Versus Battle A Battle between the mightiest nations - Qin vs Chu

[Shanks]

Does the Qin have the 5000 men units ?

If you mean by that as HSU or GKH than nope. Same for Chu with Kyouyaku or that 10bow man.

Only there key generals, like strategist team of Kanmei or Rokuomi for Tou.

 

[Blackbeard]

If you mean by that as HSU or GKH than nope. Same for Chu with Kyouyaku or that 10bow man.

Only there key generals, like strategist team of Kanmei or Rokuomi for Tou.

Then i can't see Qin winning this if Kanmei and Karin are actually willing to work with each other and stop their arguing. the only capable men to execute Ousen's plans are Tou and Akou here, but i don't think they're enough.

 

[Patryipe]

Houken ain't a loser. Lol

Houken is a martial beast and i doubt if there's a clash between him and MouBu or Kanmei than either of them could come out unscathed as you believe in there strength.

He is though. Dude literally had PTSD from Ouki and died miserably discovering his path was wrong.

And I don't think Moubu/Kanmei would one shot but at the same time I think they would clearly win.

MouBu or Kanmei aren't out of earth. Yup both are super strong but than again they came in same level Ouki, Renpa, SHK, Tou, Houken, Gaimou, Ranbihaku etc.

If it's about brute force than Rinbunkun was doing pretty good as well (against Rokuomi and other one) but Tou destroyed him. Lol

You're just grouping a bunch of people together but when we are talking about duels it's clear that there a number of people who are clearly separated from the rest and are elite fighters. Moubu/Kanmei, Ouki, Renpa (I'll let you put Houken where you want) have been clearly separated from the rest.

You mention Rinbunkun. Ok, he's even worse. If the 4 mentioned above are tier 1 and folks like Tou and Yotanwa are tier 2 then he's tier 3. Rinbunkun is a Great General focused on martial might (not strategy and tactics), and yet Tou destroyed him. He was basically clean after the fight.

https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-283-page-14.html

(And yet he still destroyed both Doukin and Rokuomi, showing that you should never overestimate vassals v. fully fledged generals.)

Neither Kanmei oneshots any of Qin six nor he can do that.

How could that be possible even when MouBu is real benchmark of strength.

MouBu got compared with Ouki and SHK. Than Ouki vs Houken was already a extreme diff fight same as Moubu vs Kanmei so now either Ouki or Houken could push Kanmei to extreme diff as well.

MouBu in reality defeated Kanmei as well so there isn't any plot armour.

I've already replied above to Admiral. That was to highlight Kanmei's prowess, and anyway Akou & Co. are NOT Q6, so who cares?

Moubu got compared to SHK? Sure. So what? SHK is basically an Ousen/Riboku kind of general. He knows how to fight (unlike people like Gohoumei) but clearly he's NOT doing anything v Moubu in a duel because his focus is more on strategy.

Moubu vs Ouki could very well go to extreme diff, no problem. The problem is when you put other people on that level like vassals. They are not.

Moubu was basically done here. Had Kanmei just attacked him instead of talking he would have won.
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-313-page-3.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-313-page-4.html
Anyway, the point was to highlight that Kanmei is basically equal to Moubu and stands at the top of China in terms of martial might and cannot be killed in a duel by folks like Souou.

The level of complexity in OuSen/Akou's defensive formation and CGR's Shifting sand formation or whole existence of Rihaku is unmatched. That's why OuHon said specifically for OuSen's formation that it can't be broke down with brute force only.

CGR was RSJ left hand and was his "shield" we can expect him to use defensive tactics that are Q6 level and not far from Ousen, and his defense was destroyed by the HSU with brute power. Even Ousen defense ultimately collapsed to brute power when Bananji started destroying one joint after another and again Kanmei > Shin and Bananji.

One more fact, with just formations, Rihaku was able to hold MouBu for whole day.

Wrong. The fact is that Moubu did NOT want to break through the first day because he had an army made of peasants that would have been slaughtered. This was clearly explained in the manga.

Proof.

Moubu laughing at Rihaku at the end of the first day.
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-131-page-3.html
Start of the secon day. Moubu goes straight for Rihaku formations and breaks through w/o problems + the explanation from Ouki, Tou and Mouki
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-3.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-4.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-5.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-6.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-7.html

Had he an army of average soldiers instead of peasant he would have devastated Rihaku on day 1.

It's she. Yup Karin was clever and didn't went for Tou but to get his men past Kankouku pass.

