Speculations Sanji vs Queen General Thread
- Thread starter Dark Knight Sanji
- Start date
She then preceeded to defeat him though. Mihawk never did anything to Jozu or Vista in beating them in same fashion. In fact struggle to put away Vista yet he can defeat Daz Bones and Okamas easily. They are not same lvl and never were. Though while Queen lost, he still has a feat of being first to legit hurt an Yonko as even Big Mom is strong being without her memories as she swatted Luffy away like a fly despite him using Haki. So she isn't helpless even in that state per-say.
Best for Zoro, but nah. Been there, done that. Sanji is YC lvl and facing big times. It's stupid to think he won't get stronger.
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Best for Zoro, but nah. Been there, done that. Sanji is YC lvl and facing big times. It's stupid to think he won't get stronger.
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Actually Queen defeated Big Mom.
Their clash ended with Big Mom fainted again after Queen's headbutt, got captured, chained, and taken to Onigashima by Queen.
Still, defeating nerfed Big Mom is less of a feat compared to what Jozu did during Marineford (tanking Mihawk's slash and making even Aokiji's lip bleeding).
Their clash ended with Big Mom fainted again after Queen's headbutt, got captured, chained, and taken to Onigashima by Queen.
Still, defeating nerfed Big Mom is less of a feat compared to what Jozu did during Marineford (tanking Mihawk's slash and making even Aokiji's lip bleeding).
luffy before kaido
doffy
cracker
katakuri
kaido
then kaido again after training
law:
doffy
hawkins
another cheer-leading session in store or what?
people have cemented law kid luffy vs kaido for so long
wonder if oda throws a curveball for that reason
this is war . it may be like mf. several hits getting in from several people.
doffy
cracker
katakuri
kaido
then kaido again after training
law:
doffy
hawkins
another cheer-leading session in store or what?
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people have cemented law kid luffy vs kaido for so long
wonder if oda throws a curveball for that reason
this is war . it may be like mf. several hits getting in from several people.
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there's a high chance the alliance will lose badly at the fire festival (duh) , they will be taken by surprise by BM/Kaido alliance and there need to be more build up to Luffy vs Kaido, also more characters that were hinted to be involved in this arc need to appear(Marco, Vegapunk,Marines, Zunisha), based on that we are still far away from the real fights happening I believe, the Alliance will retreat after the fire festival
I think there will be time for more training before the main fights, at least for days like Luffy did in Udon, but this time everyone will train, so Sanji will get another PU along with the raid suit, maybe its haki related
with another PU for RS Sanji he should be able to high diff Queen without it feeling like an asspull
I think there will be time for more training before the main fights, at least for days like Luffy did in Udon, but this time everyone will train, so Sanji will get another PU along with the raid suit, maybe its haki related
with another PU for RS Sanji he should be able to high diff Queen without it feeling like an asspull
Because it essentially is fact. They're not going to be propped up as they have been to just be sidelined. They're going to fight Kaido along with Luffy.
"Plus their absolute prominence as top figures of their era," is a qualifier that you, yourself, stated above. Only Luffy, Law, and Kid have been portrayed together out of the Supernova. These three, with the addition of Teach, are the top dogs in the Worst Generation. The only thing that separates Teach is that he has taken the next step, the other three are going to. Law doesn't seem to be any lower in strength compared to Luffy than Kid does, and it is an absolute falsehood that he's lower in authority to Luffy and even more so that he "subordinated himself to Sanji". The entire reason all of this comes together is because of Law. The one who came up with the entire plan, that everyone else executes to the best of their ability, is Law. Everything that is happening is because of Law's authority, and Luffy's. To say otherwise, or to say that Law has subordinated himself to anyone, is patently false. To say that "he isn't special enough to reach that high in anything," is again a falsehood that ignores the fact that Law, along with Kid and Luffy, separated himself from the Supernova by portrayal even before becoming a Warlord, that Law is a coequal in an alliance with Luffy that has personally gained the ire of a Yonko, and that he was revealed to be a D.
They are his enemies, they're his rivals. But as shown with Roger and Garp and Roger and Whitebeard, you can be rivals and friends at the same time. Zoro and Sanji are not going to end up higher on the totem pole than someone that is exclusively Luffy's rival. Being on Luffy's crew does not mean you are equal to or greater than Luffy's rival, and not being exactly even with Luffy does not mean you are less than his crew. This is an offshoot of an argument that comes more from a place of trying to make Zoro and Sanji look better in comparison to Luffy's rivals simply because they're on his crew.
