Say what now? Have you not seen movies where the audience knowing things the characters don't know creates suspense? The entire Horror genre of movies and TV was created from this plot device.
If you think this situation can't create tension then you either think Oda is not a good enough writer to use this very basic storytelling mechanic or you've just not paid attention to this trope existing in almost every story you've probably ever seen.
Hell this has been used even in one piece MULTIPLE times
I would say Oda has adapted this method since long back when he was working on water 7 . He likes to keep audience in mystery regarding stuff but he is bangon in explaining stuff.
If oda was really poor writer forgive me he wont last long . Shounen jump is a cut throat competition i have seen good ones made downfall even with awesome plots that end up getting bad deal .
Oda plans up way ahead . Some of his plots are hidden or hinted in the past , You should read thriller bark many people dont really like that arc but one of the best ones in one piece . It hints two yonkos in future so much of hidden plots were unraveled and who thought bink sake has hint of laugh tale . I would say Oda is genius , If he was not mangaka he would be damn great writer .
I get your point but i do think traitor plot sure has some twist here . We all suspected a scabbard was behind it or shinobu . So whoever is the traitor is active person right ?
I have made lot of thoughts on the issue . It has something to do with wano . Dont you feel weird whole traitor thing started after toki arrived ? So i would assume someone wanted toki out of this and oden's plan to fail . Def this has more to the plot , thats why toki is screened out of this story because of her void century connection .
I mean Oda can FORCE it to be important of course. That's the easy part. What's hard is to make it people care about it emotionally
We are supposed to feel betrayed right? That's the classic version of a traitor plot line. The audience is supposed to feel as betrayed as the characters. You can add on thing like feeling Confusion or feeling indignation but the initial reaction is supposed to be feeling betrayal.
Do you actually see it possible for Oda to make you feel betrayed by anyone outside of the people who have been eliminated? Like is there any possible way another character can be revealed to be the traitor and you feel this?
I for one think no. And so that's why I proposed this gets over and done with in the flashback so that it creates suspense instead of this feeling of betrayal.
It'd be much better if we actually like set following the traitors story in the current timeline along with the heroes so that it creates suspense whenever we see the traitor pretending to be a good guy with everyone else in real time. That better than waiting until every character learns who the traitor is and starts feeling betrayed yet it's a real lame answer and the audience doesn't care
Say what now? Have you not seen movies where the audience knowing things the characters don't know creates suspense? The entire Horror genre of movies and TV was created from this plot device.
If you think this situation can't create tension then you either think Oda is not a good enough writer to use this very basic storytelling mechanic or you've just not paid attention to this trope existing in almost every story you've probably ever seen.
Hell this has been used even in one piece MULTIPLE times
I mean Oda can FORCE it to be important of course. That's the easy part. What's hard is to make it people care about it emotionally
We are supposed to feel betrayed right? That's the classic version of a traitor plot line. The audience is supposed to feel as betrayed as the characters. You can add on thing like feeling Confusion or feeling indignation but the initial reaction is supposed to be feeling betrayal.
Do you actually see it possible for Oda to make you feel betrayed by anyone outside of the people who have been eliminated? Like is there any possible way another character can be revealed to be the traitor and you feel this?
I for one think no. And so that's why I proposed this gets over and done with in the flashback so that it creates suspense instead of this feeling of betrayal.
It'd be much better if we actually like set following the traitors story in the current timeline along with the heroes so that it creates suspense whenever we see the traitor pretending to be a good guy with everyone else in real time. That better than waiting until every character learns who the traitor is and starts feeling betrayed yet it's a real lame answer and the audience doesn't care
So we follow the traitor along... And when he betrays the alliance, they get shock.. But we already know. Boring
You want that?
On contrary if we the audience know, at least the strawhat ALSO HAS TO KNOW. When the reveal came up. On contrast of feeling betrayed we feel hype because the strawhat know and they have prepare a countermessure.
I mean Oda can FORCE it to be important of course. That's the easy part. What's hard is to make it people care about it emotionally
We are supposed to feel betrayed right? That's the classic version of a traitor plot line. The audience is supposed to feel as betrayed as the characters. You can add on thing like feeling Confusion or feeling indignation but the initial reaction is supposed to be feeling betrayal.
Do you actually see it possible for Oda to make you feel betrayed by anyone outside of the people who have been eliminated? Like is there any possible way another character can be revealed to be the traitor and you feel this?