But the difference between the number of soldiers was too big and Tou was short of commanders or generals thats why promoted OuHon and MouTen.

Difference was too big in coalition that's why made this battle scenario of equal armies.

True. But if one can overlook Tou not looking that good during the coalition then there is still the Chiyoyou arc. Tou was out of his dept and was about to ask Ousen for reinforcement when it took Ouhon five minutes after he arrived to come up with a plan to defeat Wei...

So I still give Karin the edge.

Akou and co. aren't going to duel with Kanmei but rather attack him on same time. Now if you're still believing that Kanmei can handle 5 vs 1 situation where Tou and Akou are available than i totally believes that you're overestimating Kanmei.

Not going to work.

5 v 1? Sure, why not 40 v 1? How many men are you giving to Ousen? There's only Akou (Makou is alive?) Souou and Shiryou. That's four. If you had random soldier you are going nowhere.

Random soldiers v. Great Generals.

https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-238-page-8.html

LOOOOOOL. Let's leave that aside.

You think Kanmei is gonna sit there waiting for the enemy to surround him?

*whoosh* Say goodbye to Shiryou. It's now a 3v1
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-314-page-14.html
*whoosh* Say goodbye to Souou. It's now a 2v1
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-314-page-16.html
And then it's the turn of Akou and Makou.

If they gang up their chances obviously increase but while they could land some hits they are not beating Kanmei who can literally send them flying with every hit.

Stop overestimating vassals. Elite great general are on another level. Geez, Shiryou was stopped by a bunch of foot soldiers ROTFL.

Here is Moubu with a broken arm having just had an extreme diff fight with Kanmei throwing himself into the sea of Chu's enraged soldiers and tearing them apart.

https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-315-page-10.html

The gap between a guy like Kanmei or Ouki and Shiryou is the same gap that there is between Shin and Gakuei, massive.

I should have elaborated more, I meant in a War type scenario. Someone like Rinshoujou would push Ouki to neg diff in a 1v1 fight, but would push Ouki to extreme diff or even win in War. Rinshoujou is not a martial General, so he pushes martial generals to neg diff in 1v1 fights.

Ou Kotsu on the other hand was a General who’s strength was based on his brute power, so I doubt there’s anyone in Kingdom who can

Ah ok, sure, I agree.

In general I also think than any war like scenario would go at the very least to high diff unless there is some kind of specific external factors like troop numbers or terrain and clearly does not depend on martial might only obviously.

Like in this case for example I believe that the Ousen army has no chances of slaying Kanmei head on but if they manage to wipe out the Chu army they would eventually overwhelm him and would still win...

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

SHK is basically an Ousen/Riboku kind of general. He knows how to fight (unlike people like Gohoumei) but clearly he's NOT doing anything v Moubu in a duel because his focus is more on strategy.

I’m going to disagree with this pretty vehemently as Shouheikun’s martial strength has been hyped many times by many different characters. Pre-Coalition War, he was said to be stronger than Moubu in terms of his Martial Strength. Then after the Coalition War when Moubu proved he was the unrivaled strongest man in Qin, people stopped saying Shouheikun was stronger than Moubu and instead people like Kaioku instead starting saying that Moubu had reached the level of Shouheikun.

Hype statements are mostly subjective but the Chief’s martial Strength has been highlighted a few times.

We saw Shouheikun’s style of warfare highlighted at Kanyou, he was very much the type of general who lead from the front lines, as that’s the type of general that Koushou needed as Koushou himself had no fighting ability.

Think Rinshoujou and Gyou Un, and that’s what Shouheikun was to Koushou. Accept Koushou also made Shouheikun a top tier strategist

 

[Guan Yu]

Think Rinshoujou and Gyou Un, and that’s what Shouheikun was to Koushou. Accept Koushou also made Shouheikun a top tier strategist

Gyou'un is a top tier instinctual general tho, only behind Duke Hyou and Renpa

 

[Shanks]

And I don't think Moubu/Kanmei would one shot but at the same time I think they would clearly win.

That's why at first i said its team vs Kanmei.

There's no way anyone of mentioned in the topic could duel with Kanmei.

Moubu got compared to SHK? Sure. So what? SHK is basically an Ousen/Riboku kind of general. He knows how to fight (unlike people like Gohoumei) but clearly he's NOT doing anything v Moubu in a duel because his focus is more on strategy.