"Plus their absolute prominence as top figures of their era," is a qualifier that you, yourself, stated above. Only Luffy, Law, and Kid have been portrayed together out of the Supernova. These three, with the addition of Teach, are the top dogs in the Worst Generation. The only thing that separates Teach is that he has taken the next step, the other three are going to. Law doesn't seem to be any lower in strength compared to Luffy than Kid does, and it is an absolute falsehood that he's lower in authority to Luffy and even more so that he "subordinated himself to Sanji". The entire reason all of this comes together is because of Law. The one who came up with the entire plan, that everyone else executes to the best of their ability, is Law. Everything that is happening is because of Law's authority, and Luffy's. To say otherwise, or to say that Law has subordinated himself to anyone, is patently false. To say that "he isn't special enough to reach that high in anything," is again a falsehood that ignores the fact that Law, along with Kid and Luffy, separated himself from the Supernova by portrayal even before becoming a Warlord, that Law is a coequal in an alliance with Luffy that has personally gained the ire of a Yonko, and that he was revealed to be a D.
They are his enemies, they're his rivals. But as shown with Roger and Garp and Roger and Whitebeard, you can be rivals and friends at the same time. Zoro and Sanji are not going to end up higher on the totem pole than someone that is exclusively Luffy's rival. Being on Luffy's crew does not mean you are equal to or greater than Luffy's rival, and not being exactly even with Luffy does not mean you are less than his crew. This is an offshoot of an argument that comes more from a place of trying to make Zoro and Sanji look better in comparison to Luffy's rivals simply because they're on his crew.
Again, I disagree. The ones who have been actually portrayed to be the top dogs in the Worst Generation are Luffy and Teach. Teach not only is an emperor already but has been addressed as the one to be bet on by Urouge and Chinjao. Luffy has a bounty above the billion, a huge fleet, a crew full of brilliant members and at the end of the day is the one who will become the king.
But Kid and Law? Only because they happened to shine within a group of super rookies that happened to reach Sabaody the moment the Era was changing tells nothing about their actual prominence in the big picture of things. Since we don't know too much about Kid, I will focus on Law:
Law doesn't seem to be any lower in strength compared to Luffy than Kid does: Law not only didn't he have full confidence on his capabilities to take Doflamingo down (as he expected Kaido to do so), but at the end of the day failed to avenge Corazón by himself to a Doflamingo that didn't even need his awakening. Luffy, on the other hand, not only did defeat the Shichibukai but had an entire arc against a Yonko crew to keep growing and is currently training to take an emperor down. So Law should be significantly weaker than Luffy, and we can't really compare him to Kid because, as I said, we lack information.
and it is an absolute falsehood that he's lower in authority to Luffy and even more so that he "subordinated himself to Sanji": so where is his authority, exactly? Luffy keeps doing what he finds opportune so did Sanji. Law didn't want to get into a fight with Page One, Sanji ignored him, exposed his point and Law basically got away because Sanji said so. Law stated this himself.
The one who came up with the entire plan, that everyone else executes to the best of their ability, is Law. Everything that is happening is because of Law's authority, and Luffy's. To say otherwise, or to say that Law has subordinated himself to anyone, is patently false: the alliance started with Law because he wanted to defeat Doflamingo. Right now the Kozuki family (Luffy's promise to Momonosuke and Kin'emon plan) hold more weight than Law; he even apologized for failing to keep his identity as a secret as Kin'emon ordered. Sure, Law played a significant part as a mastermind when it came to Doflamingo and his part on Kaido's business, hence why Kaido wants his head too. But when it comes to Wano he hasn't been that relevant as an authority figure. We will see what happens now after defeating Hawkins and allying with the mysterious person; hopefully he will regain his relevance.
To say that "he isn't special enough to reach that high in anything," is again a falsehood that ignores the fact that Law, along with Kid and Luffy, separated himself from the Supernova by portrayal even before becoming a Warlord, that Law is a coequal in an alliance with Luffy that has personally gained the ire of a Yonko, and that he was revealed to be a D.: the problem is that all of this doesn't imply he will be an actual top dog at all. We're close to the end of the series and Law is below Luffy in everything, let alone Teach. Sure, he's a prominent pirate; we have more of those. But here we're talking about the Roger and Whitebeard of this Era, that's the standard he should be aiming to in order to rival Luffy and Blackbeard. And things aren't looking good for him.