I for one think no. And so that's why I proposed this gets over and done with in the flashback so that it creates suspense instead of this feeling of betrayal.
It'd be much better if we actually like set following the traitors story in the current timeline along with the heroes so that it creates suspense whenever we see the traitor pretending to be a good guy with everyone else in real time. That better than waiting until every character learns who the traitor is and starts feeling betrayed yet it's a real lame answer and the audience doesn't care
We have no idea about traitors motive at all . So if they were in league with orochi why didnt they reveal themselves in front of oden's execution won't that be classic backstab but the thing is we have no idea of the motives or intention behind the traitor yet .
Either way it makes sense traitor wants the status queue in wano so betryal thing has to do more than the oden backstabing . This is all random guess in the end , i am sure this has to do with kozuki clan thing since they were the one to close the border .
Like I said, maybe Oda isnt and good wrter and can't wite such a story and make it good BUT IT WORKS. If you want I xan make a list of up to 100 stories where this type of to story works if the writers are good enough.
I'm actually surprised you've never seen suh a story. You must really not pay a tent ion to the stories you watch or read if you haven't noticed this before
We have no idea about traitors motive at all . So if they were in league with orochi why didnt they reveal themselves in front of oden's execution won't that be classic backstab but the thing is we have no idea of the motives or intention behind the traitor yet .
Either way it makes sense traitor wants the status queue in wano so betryal thing has to do more than the oden backstabing . This is all random guess in the end , i am sure this has to do with kozuki clan thing since they were the one to close the border .
So you're saying the motives will carry the reveal? Okay
Let's say WANDA is the traitor. Would you care? You can ascribe ANY motive you can imagine to why she would be the traitor but do you expect that wren he chapter comes out that WANDA is the traitor, the majority of the OP fanbase will feel betrayed?
Like I said, maybe Oda isnt and good wrter and can't wite such a story and make it good BUT IT WORKS. If you want I xan make a list of up to 100 stories where this type of to story works if the writers are good enough.
I'm actually surprised you've never seen suh a story. You must really not pay a tent ion to the stories you watch or read if you haven't noticed this before
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So you're saying the motives will carry the reveal? Okay
Let's say WANDA is the traitor. Would you care? You can ascribe ANY motive you can imagine to why she would be the traitor but do you expect that wren he chapter comes out that WANDA is the traitor, the majority of the OP fanbase will feel betrayed?
Like I said, maybe Oda isnt and good wrter and can't wite such a story and make it good BUT IT WORKS. If you want I xan make a list of up to 100 stories where this type of to story works if the writers are good enough.
I'm actually surprised you've never seen suh a story. You must really not pay a tent ion to the stories you watch or read if you haven't noticed this before
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So you're saying the motives will carry the reveal? Okay
Let's say WANDA is the traitor. Would you care? You can ascribe ANY motive you can imagine to why she would be the traitor but do you expect that wren he chapter comes out that WANDA is the traitor, the majority of the OP fanbase will feel betrayed?
If wanda was the traitor her character would make it more interesting right . I abs will believe most of the op fans will feel curious and puzzled if there is strong reason behind it . We'll just have to wait you are coming to rather hasty conclusion on traitor plot i am sure oda will deliver all you can do is have faith in story . If it doesnt deliver according to expectation then you have right to blame the author .
I am right now 85 percent certain of it . The traitor has independent motive they are not aligned with any group .
If wanda was the traitor her character would make it more interesting right . I abs will believe most of the op fans will feel curious and puzzled if there is strong reason behind it . We'll just have to wait you are coming to rather hasty conclusion on traitor plot i am sure oda will deliver all you can do is have faith in story . If it doesnt deliver according to expectation then you have right to blame the author .
I am right now 85 percent certain of it . The traitor has independent motive they are not aligned with any group .
How is this a troll thread?
I was just starting the discussion, it flowed nicely (look at first page) until a user suddenly started the first shot saying I lack patience, reading comprehension blablabla
Now since I have free time again, let me explain bit by bit about my points:
(+)
1. Oden finally dead
Yep, good riddance to this shitty character (he is fictional character anyway so I don't care if this sounds harsh). Also good riddance to "is Oden still alive?" theory which is dumb since the beginning.
Orochi: Oden died right in front of my eyes.
Oden boys: B-but what if Oden still alive and the 1 got boiled was the old hag (lol)
Good to know the one of only things you liked was something that was already confirmed to happen. Dumb theories are always floating around so pay no heed to them.
