General & Others Continuation of my full analysis on why Wano has been a total failure (Oden's flashback)

lee33

lee33

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#1
#1
So this thread is a continuation to my last thread analyzing Wano acts 1 and 2 and how it was a total failure. If interested, here is my first thread: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/for...-has-been-a-total-failure-acts-1-and-2.21466/

But in this thread I will only discuss about Oden's flashback particularly his quest with Roger. I will continue to discuss act three and beyond in a different thread.

Before starting, I noticed a lot of people who like Wano pointing to how great Oden's flashback was and how it had great lore and that it was an info dump. But your best friend Lee33 is here to prove those claims as false and how everything we learned in Oden's flashback were events we already knew thus making the vast majority of the Oden's flashback as filler.

Let us begin, Oden's flashback lasted from chapter 960 - 975. It was 15 chapters long so I will analyze each chapter:

We start off with the boar subplot and how it was stolen. Throughout this chapter there were a lot of exposition about the boar and of Oden's character. There were long dialogues detailing Oden's character on how he is a womanizer, how strong he is and so on. This is basically the whole of chapter 960 so let us move on to chapter 961 which was again all about the boar subplot and how Oden defeated the boar--without a doubt a filler chapter so let us move on to chapter 962. This chapter is basically all about Oden forming his crew: Kiku, Kinemon, Ashura, etc so let us move on. Now in chapter 963 we meet Neko and Inu and they discuss how the Minks and Wano country are loyal friends which is something we already knew way back in Zou and here in this chapter we finally get White Beards arrival.

So let us summarize, first three chapters were a detail exposition of Oden's character and about defeating a boar subplot thus it took us three chapters to get to the heart of the actual Oden backstory--this is exactly why Wano is over four years long.

Now we are on chapter 964 and in this chapter Oden proved his loyalty to Whitebeard, we also are introduce to Toki and they set out to sail with WhiteBeard which is basically what the whole chapter is about. Chapter 965 is basically an exposition detailing Orochi backstory so let us move on to chapter 966. Here Oden, WB and Roger finally meet and Roger discusses about Lodestar Island and how he needs Oden to set sail with him in order to read the poneglyphs. Here Roger also says to Whitebeard and Oden that "he will be.." and gets cut off by Oda and we don't know what Roger says. This event highlights the same exact thing we learned during Ace/Sabo/Luffy flashback when Luffy said "he will be..." and Oda cuts that off too. So even after 12 years since Luffy has said that and over 500 chapters later Oda still thinks it is not a good idea to reveal this dialogue to us... okay whatever, let us move on. This chapter also shows Roger going to Skypiea and carving out the message we all already knew way back in Sabaody Archipelago so moving on to chapter 967. Now Roger and Oden go to Water 7 and Fishman Island and we see Roger and Oden being able to here the sea kings and how Shirahoshi is Poseidon which is something we already knew way back in Fishman island.

Also, I should add in this chapter was a clear retcon by Oda because Madam Shirley says way back in Fishman Island arc how she isn't able to predict the exact date of her visions and yet here we have her predict the exact date of Shirahoshi which totally contradicts earlier claims.

Moving on to chapter 968 we are finally revealed new information, it is very trivial information but new information nonetheless. It is about how Roger's crew were too early in finding the One Piece and that they were laughing. But let us sit back and analyze this new information:

We are in chapter 967 and the only new information we get is that they are laughing and how they are too early? Why was this minor information hidden from the reader for 967 chapters for? Why wasn't this disclosed way back in Sabaody Archipelago with Rayleigh? Us learning about this way back in Sabaody Archipelago would have changed nothing to the story so why did Oda hide this trivial information from us this long? There are a lot of questionable writing choices Oda has done throughout the decades but these types of blunders is what frustrates me the most. Why hide this minor information from the reader this long especially when it does not reveal anything that will spoil the mysteries of the One Piece? Just does not make any sense.

My next thread will be a detail analyze of act 3 and beyond.

If you find any faults or if you want to add anything in my analyze please share. Thanks for reading!
 
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Herrera95

#4
#4
As expected this thread was a failure.

Oden's flashback is the only GREAT act at Wano(Onigashima is act 4 and Oda just forgot the say it).

Yours complains are only about pacing which wasn't bad at his flashback and Oda keeping mysteries to let the viewer interested.

