making use of both CoA and CoC to do massive damage, if zoro only has armament he wouldn't be doing as much damage as he did

 

[Herrera95]

So your native language is closer to English than mine you should understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that flow has nothing to do with haki category and can be used with all types of haki and you think that flow haki is advanced CoA, that's where we disagree

Like I said, I understood completely well, explained why you were wrong and explained why flow is only related to armament haki.

 

[BleakAsh]

Asura is most likely CoC in that lightning sparkles weren't spot.

Ryou was highlighted as the capability to Flow one's haki in a specific region(s) and unleash its potency.

Zoro currently might already possess Enma mastery, he definitely does possess Ryou and ACoC nonetheless.

He does possess barrier haki which wasn't highlighted as Ryou but not penetration Ryou probably, which is a very different concept.

if you compared Dragon blaze with Ashura when enma was the focus mostly... tgere is a slight nuance in yhe design.. which ked me to agree to Acoc is what was draw after manifesting ashura

 

[draganax]

Nowhere at manga says anything about flowing observation or conqueror.

it's implied, when zoro used the flow in alabasta he could hear the breath of everything, even falling rocks that have no will inside them, normal observation as rayleigh explained means to read the will behind every attack, and also read the number, movement location of the enemies (living beings)

Kaido and Luffy are coating conqueror not flowing.

it's the same thing

Spoiler

Spoiler

you can flow conqueror the same way you do with armament

 

[Herrera95]

internal dzstruction is ACoA provoked by normal CoC to do internal damage, at least it looked that way in the anime when kuffy remembered how rayleigh did it


enma not only exudes the wielder's CoA but also CoC that's why kaido talked about enma being the source of strange haki, enma is op in the hand of a conqueror, making use of both CoA and CoC to do massive damage, if zoro only has armament he wouldn't be doing as much damage as he did

Internal destruction has no relation at all with normal CoC. Forget anime, really. Anime is pure bullshit.
Enma was never told to have anything with CoC. Wano calls haki of Ryou but we have only saw they using it as CoA. So this is just head cannon of you.

CoC only doest extra damage when coating it like Luffy is doing right now. Nowhere in manga says otherwise.

 

[Rukusho]

From my understanding.

Asura itself is AdCoC (this includes pre-ts)

He's manipulating his CoC and making that into Asura the way Zoro sees himself as a demon deity (his will)

Zoro is doing the not touching thing but using that same haki and transforming it into Asura.