2. Flashback is finally over
Self explanatory. Hoorray the boring Oden Piece finally came to an end and we return to the current storyline. Agreed with dizzy here, I started the flashback liking most of the scabbards (Neko, Kawamatsu, Ashura, Okiku) only to somehow like them less after the flashback ends.
FB are the parts that makes the current timelines more meaningful and adds more weight to the characters. This was the FB relating to the only legend who sailed with both PK Roger and WB. Of course it wasn't completely from his perspective which is why there are so many voids relating to his journey.
3. Some younger scabbards' design are really nice (Nekomamushi, Kawamatsu, and Okiku)
I'm talking about these panels
right middle panel, child Okiku playing with Nekomamushi
4. Mystery of "who was Whitebeard's right hand man" got answered, it was Oden during his short joining to Whitebeard Pirates and Marco was still apprentice
Self explanatory.
5. No Lulffy for 13 chapters
Self explanatory.
(-)
1. Kinemon said Kaido wanted information about his journey with Roger -> result: Oda forgets the whole scene
But nvm, forget this panel and let's focus on Oden being a naive dumbass instead!!
Kaido could have questioned him about his Journey to the Final Island during his 3 days Prison time. But yeah, let's move on.
2. Toki, the survivor from Void Century was useless, but what's to expect from One Piece about its female characters
Self explanatory.
Sure she may speak later in future flashback either Toki Piece or Hiyori Piece. But topic in this thread: Oden Piece.
So Toki being Miss Background Character in Oden Piece stays true.
If Toki is gonna say anything regarding to VC, it would kinda ruins the feel for the readers who are waiting to find it all along with the real MCs for so many years. In my opinion, would you rather hear her say, "In my time Ds are reigning supreme and were suddenly betrayed by one of their own and the huge war broke out and ......"
3. Oden became dumb and believed Kaido and Orochi would just leave Wano like that after 5 years
Now don't sugarcoat it with "muh muh will be explained later muh muh Oda will have a mindblown plot twist about the motive, patience!!1" @Kingslayer style
Reality: motive has been revealed. It's a shitty motive. Which is at least fitting for this whole shitty flashback.
What part makes it shitty..?? Oden was a selfish man for better or worse from the beginning. He saw what his country had become on his absence and wanted to make it right in his own terms. Lets review What options did Oden had-
a, an all out war against the Kaido/Orochi alliance with the help of Wano. Sounds easier said than done. Imagine the casulties it would have cause. Both Kaido and Orochi give no shit about Wano. They can wreck all sort of havoc and use all sorts of dirty tricks to win the battle and if not win, completely destroy Wano and it's people and GTFO of Wano at the end with a heavy grin on heir faces.
b, Believe in them and hope for the best where no one else would get hurt. He also danced for his and his ancestors along with Wano citizens Sin against the Kurozumi Clan. Oden wasn't dumb he was naive and I can tell you Luffy would have done the same heck even Roger or anyone that cares for their people. Just cause Oda didn't wrote everything single thing in his bubble panels in Oden picture doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to comprehend what's the character is thinking.
4. Scabbards got sidelined so much (in Oden vs Kaido chapter)
Once again, topic is Oden Piece, not about future or whatever.
In this flashback, during whole Kaido and Beasts vs Oden and scabbards, the scabbards got sidelined so much. No panel of them showing off their abilities, Kinemon cutting fire, Raizo being ninja, etc (which is already known by now, so no need to sAvE iT fOr LaTeR). Suddenly, they got defeated and captured. Only bit shown was Ashura was stabbed in the back by unknown assailant (if it turns out as the work of Beast Pirates and not the traitor, why hide it btw? It can hype the said Beast Pirates easily, to be able to stab the strongest scabbard) and Raizo's face bleeding.
Umm, final battle against Kaido is still pending if you haven't been following. Just like Shinobu said, "maybe we will all survive and finish you off in next battle." *Chills*Anyone can be stabbed while distracted, insert" WB and Squad. Oda is keeping the details hidden but the facts say it all. 11 Samurais fought 1000 BP and Kaido with his calamities for hrs.
5. Not enough focus on Calamities, and 8 y.o. Jack didn't appear at all
Similar to point above about Scabbards, the Calamities also got no focus. Why the hell King and Queen shown in silhouettes, while we already know their appearance currently? On lesser note, why also they never appeared during the whole Oden's boiling execution?