Your understanding about Kingdom is great but still i believe you should make one more re-read.

In younger age, SHK was superior to MouBu in strength while still currently he won't be inferior.

Moubu vs Ouki could very well go to extreme diff, no problem. The problem is when you put other people on that level like vassals. They are not

For instance and if you believe MouBu vs Ouki could be extreme difficulty than why Ouki felt like avoiding Ranbihaku who's a vassal.

Tou isn't an exceptional case in vassals coz Ouki recognised him while Rinou made comment about his strength too.

Wrong. The fact is that Moubu did NOT want to break through the first day because he had an army made of peasants that would have been slaughtered. This was clearly explained in the manga.

I agree. MouBu was laughing at the end of the day and i forgot about that panel.

Even Ousen defense ultimately collapsed to brute power when Bananji started destroying one joint after another and again Kanmei > Shin and Bananji.

About this quote and up above, what's clearly the difference between defence tactics of high top tiers and than generals like Rihaku or CGR. Also @Admiral Lee Hung tell me if you agree with this or not :

Top tiers defence tactics that are currently showed by two persons on panel, first Riboku's Ryuodoryoku or OuSen's Iron chain wall formation.

Even GHM didn't knew the weakness of Ryoudoryoku and only Duke was able to break but that's thanks to insticts while a top tier strategist like GHM or Keisha didn't knew how to break it even by force.

CGR or GyouUn weren't able to figure out iron wall formations weakness while you know without Riboku's help even Banaji also won't be able to figure it out. OuHon, Akou and CGR commented that it isn't something which can be penetrate with normal strategies or brute force.

Riboku or OuSen's tactics are one whole different level than these other generals. CGR might be shield of RSJ or great defence general he ain't on level of his boss.

On the rest about 5 vs 1 and all vessel thing

Which one of these is normal soldiers or your average general : Tou, Akou, SouOu, Makou or Shiryou. Tou is GG while Riboku is commenting on Akou that he could become GG later on.

But that aside, its all about martial might and strategies to kill Kanmei. You think how these 5 can assemble at the same time or is it a joke. You heard about GyouUn's and his ten spears, a strategy devised by RSJ to kill martial beast like Ouki by surrounding them.

OuSen can definitely use this tactic and honestly saying these 5 will slay Kanmei pretty badly.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Gyou'un is a top tier instinctual general tho, only behind Duke Hyou and Renpa

Sure, but his Instincts serve to complement the fact that his main role in the Rinshoujou Army was as Rinshoujou’s sword. Rinshoujou himself had no fighting ability and thus this role fell to his subordinate generals, with Gyou Un being the strongest among them.

The Raigoku for example, a technique invented by Rinshoujou to slay great generals. It relies on Gyou’Un’s unpredictable instincts in combination with Gyou’Un’s fighting strength (along with the Rai’Un).

Shouheikun himself was the same exact instead of him being a top tier instinctual, he was a top tier strategist. But formations that Shouheikun can use like the Hourai or the Echelon, revolve around creating an opening for Shouheikun himself to slay the enemy General.

Shouheikun was promoted to commander in Chief because his strategic ability was top tier, but Shouheikun was not a Riboku/Ousen type general, he was a Gyou’Un/Duke Hyou type in the sense that he himself would take to the fight (though he could fulfill both roles if he needed). This is why his personal martial strength has been hyped numerous times over the course of the manga. Lol

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2020

OuHon, Akou and CGR commented that it isn't something which can be penetrate with normal strategies or brute force.

Here’s my issue:

Spoiler

Moubu has been hyped by Shouheikun as being someone who traditional tactics don’t necessarily apply to. Sure we’ve never seen him go up against a formation of Akou’s caliber, but we have seen Shin break through a formation of comparable hype and Kanmei/Moubu still have much greater brute strength than Shin.

So you have “this tactic won’t fall to brute force” VS “this man’s strength surpasses the use of tactics.” Lol

 

[Shanks]

Moubu has been hyped by Shouheikun as being someone who traditional tactics don’t necessarily apply to.

OuSen and Riboku's tactics aren't traditional. For instance Riboku's Ryuodoryoku wasn't even known to GHM or to many generals.

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

OuSen and Riboku's tactics aren't traditional. For instance Riboku's Ryuodoryoku wasn't even known to GHM or to many generals.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Go Homei did use the Ryudou against a Duke Hyou before the battle of Kankoku Pass? Wasn’t that the formation that a Duke Hyou retreated from? It’s just that Homei needed his watchtower to pull of the formation while Riboku could use it on horseback?

