Great Generals Tournament, Winners R1 - Round 2
- Thread starter Elder Lee Hung
- Start date
Idk how YTW has more votes than Riboku.
Riboku is the clear answer. He's displayed better strategies and knowledge of plains warfare than YTW has at this point.
In terms of portrayal:
- Riboku is the greatest obstacle in the path of Qin for unification. (And even historically, that obstacle was only gotten past due to the incompetence of the Zhao King, something that seems to be building up again here in the manga)
- Ribokus combat strength while it might not be the biggest. He did have a chapter dedicated to him called "warrior" or "Body of a warrior". Along with the scars that foreshadowed his potential high combat strength whenever it gets revealed.
Riboku is taking the W with any current general in a sheer face to face if they have about even forces.
This should be a very high-diff war nonetheless as the King of King is great herself.
Riboku is the clear answer. He's displayed better strategies and knowledge of plains warfare than YTW has at this point.
In terms of portrayal:
- Riboku is the greatest obstacle in the path of Qin for unification. (And even historically, that obstacle was only gotten past due to the incompetence of the Zhao King, something that seems to be building up again here in the manga)
- Ribokus combat strength while it might not be the biggest. He did have a chapter dedicated to him called "warrior" or "Body of a warrior". Along with the scars that foreshadowed his potential high combat strength whenever it gets revealed.
Riboku is taking the W with any current general in a sheer face to face if they have about even forces.
This should be a very high-diff war nonetheless as the King of King is great herself.
Simply because Mountain warriors together make the difference.
I mean if both Riboku or YTW are commanding 1,00,000 Zhou forces. Riboku is certain to come out victor. But this time Riboku forces are lacking Strong martial Generals(only Banaji) and inferior forces, while YTW has unstoppable Bajio and others i.e Danto, Kitari, Katari, Tajifu, Shunmen, and superior Mountain warriors that are but suicidal maniacs, that have proven to overcome impossible scenarios, if YTW commands em to, refer past posts.
Look what a mere sight of YTW on a horse, do to em.
I mean if both Riboku or YTW are commanding 1,00,000 Zhou forces. Riboku is certain to come out victor. But this time Riboku forces are lacking Strong martial Generals(only Banaji) and inferior forces, while YTW has unstoppable Bajio and others i.e Danto, Kitari, Katari, Tajifu, Shunmen, and superior Mountain warriors that are but suicidal maniacs, that have proven to overcome impossible scenarios, if YTW commands em to, refer past posts.
Look what a mere sight of YTW on a horse, do to em.
Frankly Riboku’s “portrayal” being > YTW’s is questionable as Yo Tan Wa has been portrayed as a King among Kings like Sei, she united the mountain tribes of Qin which hasn’t been done in China’s thousand year history lol.
But even if Riboku is > ytw as a general, the mountain tribes are such a disgustingly strong army that it really doesn’t matter. A standard Zhao army isn’t beating them in open war, and Riboku’s subordinates aren’t enough to bridge the gap tbh.
But even if Riboku is > ytw as a general, the mountain tribes are such a disgustingly strong army that it really doesn’t matter. A standard Zhao army isn’t beating them in open war, and Riboku’s subordinates aren’t enough to bridge the gap tbh.
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Yup and nobody deploys them better than Riboku. Idk what you are pointing to by mentioning the Shukai plains.
Riboku - Historically is the greatest obstacle Qin had to overcome to unify china. And they did so by not overcoming Riboku directly but by manipulating the Zhao court which screwed over Riboku. He is the greatest general of the warring states era, until Ousen hits his peak (and even then its debatable).
Similarly Riboku in the manga has already been stated to be the biggest obstacle in Qins unification. They overcame him in the first war now (Riboku being backed by a King who is absolutely doing nothing). Renpa was the only one individual who was put on his level and that man no longer is in the game. No other general of his caliber is there right now.