They are his enemies, they're his rivals. But as shown with Roger and Garp and Roger and Whitebeard, you can be rivals and friends at the same time: but Law (again, I'll leave Kid out for now) isn't his enemy nor his rival; he's his ally. He has been for a long time now, do you expect him to become the Straw Hat's adversary? I have my doubts. Whitebeard and Roger weren't just friendly rivals, they were equally strong individuals with very prominent crews that were in a reputation war. Do you seriously think that Law should be expected to reach that position? When, exactly? When will he start making actual moves to reach the level of a Yonko or even above (since that's where Luffy is heading)? By Dressrosa his goals were small as he wanted to avenge Rocinante. He happened to survive and just kept the alliance since Zou, Kin'emon, etc. happened to be connected to Wano and Kaido. Seriously, when is he going to start progressing to become what Roger or Whitebeard were.
Zoro and Sanji are not going to end up higher on the totem pole than someone that is exclusively Luffy's rival. Being on Luffy's crew does not mean you are equal to or greater than Luffy's rival, and not being exactly even with Luffy does not mean you are less than his crew. This is an offshoot of an argument that comes more from a place of trying to make Zoro and Sanji look better in comparison to Luffy's rivals simply because they're on his crew: I didn't say that being on Luffy's crew means you're equal to or greater than Luffy's rival. I said Law is far from being Luffy's rival. Once he actually does anything that helps himself become a top dog instead of subordinating to Luffy's success, then he may stand a chance. Now, as I said, he lacks everything he should be working on by now.
Weaker individual, weaker crew and no fleet at all. As of now he doesn't seem capable of equalling Teach and Luffy, so why should I assume him to end up above Zoro and Sanji, exactly? Because you say he's Luffy's rival? Well, maybe I will begin to buy such statement once he stops being his ally and actually regains some authority within an alliance that isn't just about Doflamingo anymore.
But Kid and Law? Only because they happened to shine within a group of super rookies that happened to reach Sabaody the moment the Era was changing tells nothing about their actual prominence in the big picture of things. Since we don't know too much about Kid, I will focus on Law:
Law doesn't seem to be any lower in strength compared to Luffy than Kid does: Law not only didn't he have full confidence on his capabilities to take Doflamingo down (as he expected Kaido to do so), but at the end of the day failed to avenge Corazón by himself to a Doflamingo that didn't even need his awakening. Luffy, on the other hand, not only did defeat the Shichibukai but had an entire arc against a Yonko crew to keep growing and is currently training to take an emperor down. So Law should be significantly weaker than Luffy, and we can't really compare him to Kid because, as I said, we lack information.
and it is an absolute falsehood that he's lower in authority to Luffy and even more so that he "subordinated himself to Sanji": so where is his authority, exactly? Luffy keeps doing what he finds opportune so did Sanji. Law didn't want to get into a fight with Page One, Sanji ignored him, exposed his point and Law basically got away because Sanji said so. Law stated this himself.
The one who came up with the entire plan, that everyone else executes to the best of their ability, is Law. Everything that is happening is because of Law's authority, and Luffy's. To say otherwise, or to say that Law has subordinated himself to anyone, is patently false: the alliance started with Law because he wanted to defeat Doflamingo. Right now the Kozuki family (Luffy's promise to Momonosuke and Kin'emon plan) hold more weight than Law; he even apologized for failing to keep his identity as a secret as Kin'emon ordered. Sure, Law played a significant part as a mastermind when it came to Doflamingo and his part on Kaido's business, hence why Kaido wants his head too. But when it comes to Wano he hasn't been that relevant as an authority figure. We will see what happens now after defeating Hawkins and allying with the mysterious person; hopefully he will regain his relevance.
To say that "he isn't special enough to reach that high in anything," is again a falsehood that ignores the fact that Law, along with Kid and Luffy, separated himself from the Supernova by portrayal even before becoming a Warlord, that Law is a coequal in an alliance with Luffy that has personally gained the ire of a Yonko, and that he was revealed to be a D.: the problem is that all of this doesn't imply he will be an actual top dog at all. We're close to the end of the series and Law is below Luffy in everything, let alone Teach. Sure, he's a prominent pirate; we have more of those. But here we're talking about the Roger and Whitebeard of this Era, that's the standard he should be aiming to in order to rival Luffy and Blackbeard. And things aren't looking good for him.
They are his enemies, they're his rivals. But as shown with Roger and Garp and Roger and Whitebeard, you can be rivals and friends at the same time: but Law (again, I'll leave Kid out for now) isn't his enemy nor his rival; he's his ally. He has been for a long time now, do you expect him to become the Straw Hat's adversary? I have my doubts. Whitebeard and Roger weren't just friendly rivals, they were equally strong individuals with very prominent crews that were in a reputation war. Do you seriously think that Law should be expected to reach that position? When, exactly? When will he start making actual moves to reach the level of a Yonko or even above (since that's where Luffy is heading)? By Dressrosa his goals were small as he wanted to avenge Rocinante. He happened to survive and just kept the alliance since Zou, Kin'emon, etc. happened to be connected to Wano and Kaido. Seriously, when is he going to start progressing to become what Roger or Whitebeard were.