At this point, it’s up to your personal preference whether you think Kanmei could break through a formation like that I suppose. But let me ask you this:

Chou Garyuu’s Sifting Sands Formation was hyped as being “a defense worthy of a Three Great Heavens” and it was because of this exact formation that Chou Garyuu was referred to as “Rinshoujou’s Shield.”

Now, I suppose there are a few different ways of interpreting a statement like this, but when I read statements like this, to me it screams “The Sifting Sands Formation was the absolute best defensive formation that the RSJ army could muster.”

^If the above is the case, then this should theoretically put Sifting Sands as being of the same caliber as Ousen’s Shell and Joints (the one Akou used).

And yet, Shin and the Hi Shin Unit were able to break through the Sifting Sands and force Garyuu into a retreat.

So forgive me if you’ve answered this but I don’t recall if you have: If Shin can break through SS and all the stuff I’ve said above is consistent, what’s to stop Moubu from smashing through Shells and Joints?

 

[Shanks]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Go Homei did use the Ryudou against a Duke Hyou before the battle of Kankoku Pass? Wasn’t that the formation that a Duke Hyou retreated from? It’s just that Homei needed his watchtower to pull of the formation while Riboku could use it on horseback?

At this point, it’s up to your personal preference whether you think Kanmei could break through a formation like that I suppose.

Duke first retreated because there wasn't any point of risking life at that point against GHM while in case against Riboku, it was matter of existence of whole state.

Riboku firmly said no one can break it in one go and even KeiSha couldn't do it while Duke succeeds only coz of insticts. GHM, Ten or Riboku clearly explained why brute force won't be working here due to its complexity and it being like whirlpool to drown brute monsters.

“The Sifting Sands Formation was the absolute best defensive formation that the RSJ army could muster.”

^If the above is the case, then this should theoretically put Sifting Sands as being of the same caliber as Ousen’s Shell and Joints (the one Akou used).

The best defence of RSJ would be what he used to meet Ouki


Lol that's only a joke.

Considering CGR moves right after getting his formation broke were like its a bait while it was his subordinates hyping it up. While CGR believe that this got broked before as well to get hyped enemy traped in next move which shin got with Jo brothers army.

Formations like what GekiShin used against Riboku which later wasn't able to counter or Riboku's crane formation (broke by another great tactician OuSen, though his other generals before was helpless) or OuSen's iron wall (which Banaji broke through Riboku's help but great CGR and GyouUn were helpless) are still true defence move for me.
That's why i believe gap between Riboku Ousen and now GekiShin (which i got to see in re-read to find good vassals for @Patryipe and you were right mighty GG beast can get one shot lol) compared to Rihaku or CGR is big.

And yet, Shin and the Hi Shin Unit were able to break through the Sifting Sands and force Garyuu into a retreat.

So forgive me if you’ve answered this but I don’t recall if you have: If Shin can break through SS and all the stuff I’ve said above is consistent, what’s to stop Moubu from smashing through Shells and

You know Shin is brute monster too now coz he in nerfed mode defeated Houken and while breaking defence of CGR, he was in pretty good shape.

 

[Patryipe]

I’m going to disagree with this pretty vehemently as Shouheikun’s martial strength has been hyped many times by many different characters. Pre-Coalition War, he was said to be stronger than Moubu in terms of his Martial Strength. Then after the Coalition War when Moubu proved he was the unrivaled strongest man in Qin, people stopped saying Shouheikun was stronger than Moubu and instead people like Kaioku instead starting saying that Moubu had reached the level of Shouheikun.

Hype statements are mostly subjective but the Chief’s martial Strength has been highlighted a few times.

We saw Shouheikun’s style of warfare highlighted at Kanyou, he was very much the type of general who lead from the front lines, as that’s the type of general that Koushou needed as Koushou himself had no fighting ability.

Think Rinshoujou and Gyou Un, and that’s what Shouheikun was to Koushou. Accept Koushou also made Shouheikun a top tier strategist

Disagree with this. I'm sticking to my idea that he's another RBK/Ousen, not a Gyou'un.

Never denied they were comparable when young. Doesn't mean they still are now.