Riboku - Historically is the greatest obstacle Qin had to overcome to unify china. And they did so by not overcoming Riboku directly but by manipulating the Zhao court which screwed over Riboku. He is the greatest general of the warring states era, until Ousen hits his peak (and even then its debatable).
Similarly Riboku in the manga has already been stated to be the biggest obstacle in Qins unification. They overcame him in the first war now (Riboku being backed by a King who is absolutely doing nothing). Renpa was the only one individual who was put on his level and that man no longer is in the game. No other general of his caliber is there right now.
There is nothing in YTW's or any other general's portrayal at the moment that puts them on par in portrayal with the man they call Ri Boku.
YTW is the king of kings because she knows how to rule the people well, which is what that line was far. She is a fantastic leader, as evident by the cheering of the mountain people when she takes front stage along with uniting diff tribes under her and making them prosper.
This however is absolutely irrelevant to warfare. Riboku as the prime minister of Zhao, made Zhao pretty much near indestructible to Qin's invasion, while not having the full support of his king. The moment he saw Qins potential invasion coming in, he negated it fast. The moment he saw what SHK was aiming for by Sanyou, he negated it fast. In the current Zhao arc he had strategies for multiple battlefields, doing the most out of any general in this war arc.
I'm sure you're already aware of the tons of panels about Riboku being the top guy that exist in the manga.
YTW is the king of kings because she knows how to rule the people well, which is what that line was far. She is a fantastic leader, as evident by the cheering of the mountain people when she takes front stage along with uniting diff tribes under her and making them prosper.
This however is absolutely irrelevant to warfare. Riboku as the prime minister of Zhao, made Zhao pretty much near indestructible to Qin's invasion, while not having the full support of his king. The moment he saw Qins potential invasion coming in, he negated it fast. The moment he saw what SHK was aiming for by Sanyou, he negated it fast. In the current Zhao arc he had strategies for multiple battlefields, doing the most out of any general in this war arc.
I'm sure you're already aware of the tons of panels about Riboku being the top guy that exist in the manga.
Simply because Mountain warriors together make the difference.
I mean if both Riboku or YTW are commanding 1,00,000 Zhou forces. Riboku is certain to come out victor. But this time Riboku forces are lacking Strong martial Generals(only Banaji) and inferior forces, while YTW has unstoppable Bajio and others i.e Danto, Kitari, Katari, Tajifu, Shunmen, and superior Mountain warriors that are but suicidal maniacs, that have proven to overcome impossible scenarios, if YTW commands em to, refer past posts.
Look what a mere sight of YTW on a horse, do to em.
I mean if both Riboku or YTW are commanding 1,00,000 Zhou forces. Riboku is certain to come out victor. But this time Riboku forces are lacking Strong martial Generals(only Banaji) and inferior forces, while YTW has unstoppable Bajio and others i.e Danto, Kitari, Katari, Tajifu, Shunmen, and superior Mountain warriors that are but suicidal maniacs, that have proven to overcome impossible scenarios, if YTW commands em to, refer past posts.
Look what a mere sight of YTW on a horse, do to em.
As for the army in terms of strength, 40k cavalry gives Riboku the advantage in having the superior army.
I really like Yo Tan Wa character and the mountain tribes are indeed really powerful. Bajio is a beast, and Tan Wa herself is the best likely the best warrior in this match up.
And don't forget she has the mighty Heki with her.
But I really think that Riboku will outsmart her.
Tan Wa is a great leader and has shown great tactic skills too. But Riboku is portrayed as the top dog so far with Shu Hei Kun and OuSen.
Riboku has likely dozens of good tactics under his belt, he can be instinctical (which is hard to counter when you are not) and tactical (where he is a beast). He can go himself too to strike the opponents leaders.
For exemple the crane formation of Riboku seemed quite efficient, OuSen managed to stalemate it but this is OuSen.