Zoro and Sanji are not going to end up higher on the totem pole than someone that is exclusively Luffy's rival. Being on Luffy's crew does not mean you are equal to or greater than Luffy's rival, and not being exactly even with Luffy does not mean you are less than his crew. This is an offshoot of an argument that comes more from a place of trying to make Zoro and Sanji look better in comparison to Luffy's rivals simply because they're on his crew: I didn't say that being on Luffy's crew means you're equal to or greater than Luffy's rival. I said Law is far from being Luffy's rival. Once he actually does anything that helps himself become a top dog instead of subordinating to Luffy's success, then he may stand a chance. Now, as I said, he lacks everything he should be working on by now.
Weaker individual, weaker crew and no fleet at all. As of now he doesn't seem capable of equalling Teach and Luffy, so why should I assume him to end up above Zoro and Sanji, exactly? Because you say he's Luffy's rival? Well, maybe I will begin to buy such statement once he stops being his ally and actually regains some authority within an alliance that isn't just about Doflamingo anymore.
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On topic: Don't see Sanji fighting Queen. Not nearly strong enough, and needs a raid suit to be competitive against mid level veterans. A leap in strength that much is pretty unwarranted and wouldn't be believable.
If you want to respond, better to do so in a PM or something. This thread is no longer the place for it.
That's not true at all. Law and Kid were portrayed front and center with Luffy as they walked out of the auction house. They were, the three of them, separated in front of the Marines and highlighted during a discussion about being the Pirate King. Law and Kid do not need to have a fleet at the moment to be considered as the other top contenders. Teach didn't gain a fleet until after he rose to the height of prominence.
Law taunting Doflamingo about Kaido had nothing to do with his lack of confidence in his skills. If he lacked confidence in his abilities, he wouldn't be attempting to take down Kaido and would have left after Doflamingo was beaten. I don't take Law's performance against Doflamingo as a grand assessment of his strength, as it has been previously stated in the story that (most notably in W7) circumstance matters. Law was out of his element against Doflamingo, as he was extremely emotional and angry as opposed to being calm, cool, and collected as he normally is. The personal nature of the fight was detrimental to him, as Luffy being confused and hurt by Robin on W7 contributed to their early loss before chasing her to EL (as noted by Nami). Part of the reason Luffy got destroyed by Kaido is that in his mind, he just watched half his crew get obliterated. I don't think it ends differenty in the case of Luffy, but it did contribute.
Law along with Kinemon told the SH's what to do in Wano. They followed those orders. While Luffy was in prison, Law was making moves to help solidify the alliance, which included freeing his crew, and resulted in destroying another Supernova. Lets not pretend that Law's authority isn't equal to Luffy to satisfy whatever preference you have, because it's been more than apparent that Law's a coequal in that alliance.
And continues because Law still wants to be a part of it. By the way, that's false. Despite what Law said on Dressrosa, Law's motivation was Kaido which why he presented it as such. Harming Kaido was an excellent way to precipitate the fall of Doflamingo, and vice versa. If it wasn't about Kaido in the end, and only was about Doflamingo, Law would have left afterwards. Law is every bit the authority in Wano that Luffy is.
All of that does. You said that he isn't special enough to reach that high. All of that is evidence to the contrary. Being part of the Roger/Whitebeard of the era absolutely looks good for him, if you consider the dynamic between Roger and Whitebeard and how it reminiscent of Luffy's (Roger) relationship with Law (Whitebeard). It's funny how you invalidate Law for not being at that peak yet while taking into account that he, and Luffy as well, have to grow into it.
Your assertion that Law is merely his ally doesn't invalidate the idea that Law will reach that level as you may think it does. Point and case, Roger and Garp were allies, too. After they beat Xebec, they went separate ways, were enemies, but remained friends. Going against Kaido and beating him is a move that puts Law on that path. Law will be approaching that notoriety and strength as Kaido falls, just like Luffy and Kid.
Except he's not far from being Luffy's rival, given that he was introduced as a rival to Luffy, and was highlighted as a rival to Luffy along with Kid. He doesn't "lack everything he should be working on," and he does not subordinate himself to Luffy's success.
He's not going to remain much weaker forever, as we'll see in the fight against Kaido. You should assume so because he's been portrayed to be in Luffy's realm, as Luffy's rival. You may not like it, but that's a fact, and it's something neither Zoro or Sanji can come near.