SHK calling Moubu the most terrifying general in Qin before the coalition
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-270-page-3.html
SHK saying Moubu is the only one who can surpass tactics with raw strenght
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-15.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-16.html

Kaioku said "if one were TO BE GENEROUS"
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-431-page-4.html

Moreover, we have seen how SHK handled duels.
Bending to avoid a glaive.
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-431-page-1.html
And taking out Duke Juuteki with two surgical strikes
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-432-page-13.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-432-page-14.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-432-page-15.html

That's exactly how Riboku took out Makou. Two surgical strikes. Top martial guys do not fight like that. Gyou'un would've cleaved Duke Juuteki in half.

Tou isn't an exceptional case in vassals coz Ouki recognised him while Rinou made comment about his strength too.

I'm only replying to this part because clearly this is the big difference in our arguments here.

Oh yes. Oh yes. Tou is ABSOLUTELY an exception. Tou is a top dog even among top vassals, let alone average vassals.

Here's a quick look at Ouki's vassals.

Doukin: One-shoted by Rinbunkun
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-262-page-18.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-262-page-19.html
Rinbou: First he was absolutely helpless against Shoumou, that was one-shotted by Ouki, then he had a fodder's death with an arrow
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-150-page-9.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-150-page-16.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-279-page-17.html
Rokuomi: Could avoid the arrows that killed Rinbou while fighting with Rinbukun, too bad Rinbunkun still destroyed him
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-280-page-11.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-281-page-12.html

What happened to Rinbunkun? Destroyed by Tou
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-283-page-13.html

Not only Tou is a much better fighter, but after Ouki was gone Tou was also the one who was basically in charge of the strategy, showing that he's even better than all of them even in that regard. Ryuukoku is the strategic advisor, too bad that at the end of the day Tou is still the one calling the shot as we have seen during the coalition arc when they were surrounded by Karin.

While Ryuukoku took comand of the center army it was Tou who remained in the HQ to command the entire operation
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-298-page-3.html

Oh, there's still Kanou... But what to say about him? His highlight is Ouhon calling him "weak" in terms of adaptability LOL
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-11.html

Not to mention that Tou was specifically highlighted by GHM and Reiou as the only Qin general without flaw that needs to be eliminated ASAP.
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-5.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-6.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-7.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-8.html

So tell me again how Tou is not special? The rest of Ouki's vassals are LAUGHABLE compared to him. All of them weaker martially, all of them weaker tactically, all of them MUCH weaker as generals.

The same olds true for Ousen's guys.

Akou is the top dog, comparable to Tou (although I'd still pick Tou over him), everyone else? Nothing special compared to elite generals. They are the equivalents of Doukin, Rinbou etc. etc. They might be better overall than Ouki's ones because with the story going forward there is some power inflation, but compared to top generals they are ants.

Here's Kanmei vs. a bunch of ants
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-310-page-12.html

 

[Elder Lee Hung]

Disagree with this. I'm sticking to my idea that he's another RBK/Ousen, not a Gyou'un.

Never denied they were comparable when young. Doesn't mean they still are now.

SHK calling Moubu the most terrifying general in Qin before the coalition
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-270-page-3.html
SHK saying Moubu is the only one who can surpass tactics with raw strenght
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-15.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-132-page-16.html

Kaioku said "if one were TO BE GENEROUS"
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-431-page-4.html

Moreover, we have seen how SHK handled duels.
Bending to avoid a glaive.
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-431-page-1.html
And taking out Duke Juuteki with two surgical strikes
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-432-page-13.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-432-page-14.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-432-page-15.html

That's exactly how Riboku took out Makou. Two surgical strikes. Top martial guys do not fight like that. Gyou'un would've cleaved Duke Juuteki in half.



I'm only replying to this part because clearly this is the big difference in our arguments here.

Oh yes. Oh yes. Tou is ABSOLUTELY an exception. Tou is a top dog even among top vassals, let alone average vassals.

Here's a quick look at Ouki's vassals.

Doukin: One-shoted by Rinbunkun
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-262-page-18.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-262-page-19.html
Rinbou: First he was absolutely helpless against Shoumou, that was one-shotted by Ouki, then he had a fodder's death with an arrow
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-150-page-9.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-150-page-16.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-279-page-17.html
Rokuomi: Could avoid the arrows that killed Rinbou while fighting with Rinbukun, too bad Rinbunkun still destroyed him
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-280-page-11.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-281-page-12.html

What happened to Rinbunkun? Destroyed by Tou
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-283-page-13.html

Not only Tou is a much better fighter, but after Ouki was gone Tou was also the one who was basically in charge of the strategy, showing that he's even better than all of them even in that regard. Ryuukoku is the strategic advisor, too bad that at the end of the day Tou is still the one calling the shot as we have seen during the coalition arc when they were surrounded by Karin.