And in a 100K battle not everything is decieded by your own might : and Riboku has a strong tactical subordinate with the little white haired man (forgot his name). I don't want to disrespect Heki but if this guy faces Heki on a wing his men will beat him.
The only way for Tan Wa to wins this is really if her mountain tribes are enraged Hi Shin unit like and explode everything.
But all in all I think Riboku ill wins this but it will be difficult.
And don't forget she has the mighty Heki with her.
But I really think that Riboku will outsmart her.
Tan Wa is a great leader and has shown great tactic skills too. But Riboku is portrayed as the top dog so far with Shu Hei Kun and OuSen.
Riboku has likely dozens of good tactics under his belt, he can be instinctical (which is hard to counter when you are not) and tactical (where he is a beast). He can go himself too to strike the opponents leaders.
For exemple the crane formation of Riboku seemed quite efficient, OuSen managed to stalemate it but this is OuSen.
And in a 100K battle not everything is decieded by your own might : and Riboku has a strong tactical subordinate with the little white haired man (forgot his name). I don't want to disrespect Heki but if this guy faces Heki on a wing his men will beat him.
The only way for Tan Wa to wins this is really if her mountain tribes are enraged Hi Shin unit like and explode everything.
But all in all I think Riboku ill wins this but it will be difficult.
Hey what? Army organization + the ability to amp your army's fighting strength Via morale raising, are two of the most important aspects of war that there is. In fact, the only reason that Ou Hon and Shin weren't utterly crushed by the Zhao after Akou was taken out of the picture, is because Ou Hon and Shin amped their men up to unprecedented strength levels Via morale raising.
In fact, the Hi Shin Unit disregards all tactics and strategy after this moment:
And what happens again? Oh yeah,
The Gyoku Hou and Hi Shin Units reach unprecedented strength levels, so much so that the Zhao actually retreat:
Morale Raising is also the fundamental reason that Duke Hyou defeated Go Kei, as he was able to amp his personal cavalry to insane levels, and then basically plowed through the entire Wei Army to take Go Kei's head.
And keep in mind, Yo Tan Wa is literally the best in the business at raising her men's morale. In part because of her extreme charisma, and in part because the Mountain People are a bunch of god tier savages who amp themselves up lol.
As for Army organization, if you don't think that's important than...well...
I would encourage you to reread Sanyou, in which Renpa's entire battle strategy involved sending Rinkou in before the battle even started to eliminate Qin commanders and send the Qin's organizational structure into disarray, which effectively screwed the entire Mou Gou Army for most of the battle lol.
Again, Yo Tan Wa is excellent at this as well.
Not saying she's better at Riboku at organization, but she's very strong at it. And she is for sure better at raising her men's morale than Riboku is. And her Mountain Tribesmen are already worth about 2 of Riboku's Zhao soldiers anyway lol.
In fact, the Hi Shin Unit disregards all tactics and strategy after this moment:
And what happens again? Oh yeah,
The Gyoku Hou and Hi Shin Units reach unprecedented strength levels, so much so that the Zhao actually retreat:
Morale Raising is also the fundamental reason that Duke Hyou defeated Go Kei, as he was able to amp his personal cavalry to insane levels, and then basically plowed through the entire Wei Army to take Go Kei's head.
And keep in mind, Yo Tan Wa is literally the best in the business at raising her men's morale. In part because of her extreme charisma, and in part because the Mountain People are a bunch of god tier savages who amp themselves up lol.
As for Army organization, if you don't think that's important than...well...
I would encourage you to reread Sanyou, in which Renpa's entire battle strategy involved sending Rinkou in before the battle even started to eliminate Qin commanders and send the Qin's organizational structure into disarray, which effectively screwed the entire Mou Gou Army for most of the battle lol.
Again, Yo Tan Wa is excellent at this as well.
Not saying she's better at Riboku at organization, but she's very strong at it. And she is for sure better at raising her men's morale than Riboku is. And her Mountain Tribesmen are already worth about 2 of Riboku's Zhao soldiers anyway lol.