Lol. Garp being Roger's ally never stopped him from being Roger's rival. He has equivalent authority to Luffy in an alliance that was never just about Doflamingo.
That's not true at all. Law and Kid were portrayed front and center with Luffy as they walked out of the auction house. They were, the three of them, separated in front of the Marines and highlighted during a discussion about being the Pirate King. Law and Kid do not need to have a fleet at the moment to be considered as the other top contenders. Teach didn't gain a fleet until after he rose to the height of prominence.
Law taunting Doflamingo about Kaido had nothing to do with his lack of confidence in his skills. If he lacked confidence in his abilities, he wouldn't be attempting to take down Kaido and would have left after Doflamingo was beaten. I don't take Law's performance against Doflamingo as a grand assessment of his strength, as it has been previously stated in the story that (most notably in W7) circumstance matters. Law was out of his element against Doflamingo, as he was extremely emotional and angry as opposed to being calm, cool, and collected as he normally is. The personal nature of the fight was detrimental to him, as Luffy being confused and hurt by Robin on W7 contributed to their early loss before chasing her to EL (as noted by Nami). Part of the reason Luffy got destroyed by Kaido is that in his mind, he just watched half his crew get obliterated. I don't think it ends differenty in the case of Luffy, but it did contribute.
Law along with Kinemon told the SH's what to do in Wano. They followed those orders. While Luffy was in prison, Law was making moves to help solidify the alliance, which included freeing his crew, and resulted in destroying another Supernova. Lets not pretend that Law's authority isn't equal to Luffy to satisfy whatever preference you have, because it's been more than apparent that Law's a coequal in that alliance.
And continues because Law still wants to be a part of it. By the way, that's false. Despite what Law said on Dressrosa, Law's motivation was Kaido which why he presented it as such. Harming Kaido was an excellent way to precipitate the fall of Doflamingo, and vice versa. If it wasn't about Kaido in the end, and only was about Doflamingo, Law would have left afterwards. Law is every bit the authority in Wano that Luffy is.
All of that does. You said that he isn't special enough to reach that high. All of that is evidence to the contrary. Being part of the Roger/Whitebeard of the era absolutely looks good for him, if you consider the dynamic between Roger and Whitebeard and how it reminiscent of Luffy's (Roger) relationship with Law (Whitebeard). It's funny how you invalidate Law for not being at that peak yet while taking into account that he, and Luffy as well, have to grow into it.
Your assertion that Law is merely his ally doesn't invalidate the idea that Law will reach that level as you may think it does. Point and case, Roger and Garp were allies, too. After they beat Xebec, they went separate ways, were enemies, but remained friends. Going against Kaido and beating him is a move that puts Law on that path. Law will be approaching that notoriety and strength as Kaido falls, just like Luffy and Kid.
Except he's not far from being Luffy's rival, given that he was introduced as a rival to Luffy, and was highlighted as a rival to Luffy along with Kid. He doesn't "lack everything he should be working on," and he does not subordinate himself to Luffy's success.
He's not going to remain much weaker forever, as we'll see in the fight against Kaido. You should assume so because he's been portrayed to be in Luffy's realm, as Luffy's rival. You may not like it, but that's a fact, and it's something neither Zoro or Sanji can come near.
Lol. Garp being Roger's ally never stopped him from being Roger's rival. He has equivalent authority to Luffy in an alliance that was never just about Doflamingo.
E
sanji can't fight a yc2, it's too soon
he will fight against a yc4 in wano
then he will fight against a yc3 in elbaf
he will beat a yc2.5 in raftel
and finally a yc2 in the final war!
otherwise it wouldn't be beliveable
Luffy is the only character in the manga allowed to get stronger fast
well... actually law is allowed too, he can jump from yc4 to yc1 in one arc cuz he is Luffy's rival
he will fight against a yc4 in wano
then he will fight against a yc3 in elbaf
he will beat a yc2.5 in raftel
and finally a yc2 in the final war!
otherwise it wouldn't be beliveable
Luffy is the only character in the manga allowed to get stronger fast
well... actually law is allowed too, he can jump from yc4 to yc1 in one arc cuz he is Luffy's rival
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That be Zoro who facing Orochi who is YC4. Sanji is above him by far and facing Queen or King for his final opponent. Got stop confusing trash Zolo with 'Lord' Sanji like that.
If Luffy facing Yonko who one-shotted him easily and going to beat him, his crew won't be far behind especially Sanji who is apart of M3. He gonna be facing someone near that power by end of it.
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If Luffy facing Yonko who one-shotted him easily and going to beat him, his crew won't be far behind especially Sanji who is apart of M3. He gonna be facing someone near that power by end of it.