While Ryuukoku took comand of the center army it was Tou who remained in the HQ to command the entire operation
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-298-page-3.html

Oh, there's still Kanou... But what to say about him? His highlight is Ouhon calling him "weak" in terms of adaptability LOL
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-11.html

Not to mention that Tou was specifically highlighted by GHM and Reiou as the only Qin general without flaw that needs to be eliminated ASAP.
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-5.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-6.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-7.html
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-381-page-8.html

So tell me again how Tou is not special? The rest of Ouki's vassals are LAUGHABLE compared to him. All of them weaker martially, all of them weaker tactically, all of them MUCH weaker as generals.

The same olds true for Ousen's guys.

Akou is the top dog, comparable to Tou (although I'd still pick Tou over him), everyone else? Nothing special compared to elite generals. They are the equivalents of Doukin, Rinbou etc. etc. They might be better overall than Ouki's ones because with the story going forward there is some power inflation, but compared to top generals they are ants.

Here's Kanmei vs. a bunch of ants
https://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Kingdom-chapter-310-page-12.html

I think you may have misunderstood me lol, I don’t think Shouheikun has brute strength on the level of Moubu or Gyou’Un,

What I said was that his overall martial strength was hyped as being on that level. Like, put Shouheikun and Moubu in identical scenarios and they could each accomplish the same things even though Moubu is more of a brute while Shouheikun is more of a martial artist lol.

Again, Moubu is overall stronger martially than Shouheikun. Shouheikun himself will tell you this. But we’ve heard enough about Shouheikun to put them very close to each other.

As for the battlefield itself, we’ve only seen Shouheikun fight on the battlefield one time, and he was personally tearing his way through the front with his men supporting him from behind. We have yet to see Riboku or Ousen do this even once.

Shouheikun was a martial general like Gyou Un or Moubu. Again, they both have greater brute power than him while he has more skill and athleticism than they do, but SHK and Moubu are overall comparable in martial ability.

 

[Shanks]

So tell me again how Tou is not special? The rest of Ouki's vassals are LAUGHABLE compared to him. All of them weaker martially, all of them weaker tactically, all of them MUCH weaker as generals.

It's not me who said vassals are weaker than there master or shouldn't be compared with them :

Moubu vs Ouki could very well go to extreme diff, no problem. The problem is when you put other people on that level like vassals. They are not.

So tell me again how Tou is not special? The rest of Ouki's vassals are LAUGHABLE compared to him. All of them weaker martially, all of them weaker tactically, all of them MUCH weaker as generals.

It's not me who said vassals are weaker than there master or shouldn't be compared with them :

Moubu vs Ouki could very well go to extreme diff, no problem. The problem is when you put other people on that level like vassals. They are not.

Then there's Gaimou. Everyone else? Not gonna last long. Especially vassals like Souou or Shiryou LOL.

I just said as a vassal there are guys like Tou or Ranbihaku who are martial beast as well. I wanted to make clear example there that it isn't just Tou who's special as vassal. Later found about GekiShin and KaiShiBoi too. They are all special.

Akou is the top dog, comparable to Tou (although I'd still pick Tou over him), everyone else? Nothing special compared to elite generals. They are the equivalents of Doukin, Rinbou etc. etc. They might be better overall than Ouki's ones because with the story going forward there is some power inflation, but compared to top generals they are ants.

Here's Kanmei vs. a bunch of ant

Akou is definitely below Tou but he's a martial freak as well. Not going in detail about SouOu but Shiryou is definitely not like Rinbo or Doukin. Lol

Shiryou put Batei on stalemate or more likely on defence without much efforts.

Call them ants or whatever you want but they are slaying Kanmei here in this scenario .

 

[Patryipe]

Ah yes, Batei. Another guy that would last... what? 3 swings against Kanmei? And I'm being very generous.

Batei is comparable to Shoumou, heck, he's probably weaker. What happened to him? One-shotted by Ouki.

Yawn.

Read the manga folks. This is like when some OP fans where saying that YC1 were close to Top Tiers before Kaido one-shoted Luffy.

Moubu is basically Kaido, Kanmei is very close to him and you are putting him against guys that are Marco level or even lower.