What? You mean Shunsuiji? The guy that had a home territory advantage, nearly twice as many soldiers with just his own Zhao Army, the assistance of an allied army that could match a weakened (through starvation) Yotanwa Army, a supplies advantage and a fortified city?
The same guy who despite having nearly every single advantage possible over Yotanwa and an overall force somewhere between 2x to 3x larger than his opponent, was completely outsmarted by her through her baiting him and Rozo to go after her and then stealing Ryuuyuu from right under their noses?
That guy? Seriously?
In terms of strategy, none of Yotanwa’s subordinates match him but in a dual, everyone that is Danto level and above could send his head flying. Dude has no decent melee feats.
I seriously doubt that Riboku has the superior army here.
Edit: MangaSee images do not permanently stay on posts within this forum, so I am replacing any that are in my posts.
The same guy who despite having nearly every single advantage possible over Yotanwa and an overall force somewhere between 2x to 3x larger than his opponent, was completely outsmarted by her through her baiting him and Rozo to go after her and then stealing Ryuuyuu from right under their noses?
That guy? Seriously?
In terms of strategy, none of Yotanwa’s subordinates match him but in a dual, everyone that is Danto level and above could send his head flying. Dude has no decent melee feats.
I seriously doubt that Riboku has the superior army here.
Very interesting matchup. Honestly, I am going with a high diff victory for Yotanwa for a few reasons.
On a side note, I am going to reuse some points from a previous post I made discussing Yotanwa. Lol.
I) Firstly, the average mountain tribe warrior is just straight up superior to every other average soldier from any Chinese army. An army of 50,000 tribal warriors was able to single handedly dominate a Zhao army that was nearly double it’s size at a number of 90,000 with contemptuous ease.
Even when faced with a numerically superior mixed army of Zhao and Quanrong forces such as this (remember that Quanrong Warriors are superior to Zhao soldiers).
The Mountain Tribes still decimated the opposing army despite being in an exhausted state.
Remember that they achieved that level of slaughter while starving, exhausted, grossly outnumbered and having suffered heavy casualties. Despite all this, they still had enough troops from this army to send as reinforcements to old Enpo to take the Quanrong city.
Honestly, if one Mountain Tribal Warrior is worth two Zhao soldiers then an army of 60,000 Mountain Warriors are worth an army of 120,000 Zhao Soldiers.
Considering how the Battle of Ryuuyuu played out (50,000 Mountain Warriors + 10,000 Qin Soldiers vs 90,000 Zhao Soldiers + an unknown but large number of Quanrong), this actually sounds about right.
II) Yotanwa and her subordinates are a more powerful force than that of Riboku and his subordinates. Bajio, Katari, Kitari and Danto in particular can completely plough through nearly every Zhao General bar Bananji.
Futei and Kaine are practically non factors and at best would only defeat Shunmen or Tajifu, the two Earls at their absolute best could each equal Danto. Only Bananji alone could defeat or equal Katari, Kitari and Bajio.
Absolutely no one on Zhao’s side is capable of defeating Yotanwa herself however. She defeated Goba, an individual that could match regular Bajio blow for blow,
with just three swipes of her sword.
She is a speed demon among speed demons.
Meanwhile, Zhao’s strongest dualist in Bananji, struggled to deal with Ouhon’s speed.
III) Riboku’s Army is so cavalry heavy, it is actually a hindrance in this matchup.
If 40,000 (2/5) of his 100,000 army is cavalry then that means that only 60,000 (3/5) of his army comprises of infantry.
Even if we were to theoretically highball Yotanwa’s cavalry at 15,000 (1/4) then that would leave 45,000 Mountain Infantry vs 60,000 Zhao Infantry.
Remember that an army of just 50,000 Mountain Warriors can one sidedly crush a Zhao force of 90,000.
Riboku simply does not have enough infantry to hold the line against a full frontal Mountain Infantry assault.