I agree that he could have said "Roger was too earlier" back at Sabaody since we only would understand why he was too early here anyway and would hype up even more our expectatives about a certain task needed to be done.

I would say Oda even rushed Oden's flashback since he could have worked better on some Scabbards like Kin'emon, Denjiro, the brothers, Ashura Doji and Kanjuro. Orochi's family hate could have been more developed.

And once WB gets at Wano is only good stuff behind good stuff. We still have Big Mom's imense hype since Roger avoided a battle with her and Kaido out of sudden doesn't seem so strong after almost getting one-shtted and dying to Oden.
 
lee33

lee33

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#5
#5
Herrera95 said:
As expected this thread was a failure.

Oden's flashback is the only GREAT act at Wano(Onigashima is act 4 and Oda just forgot the say it).

Yours complains are only about pacing which wasn't bad at his flashback and Oda keeping mysteries to let the viewer interested.

I agree that he could have said "Roger was too earlier" back at Sabaody since we only would understand why he was too early here anyway and would hype up even more our expectatives about a certain task needed to be done.

I would say Oda even rushed Oden's flashback since he could have worked better on some Scabbards like Kin'emon, Denjiro, the brothers, Ashura Doji and Kanjuro. Orochi's family hate could have been more developed.

And once WB gets at Wano is only good stuff behind good stuff. We still have Big Mom's imense hype since Roger avoided a battle with her and Kaido out of sudden doesn't seem so strong after almost getting one-shtted and dying to Oden.
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It is obvious you didn't read my thread because my complaints are not only about pacing. My complaints are pacing, filler and an unnecessary large cast of characters and plot-lines who end up doing absolutely nothing.

Oda chooses to make things a mystery not because the story naturally leads to them, instead it is because he knows his audience well and how easily entertained they are when he continues to add these filler mysteries. You honestly think that after 25 years of writing One Piece, the readers still aren't allowed to know what the void century, Vega Punk, One Piece, Will of D. etc are? As others have already noted, Oda continues to keep them a mystery because the entire story and sales of the series are based on these unknown mysteries. The hype of those mysteries are much greater than the actual reveal, that is why after 25 years the reader's are still not allowed to know them. And that is why Oda continues to add new mysteries to the story, "Nikka", "Luffy's devil Fruit", "Xebec", "Im", etc. without even addressing any of his previous mysteries.

You said Oda rushed Oden's flashback which is totally false. So Oda was rushing when the first three chapters of Oden flashback was of him fighting a boar? Or how about when we got multiple detail chapters of Oden dancing? If you consider Oden fighting a boar and Oden dancing to be rushed then we both have totally different expectations of what is relevant writing. And why would Oda need to 'work better on some Scabbards' when they have been completely removed from the story? He build all these scabbards up and then shafts them the entire second half of the arc. Why do you want Oda to waste our time even more building them up? Orchi's hate led to absolutely nothing except for some filler bomb plot, as if an entire fucking island crashing into Wano isn't enough.

About Whitebeard, you do know WB is a fanservice character. WB being in Oden's flashback amounted to nothing other than fan service. We learned nothing relevant about WB or Roger.
 
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Herrera95

#6
#6
lee33 said:
It is obvious you didn't read my thread because my complaints are not only about pacing. My complaints are pacing, filler and an unnecessary large cast of characters and plot-lines who end up doing absolutely nothing.

Oda chooses to make things a mystery not because the story naturally leads to them, instead it is because he knows his audience well and how easily entertained they are when he continues to add these filler mysteries. You honestly think that after 25 years of writing One Piece, the readers still aren't allowed to know what the void century, Vega Punk, One Piece, Will of D. etc are? As others have already noted, Oda continues to keep them a mystery because the entire story and sales of the series are based on these unknown mysteries. The hype of those mysteries are much greater than the actual reveal, that is why after 25 years the reader's are still not allowed to know them. And that is why Oda continues to add new mysteries to the story, "Nikka", "Luffy's devil Fruit", "Xebec", "Im", etc. without even addressing any of his previous mysteries.