(on positive note, I like that King did appear during the panel with prime Gecko Moria)
I think this was meant to be Oden's FB, even you said it was Oden Piece. Maybe Oda got tired and didn't bothered to draw them, lol. They were not much of a threat back then cause even with 1000 pirates they couldn't end the battle against the 11 Samurais sooner than Oden's unfairly fall.
6. Oden and retainers vs Kaido and Beasts felt very rushed
Rushed. Imo the war should have been made into 2 chapters. With more focus to Calamities and Scabbards, and intense moment between Oden vs Kaido. This is popular opinion I think, and maybe some people can explain this point clearer than me.
Rushed..!! I mean there was a thread about FB being dragged out for too long. Some People never get pleased. And 2 chapters to decide the outcome of the battle we already know the end results of. Kaido will have to remember his intense moments with Oden when he will finally be put down. No war of the past has been drawn in full scale. Can't you see, all the hype about King, Queen, Kaido battle against him/them, etc will be over if we see what they can do and how they do. Calmaties and Scabbards were no where near their prime at that battle. We will soon see their battle and abilities to the fullest when they finally collide after 20yrs. Doesn't this hype you up enough to let go of such petty things..?? Well if their future battle is rushed, come back here and give me and @Kingslayer our Ls for calling you impatience.
7. No hint about traitor at all
Self explanatory. Well this point is indeed a personal expectation.
This right here is what makes this a troll thread. If you have any opinions that differs from others, try to even it out or at the least avoid it. Don't go on hiding B-but or any other bullshit excuses. :cheers:
Well every horror movie works with the premise of the viewers knowing things that the character doesn't... All the paranormal activity movies, all the scream movies, all the Halloween movies.... that's about 15 movies there.... We always know the monster is right around the corner while the character doesn't and that creates suspense...
notice that's just THREE popular horror franchises but don't be mistaken, I can go through all of them and then branch off to thriller movies or suspence movies or crime movies then I can go to comics and tv shows and keep going. ALSO notice that these are all genres whose primary source of entertainment is TENSION.... They all use this plot device specifically to build tension.... But you are so sure that it's impossible to do this despite it happening for at least hundreds of years of storytelling
In one piece a recent example is mother caramel who we the readers are told very early on is a slave trader while big mom does know until now. This reveal held so much tension that people were making theories that Big mom would find out about this in present day and FREAKING THE FUCK OUT.... There was established tension in the readers because they knew a thing that a character didn't know.... This even applies to momma eating all her family as a kid ehich up to now people bring up is a ticking time bomb with her character.... Ticking time bombs are the definition of TENSION
I mean honestly bro it's getting ridiculous how little faith you have in Oda to pull off such a simple and effective story telling mechanic
But there will be no real sense of betrayal. Like I said, confusion and whatnot can come afterwards but a traitor storyline is immediately supposed to create a sense of betrayal if its done this way and I cannot believe I would feel betrayed by one at this point unless it's one of the people who have already been eliminated from this list
Well every horror movie works with the premise of the viewers knowing things that the character doesn't... All the paranormal activity movies, all the scream movies, all the Halloween movies.... that's about 15 movies there.... We always know the monster is right around the corner while the character doesn't and that creates suspense...
notice that's just THREE popular horror franchises but don't be mistaken, I can go through all of them and then branch off to thriller movies or suspence movies or crime movies then I can go to comics and tv shows and keep going. ALSO notice that these are all genres whose primary source of entertainment is TENSION.... They all use this plot device specifically to build tension.... But you are so sure that it's impossible to do this despite it happening for at least hundreds of years of storytelling
In one piece a recent example is mother caramel who we the readers are told very early on is a slave trader while big mom does know until now. This reveal held so much tension that people were making theories that Big mom would find out about this in present day and FREAKING THE FUCK OUT.... There was established tension in the readers because they knew a thing that a character didn't know.... This even applies to momma eating all her family as a kid ehich up to now people bring up is a ticking time bomb with her character.... Ticking time bombs are the definition of TENSION
I mean honestly bro it's getting ridiculous how little faith you have in Oda to pull off such a simple and effective story telling mechanic
You want me to go out of horror? Okay
There's breaking bad then. That's a crime story about about a man who betrays his family and friends while running an a crime syndicate.
Again we know from the beginning that hes the bad guy and yet everyone else he's betaying don't find out for FOUR SEASONS
Also big mom's flashback FOLLOWS BIG MOM doesn't it?