This is not even mentioning Heki Army of 40,000 that can just split their force and guard the flanks while the Mountain Warriors tear through the Zhao Infantry like wet paper.
IV) If either side were to fight in the wooded areas then the Mountain Warriors would have the advantage here as they are better at laying ambushes and stealth than the Riboku Army.
V) The Mera Tribe Cavalry led by Katari and Kitari will be superior to any of the Zhao cavalry. They will then be backed up by Heki’s cavalry to give them some extra numbers.
What I imagine would happen in this battle is that Heki’s Army + Yotanwa’s Cavalry will guard the flanks while Yotanwa’s Infantry will smash straight through the Zhao Infantry. Yotanwa will slay Bananji in a high diff dual and every other Zhao officer will be forced to retreat or get killed by Yotanwa’s far superior subordinates.
Even if Riboku retreats into the woods behind him, that just favours the Mountain Warriors as it is a better terrain for them and it will also limit the mobility of Riboku’s own cavalry.
Yes, Riboku is a superior strategist to Yotanwa but not by a huge amount. Yotanwa was still able to completely outmaneuver Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategy. I would even go so far as to say that some of Riboku’s best tactics would fail specifically against the Yotanwa Army due to the unorthodox ways of the Mountain Warriors.
Not only that but the entire Yotanwa Army operate differently to how the Zhao function. Zhao (and any Chinese) armies fight as units that are part of a greater whole. Mountain Warriors fight as a collection of warriors working together, usually in amongst their own tribe.
No amount of tactics or strategy can overcome the fact that every single one of your opponents soldiers are at minimum, worth two of your own.
@Admiral Lee Hung
On a side note, I am going to reuse some points from a previous post I made discussing Yotanwa. Lol.
I) Firstly, the average mountain tribe warrior is just straight up superior to every other average soldier from any Chinese army. An army of 50,000 tribal warriors was able to single handedly dominate a Zhao army that was nearly double it’s size at a number of 90,000 with contemptuous ease.
Even when faced with a numerically superior mixed army of Zhao and Quanrong forces such as this (remember that Quanrong Warriors are superior to Zhao soldiers).
The Mountain Tribes still decimated the opposing army despite being in an exhausted state.
Honestly, if one Mountain Tribal Warrior is worth two Zhao soldiers then an army of 60,000 Mountain Warriors are worth an army of 120,000 Zhao Soldiers.
Considering how the Battle of Ryuuyuu played out (50,000 Mountain Warriors + 10,000 Qin Soldiers vs 90,000 Zhao Soldiers + an unknown but large number of Quanrong), this actually sounds about right.
II) Yotanwa and her subordinates are a more powerful force than that of Riboku and his subordinates. Bajio, Katari, Kitari and Danto in particular can completely plough through nearly every Zhao General bar Bananji.
Futei and Kaine are practically non factors and at best would only defeat Shunmen or Tajifu, the two Earls at their absolute best could each equal Danto. Only Bananji alone could defeat or equal Katari, Kitari and Bajio.
Absolutely no one on Zhao’s side is capable of defeating Yotanwa herself however. She defeated Goba, an individual that could match regular Bajio blow for blow,
Meanwhile, Zhao’s strongest dualist in Bananji, struggled to deal with Ouhon’s speed.
III) Riboku’s Army is so cavalry heavy, it is actually a hindrance in this matchup.
If 40,000 (2/5) of his 100,000 army is cavalry then that means that only 60,000 (3/5) of his army comprises of infantry.
Even if we were to theoretically highball Yotanwa’s cavalry at 15,000 (1/4) then that would leave 45,000 Mountain Infantry vs 60,000 Zhao Infantry.
Remember that an army of just 50,000 Mountain Warriors can one sidedly crush a Zhao force of 90,000.
Riboku simply does not have enough infantry to hold the line against a full frontal Mountain Infantry assault.