You said Oda rushed Oden's flashback which is totally false. So Oda was rushing when the first three chapters of Oden flashback was of him fighting a boar? Or how about when we got multiple detail chapters of Oden dancing? If you consider Oden fighting a boar and Oden dancing to be rushed then we both have totally different expectations of what is relevant writing. And why would Oda need to 'work better on some Scabbards' when they have been completely removed from the story? He build all these scabbards up and then shafts them the entire second half of the arc. Why do you want Oda to waste our time even more building them up? Orchi's hate led to absolutely nothing except for some filler bomb plot, as if an entire fucking island crashing into Wano isn't enough.

About Whitebeard, you do know WB is a fanservice character. WB being in Oden's flashback amounted to nothing other than fan service. We learned nothing relevant about WB or Roger.
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You complained about pacing, pacing and pacing. Pacing = pacing. Filler = pacing. Irrelevant characters = pacing. Useless plots = pacing.

I agree about your point on fake hype and fake mysteries. But again, this is all about pacing.

Oden fought Mountain God in only 1 chapter. He danced only a few panels

We only know now that Scabbards were kind of irrelevant for the rest of the arc. But back then they were huge deal and we had good expectations for them.

WB is not that irrelevant/fanservice. It didn't add much but WB was the one who took Oden to seas and Roger needed Oden to reach Laugh Tale. WB is connecting Izou to Wano arc.

I would agree about Ace. He is 100% fanservice.
 
lee33

lee33

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#7
#7
Herrera95 said:
You complained about pacing, pacing and pacing. Pacing = pacing. Filler = pacing. Irrelevant characters = pacing. Useless plots = pacing.

I agree about your point on fake hype and fake mysteries. But again, this is all about pacing.

Oden fought Mountain God in only 1 chapter. He danced only a few panels

We only know now that Scabbards were kind of irrelevant for the rest of the arc. But back then they were huge deal and we had good expectations for them.

WB is not that irrelevant/fanservice. It didn't add much but WB was the one who took Oden to seas and Roger needed Oden to reach Laugh Tale. WB is connecting Izou to Wano arc.

I would agree about Ace. He is 100% fanservice.
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That is not what pacing means. Go look up the definition of pacing. With your broad definition of pacing, everything is pacing: Luffy fights = pacing, Fake hype = pacing, One Piece = pacing, void century = pacing, everything = pacing.

Oden did not fight Mountain God in only one chapter, and Oden did not only dance in a few panels like dude I gave you a detailed analysis of Oden's flashback chapter by chapter. You obviously didn't read my post. Why bother continue this conversation if you didn't even read the post. Deuces!
 
roronoa_fan

roronoa_fan

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#8
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Oden's flashback is testament to just how poorly written Wano is. It's considered by many to be the best in Wano and it's still bad. Oden is a terrible character, he abandoned his father and his people suffered for his selfishness, in the end all he did was try to fix the problems that his neglect caused and failed. And when it comes to Roger and Newgate being just an anecdote within the main plot, the coolest thing to see in Wano has nothing to do with Wano.
 
lee33

lee33

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#9
#9
roronoa_fan said:
Oden's flashback is testament to just how poorly written Wano is. It's considered by many to be the best in Wano and it's still bad. Oden is a terrible character, he abandoned his father and his people suffered for his selfishness, in the end all he did was try to fix the problems that his neglect caused and failed. And when it comes to Roger and Newgate being just an anecdote within the main plot, the coolest thing to see in Wano has nothing to do with Wano.
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Yep exactly. Oda had a great opportunity to have Oden's flashback being the best in the serious since it included Toki, Whitebeard and Gold Roger. And in typical Oda fashion he totally screwed it up. Not only did we not learn anything about the void century, one piece, will of d etc., we instead got exposition after exposition of how great Oden is. Toki was turned into a baby making machine for Oden. WB's whole dialogue in the flashback was about how great Oden is.
 
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Herrera95

#10
#10
lee33 said:
That is not what pacing means. Go look up the definition of pacing. With your broad definition of pacing, everything is pacing: Luffy fights = pacing, Fake hype = pacing, One Piece = pacing, void century = pacing, everything = pacing.

Oden did not fight Mountain God in only one chapter, and Oden did not only dance in a few panels like dude I gave you a detailed analysis of Oden's flashback chapter by chapter. You obviously didn't read my post. Why bother continue this conversation if you didn't even read the post. Deuces!
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No, I know exactly what pacing is. Fights are not pacing unless they are unnecessary dragged on like Raizo vs Fukurokuju. Fake hype is pacing because it doesn't add the story, so as useless plot.