Hehehe... I can see you want to run away from this and it's fine. Just pay more attention to the stories you consume because I know for a fact that you've come across this trope being used and you liked it too but you just don't remember it now and can't believe your head canon about what one piece should be like could be wrong
You want me to go out of horror? Okay
There's breaking bad then. That's a crime story about about a man who betrays his family and friends while running an a crime syndicate.
Again we know from the beginning that hes the bad guy and yet everyone else he's betaying don't find out for FOUR SEASONS
Also big mom's flashback FOLLOWS BIG MOM doesn't it?
Hehehe... I can see you want to run away from this and it's fine. Just pay more attention to the stories you consume because I know for a fact that you've come across this trope being used and you liked it too but you just don't remember it now and can't believe your head canon about what one piece should be like could be wrong
Well every horror movie works with the premise of the viewers knowing things that the character doesn't... All the paranormal activity movies, all the scream movies, all the Halloween movies.... that's about 15 movies there.... We always know the monster is right around the corner while the character doesn't and that creates suspense...
notice that's just THREE popular horror franchises but don't be mistaken, I can go through all of them and then branch off to thriller movies or suspence movies or crime movies then I can go to comics and tv shows and keep going. ALSO notice that these are all genres whose primary source of entertainment is TENSION.... They all use this plot device specifically to build tension.... But you are so sure that it's impossible to do this despite it happening for at least hundreds of years of storytelling
In one piece a recent example is mother caramel who we the readers are told very early on is a slave trader while big mom does know until now. This reveal held so much tension that people were making theories that Big mom would find out about this in present day and FREAKING THE FUCK OUT.... There was established tension in the readers because they knew a thing that a character didn't know.... This even applies to momma eating all her family as a kid ehich up to now people bring up is a ticking time bomb with her character.... Ticking time bombs are the definition of TENSION
I mean honestly bro it's getting ridiculous how little faith you have in Oda to pull off such a simple and effective story telling mechanic
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But there will be no real sense of betrayal. Like I said, confusion and whatnot can come afterwards but a traitor storyline is immediately supposed to create a sense of betrayal if its done this way and I cannot believe I would feel betrayed by one at this point unless it's one of the people who have already been eliminated from this list
Still dont get the point . What is it you expected traitor to be revealed and we dont need suspense ? like i said before we stilll have no idea about intent nature on why traitor is selling out ? So the plot is not done yet because they are in present as well so the resolve should be in present timeline right ?
Untill then we are just entering into speculative part of the story . Maybe it ll make sense once traitor is revealed untill then we can just theorize or speculate .
Have you actually watched Breaking bad if you did what is the connection you are trying to make here ?
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Still dont get the point . What is it you expected traitor to be revealed and we dont need suspense ? like i said before we stilll have no idea about intent nature on why traitor is selling out ? So the plot is not done yet because they are in present as well so the resolve should be in present timeline right ?
Untill then we are just entering into speculative part of the story . Maybe it ll make sense once traitor is revealed untill then we can just theorize or speculate .
The guy I'm arguing with is saying its impossible to create tension when the traitor is revealed to the readers yet it hasn't been revealed to the characters
I said that's not true because this is literally a trope in fiction. Like the mere fact that it's a literal trope means that it's such a common and pervasive thing that it happens almost everywhere without people even thinking about it. The entire Horror genre was built on this trope where tension is created from the readers knowing things that the characters don't know.
Breaking bad built four seasons of tension around this for example the scene when Hank literally pulls out a bag of Walter's millions of drug money and helps him carry it to the house. The tension here specifically exists because the reader knows something that the character doesn't. (Yes I'm being specific because you seem to think I talk about things I don't know)
My suggestion from the start was that the traitor should just be revealed to the readers already because it's not really gonna be so emotional to begin with and so this would give Oda the opportunity of instead write a story following the traitor while he pretends to be a good guy and the tension would come from that. The readers know he's the traitor while the heroes don't know and that could immediately lead to compelling situations other than waiting until the last minute to reveal it and yet the person isn't important enough for anyone to care
The guy I'm arguing with is saying its impossible to create tension when the traitor is revealed to the readers yet it hasn't been revealed to the characters
I said that's not true because this is literally a trope in fiction. Like the mere fact that it's a literal trope means that it's such a common and pervasive thing that it happens almost everywhere without people even thinking about it. The entire Horror genre was built on this trope where tension is created from the readers knowing things that the characters don't know.