This is not even mentioning Heki Army of 40,000 that can just split their force and guard the flanks while the Mountain Warriors tear through the Zhao Infantry like wet paper.
IV) If either side were to fight in the wooded areas then the Mountain Warriors would have the advantage here as they are better at laying ambushes and stealth than the Riboku Army.
V) The Mera Tribe Cavalry led by Katari and Kitari will be superior to any of the Zhao cavalry. They will then be backed up by Heki’s cavalry to give them some extra numbers.
What I imagine would happen in this battle is that Heki’s Army + Yotanwa’s Cavalry will guard the flanks while Yotanwa’s Infantry will smash straight through the Zhao Infantry. Yotanwa will slay Bananji in a high diff dual and every other Zhao officer will be forced to retreat or get killed by Yotanwa’s far superior subordinates.
Even if Riboku retreats into the woods behind him, that just favours the Mountain Warriors as it is a better terrain for them and it will also limit the mobility of Riboku’s own cavalry.
Yes, Riboku is a superior strategist to Yotanwa but not by a huge amount. Yotanwa was still able to completely outmaneuver Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategy. I would even go so far as to say that some of Riboku’s best tactics would fail specifically against the Yotanwa Army due to the unorthodox ways of the Mountain Warriors.
Not only that but the entire Yotanwa Army operate differently to how the Zhao function. Zhao (and any Chinese) armies fight as units that are part of a greater whole. Mountain Warriors fight as a collection of warriors working together, usually in amongst their own tribe.
No amount of tactics or strategy can overcome the fact that every single one of your opponents soldiers are at minimum, worth two of your own.
@Admiral Lee Hung
To be fair, Yotanwa is comparing them not to her own faction that consists of numerous tribes but rather the individual tribes she had fought or was fighting at the time such as the Mera and the Feego, who individually would not match a Xiongnu force but united under Yotanwa, they would.
I would actually say that the Ryuudou is exactly the kind of formation that the Mountain Warriors would overcome through sheer strength.
The Ryuudou has only ever worked for a defending army that is significantly larger than the force attacking it.
100,000 Wei Ryuudou vs 10,000 or less Qin assault. The Wei force is 10x larger.
40,000 Zhao Ryuudou vs 5000 Qin assault. The Zhao force is 8x larger.
The Ryuudou has also only ever been used to redirect the attack of a single wedge formation charge.
In my opinion, the Ryuudou cannot deal with either multiple large scale attacks simultaneously (e.g. if any combination of Yotanwa, Katari, Kitari, Danto, Bajio and even Shunmen attack in sync) or with an assault force equal or nearly equal to the defending army.
It also only works when the attacker is specifically aiming for the defender’s headquarters and also if the attackers fight as a unit.
What would likely happen here is that instead of a Mountain Warrior unit being split up by a clump of Zhao soldiers, a few mountain mad lads would jump straight at that clump, open the formation up and allow everyone else to slaughter some Zhao and then move on the enemy headquarters anyway.
Mountain Warriors produce individuals that lay on the ground after being hit by crossbow bolts so that they can disrupt and open up an enemy formation and charge at retreating Zhao soldiers going through a gate just to have first blood.
Mountain Warriors are legit mad lads on the individual level. Trying to separate them on a unit level is not going to work.
You have either never read Kingdom at all or have never gotten past Chapter 20 of Kingdom, have you?
The strategic mastermind behind the actions of the Zhao forces in the Battle of Ryuuyuuwas not anyone from the “simple minded Dog People” but Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategic prowess, who Yotanwa outright outsmarted by using herself as bait, luring the Quanrong King Rozo and his main force out and taking the relatively unguarded city right from everyone’s noses.
The mountain people overcame the odds specifically because Yotanwa is a great strategist who can come up with a workable plan quickly, under great pressure.
To be fair, he outmaneuvered Ouki due to Ouki (or anyone outside of Zhao for that matter) not even being aware of his existence.