Oden fought Mountrain God in only one chapter. And he danced only in a few panels. I don't know what you are talking about it is clear at tha manga. We can't have an argue about this.
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lee33 said:
We start off with the boar subplot and how it was stolen. Throughout this chapter there were a lot of exposition about the boar and of Oden's character. There were long dialogues detailing Oden's character on how he is a womanizer, how strong he is and so on. This is basically the whole of chapter 960 so let us move on to chapter 961 which was again all about the boar subplot and how Oden defeated the boar--without a doubt a filler chapter so let us move on to chapter 962. This chapter is basically all about Oden forming his crew: Kiku, Kinemon, Ashura, etc so let us move on. Now in chapter 963 we meet Neko and Inu and they discuss how the Minks and Wano country are loyal friends which is something we already knew way back in Zou and here in this chapter we finally get White Beards arrival.
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One chapter of Oden vs Boar.
 
Inzziuma

Inzziuma

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#14
#14
So this is supposed to be a "detailed" analysis?

Sure, forget about how chapter 960 showed us how extremely different Kinemon was before he met Oden, or how it officially introduced us to Denjiro and also his father. The importance of those things in the long run is something you can criticize, but you shouldn't just sweep them under the carpet. Same for basically every chapter... I mean, you stopped your analysis of a 15 chapter portion after 8 chapters.

Putting so much time and effort into something you hate is already making me shake my head, but if you really have to do it, then please go all the way.
 
Buusatan94

Buusatan94

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#16
#16
Kaido was totally right about Oden, and honnestly the people of Wano have every right to call him a failure given how stupid he was into surrendering to make a deal witj Kaido and Orochi and doing this stupid and cringeworthy dance.

Plus this guy is overhyped and overrared by the story, which fails to show us anything that justified his followers and Yamato's litteral worship of him.
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Honnestly I enjoyed the middle of his flashback (the beggining wasn't really exciting) before the dance that really ruined the mood and his character.
 
York

York

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#18
#18
"Buh buh buh the majority of the flashback only fleshes out the personalities of some incredibly important characters and tells the story of important events that happened to them, just like most flashbacks, instead of being a big fat lore dump that would not have any bearing on the events happening in the current storyline yet"
 
Pooth

Pooth

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#19
#19
Kiku said:
"Buh buh buh the majority of the flashback only fleshes out the personalities of some incredibly important characters and tells the story of important events that happened to them, just like most flashbacks, instead of being a big fat lore dump that would not have any bearing on the events happening in the current storyline yet"
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How are roger whitebeard and oden relevant characters? The only thing they showed was Laugh Tale we pretty much knew everything else and it is redundant having the plot say this and this will happen instead of the plot being creative enough to go there.
 
lee33

lee33

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#20
#20
Pooth said:
How are roger whitebeard and oden relevant characters? The only thing they showed was Laugh Tale we pretty much knew everything else and it is redundant having the plot say this and this will happen instead of the plot being creative enough to go there.
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Exactly! The flashback was completely redundant, it only showed things we already knew in the eyes of Oden and Gold Roger. What Oda did was use the fanservice characters to make it appear like this is some great reveal and the fandom ate it. We learned nothing new.
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Inzziuma said:
So this is supposed to be a "detailed" analysis?

Sure, forget about how chapter 960 showed us how extremely different Kinemon was before he met Oden, or how it officially introduced us to Denjiro and also his father. The importance of those things in the long run is something you can criticize, but you shouldn't just sweep them under the carpet. Same for basically every chapter... I mean, you stopped your analysis of a 15 chapter portion after 8 chapters.

Putting so much time and effort into something you hate is already making me shake my head, but if you really have to do it, then please go all the way.
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@Inzziuma I literally said in my post, "But in this thread I will only discuss about Oden's flashback particularly his quest with Roger". I couldn't talk about the remaining flashback because my post was already too long so i decided to talk about the ending of the flashback in my next thread.

Also, why is it important to know that Kinemon was different before he met Oden? How is that relevant information? Instead of wasting our time with Kinemon character, why not flesh out TOKI's! Toki is the important character, not fucking Kinemon.
 
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