Breaking bad built four seasons of tension around this for example the scene when Hank literally pulls out a bag of Walter's millions of drug money and helps him carry it to the house. The tension here specifically exists because the reader knows something that the character doesn't. (Yes I'm being specific because you seem to think I talk about things I don't know)
My suggestion from the start was that the traitor should just be revealed to the readers already because it's not really gonna be so emotional to begin with and so this would give Oda the opportunity of instead writING a story following the traitor while he pretends to be a good guy and the tension would come from that. The readers know he's the traitor while the heroes don't know and that could immediately lead to compelling situations other than waiting until the last minute to reveal it and yet the person isn't important enough for anyone to care
7/10
It was interesting overall and I wouldn't call any of it boring , but I really think it didn't even come close to how great it could have been.Roger vs Whitebeard was disgustingly short for real.We finally get to see the pirate king fight and this is all we get? It's not like we will get to see much more of him from now on.
I am not only disappointed because of the fights but also because of the general lack of Roger in comparison to Whitebeard.I wanted to see more of him and get to know his character better.
Toki was legitimately trash.It seems Oda really can't write female characters.Orochi remains the complete opposite of "charismatic" and to be honest , his backstory wasn't innovative at all.We won't be getting Doflamingos from now on I guess.
As for Kaido , he will be fleshed out later , but he still just looks like a power-hungry brute.I want villains to be more complex and he really lacks that so far.
That's all there is to it.
And ended up saying this ^ showcases you either a) have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about
or
b)trying to really hard to justify the 8-9/10 rating you gave this flashback.
A lot of things have been said about Oden and rightfully so, for one dude kept making nonsensical promises with Orochi/Kaido despite those two continuing to laugh it off and betray him anyways. But for you to brush off Toki as only needing “a bit more” to be fleshed out despite that being one of the most glaring issues if not the most glaring issue of the flashback is ludicrous.
Toki was basically a character looming in the background for the majority of this flashback, tending to her children on the Moby Dick and contributing absolutely nothing else worth of note to the narrative. Got a lame integration into the flashback and proved to be nothing different than your typical OP female character despite being introduced to be someone from the Void Century.
You’d expect Oda to use that as an opportunity to give us a window into the Void Century lore, yet not only did we not get anything of the sort...Toki just failed miserably to meet the most basic expectations for her character to begin with, when her only notable and defining character moment involved getting orders from Oden, that prophecy shit that seemed to be hers wasn’t even from her despite everyone expecting so, which caps off the biggest letdown that was Toki.
It gets even worse when that shit is seemingly about to be offpaneled. You could have removed the VC lore and nothing would have changed with her character.
I honestly do not know what Oda was thinking when he came up with a character like Toki. I also do not know what you were thinking when you said she only needed “a bit more” implying that she had done anything significant in this flashback to begin with.
And ended up saying this ^ showcases you either a) have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about
or
b)trying to really hard to justify the 8-9/10 rating you gave this flashback.
A lot of things have been said about Oden and rightfully so, for one dude kept making nonsensical promises with Orochi/Kaido despite those two continuing to laugh it off and betray him anyways. But for you to brush off Toki as only needing “a bit more” to be fleshed out despite that being one of the most glaring issues if not the most glaring issue of the flashback is ludicrous.
Toki was basically a character looming in the background for the majority of this flashback, tending to her children on the Moby Dick and contributing absolutely nothing else worth of note to the narrative. Got a lame integration into the flashback and proved to be nothing different than your typical OP female character despite being introduced to be someone from the Void Century.
You’d expect Oda to use that as an opportunity to give us a window into the Void Century lore, yet not only did we not get anything of the sort...Toki just failed miserably to meet the most basic expectations for her character to begin with, when her only notable and defining character moment involved getting orders from Oden, that prophecy shit that seemed to be hers wasn’t even from her despite everyone expecting so, which caps off the biggest letdown that was Toki.
It gets even worse when that shit is seemingly about to be offpaneled. You could have removed the VC lore and nothing would have changed with her character.
I honestly do not know what Oda was thinking when he came up with a character like Toki. I also do not know what you were thinking when you said she only needed “a bit more” implying that she had done anything significant in this flashback to begin with.
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Anyone can be stabbed while distracted, insert" WB and Squad. Oda is keeping the details hidden but the facts say it all. 11 Samurais fought 1000 BP and Kaido with his calamities for hrs. 