Despite this, Ouki still correctly predicted the existence of Riboku’s Army and that his army would arrive with the intent of trapping him. He only miscalculated the speed of Riboku’s Army. Riboku basically won out on a technicality.
Besides, if we count that as Riboku outsmarting Ouki then Yotanwa has canonically already outsmarted Riboku during the Battle of Sai.
I believe Yotanwa is being heavily underrated in this thread.
Riboku, in my rankings, would naturally be among the absolute top of the highest possible tier in my ranking list, the “Greatest Tactician” tier. Yotanwa would at minimum be in the upper end of the tier below Riboku, the “Master Tactician” tier. At best, she would be at the lower end of the same tier as Riboku.
Now one might think this naturally gives Riboku the strategic/tactical advantage over Yotanwa. However, there is a problem for Riboku here.
Riboku’s tactics and strategies are designed to deal with traditional Chinese armies or the cavalry oriented Xiongnu. They are not designed to deal with Yotanwa and her completely unorthodox army.
Got twice as many troops as her? Too bad, she still matches your army.
Got more archers than her? Too bad, an entire tribe’s worth of her archers can fire off five arrows at once in their opening volley.
Got a nicely defended headquarters up a vertical cliff?
Sucks to be you.
The other thing that is overlooked is Yotanwa’s organisational abilities. She took multiple armies from across an entire realm and united and organised them all into a single effective fighting force all well within her lifetime.
Yotanwa is the undisputed King of the Mountains for a reason.
I would actually say that the Ryuudou is exactly the kind of formation that the Mountain Warriors would overcome through sheer strength.
The Ryuudou has only ever worked for a defending army that is significantly larger than the force attacking it.
100,000 Wei Ryuudou vs 10,000 or less Qin assault. The Wei force is 10x larger.
40,000 Zhao Ryuudou vs 5000 Qin assault. The Zhao force is 8x larger.
The Ryuudou has also only ever been used to redirect the attack of a single wedge formation charge.
In my opinion, the Ryuudou cannot deal with either multiple large scale attacks simultaneously (e.g. if any combination of Yotanwa, Katari, Kitari, Danto, Bajio and even Shunmen attack in sync) or with an assault force equal or nearly equal to the defending army.
It also only works when the attacker is specifically aiming for the defender’s headquarters and also if the attackers fight as a unit.
Mountain Warriors produce individuals that lay on the ground after being hit by crossbow bolts so that they can disrupt and open up an enemy formation and charge at retreating Zhao soldiers going through a gate just to have first blood.
Mountain Warriors are legit mad lads on the individual level. Trying to separate them on a unit level is not going to work.
You have either never read Kingdom at all or have never gotten past Chapter 20 of Kingdom, have you?
The strategic mastermind behind the actions of the Zhao forces in the Battle of Ryuuyuuwas not anyone from the “simple minded Dog People” but Shunsuiji, Riboku’s left hand man and his greatest subordinate in terms of strategic prowess, who Yotanwa outright outsmarted by using herself as bait, luring the Quanrong King Rozo and his main force out and taking the relatively unguarded city right from everyone’s noses.
The mountain people overcame the odds specifically because Yotanwa is a great strategist who can come up with a workable plan quickly, under great pressure.
To be fair, he outmaneuvered Ouki due to Ouki (or anyone outside of Zhao for that matter) not even being aware of his existence.
Despite this, Ouki still correctly predicted the existence of Riboku’s Army and that his army would arrive with the intent of trapping him. He only miscalculated the speed of Riboku’s Army. Riboku basically won out on a technicality.
Besides, if we count that as Riboku outsmarting Ouki then Yotanwa has canonically already outsmarted Riboku during the Battle of Sai.
I believe Yotanwa is being heavily underrated in this thread.
Riboku, in my rankings, would naturally be among the absolute top of the highest possible tier in my ranking list, the “Greatest Tactician” tier. Yotanwa would at minimum be in the upper end of the tier below Riboku, the “Master Tactician” tier. At best, she would be at the lower end of the same tier as Riboku.
Now one might think this naturally gives Riboku the strategic/tactical advantage over Yotanwa. However, there is a problem for Riboku here.
Riboku’s tactics and strategies are designed to deal with traditional Chinese armies or the cavalry oriented Xiongnu. They are not designed to deal with Yotanwa and her completely unorthodox army.
Got twice as many troops as her? Too bad, she still matches your army.
Got more archers than her? Too bad, an entire tribe’s worth of her archers can fire off five arrows at once in their opening volley.
Got a nicely defended headquarters up a vertical cliff?
Sucks to be you.
The other thing that is overlooked is Yotanwa’s organisational abilities. She took multiple armies from across an entire realm and united and organised them all into a single effective fighting force all well within her lifetime.
Yotanwa is the undisputed King of the Mountains for a reason.
I would not be surprised if she does win. Yotanwa herself is a great tactician and one of the strongest dualists in the manga. Her numerous subordinates are all powerful dualists and her entire army is simply overpowered.
All these form a winning combo.
The armies I expect to do best are Yotanwa and her army of mad lads, Great Heaven Renpa and his Four Heavenly Chads, Ousen and his ever growing army of nakama and last but certainly not least, Great Heaven Rinshoujou and his manimals.
While we are still on Yotanwa’s Army then there is one other advantage that the Yotanwa Army possesses over most other armies that has not yet been mentioned by anyone thus far in this tournament.
An overwhelming dread factor.
Mountain Warriors, through their personal strength and sheer brutality, inspire fear and terror into the enemy to the point that they can demoralise opposing armies.
Such as when 300 Mountain Warriors drove off and routed a supposedly several thousand Jin Army
As well as the Battle of Retsubi where Yotanwa crushed the morale of the Zhao defenders.
Demoralising the enemy is the quickest way to defeat them for if one’s opponent has no will to fight then they simply won’t.
All these form a winning combo.
The armies I expect to do best are Yotanwa and her army of mad lads, Great Heaven Renpa and his Four Heavenly Chads, Ousen and his ever growing army of nakama and last but certainly not least, Great Heaven Rinshoujou and his manimals.
While we are still on Yotanwa’s Army then there is one other advantage that the Yotanwa Army possesses over most other armies that has not yet been mentioned by anyone thus far in this tournament.
An overwhelming dread factor.
Mountain Warriors, through their personal strength and sheer brutality, inspire fear and terror into the enemy to the point that they can demoralise opposing armies.
Such as when 300 Mountain Warriors drove off and routed a supposedly several thousand Jin Army
As well as the Battle of Retsubi where Yotanwa crushed the morale of the Zhao defenders.
Demoralising the enemy is the quickest way to defeat them for if one’s opponent has no will to fight then they simply won’t.
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@Xione i get what you are sayin, he has always been presented as the biggest threat in the path of Qin Unification of China.
But the reality is, Riboku is guy whose abilities lies in planning ahead of time and also as a Political guy. His Best feats so far has been pulling out an Coalition Army on the Qin and second, outsmarting Ouki by information Blackout, one is Political feat acheived due to second feat i.e by planning out careful plans ahead of time.
In this current arc as well, that part has been true and Riboku obstacle Hype is strong.
Since Qin would have never managed to conquer China by following the usual war tactics of taking Zhou head on.
Riboku had that destroyed by planning fortification of Zhou borders which would have pushed Qin dreams of conquering Zhou roughly by 10 to 15 years, that would have weakened Qin enough to be taken benefit by Chu and smashing Qin out of existence.
And hence Shou Hei kun had to go by unusual tactics, a do-die war to conquer Gyou in one all out swoop.
But has Riboku really lived upto that Big Hype in actual battles? I remember loses more.
I mean look at the current war itself with Ousen, he had to face defeat even tho he had this many notable Generals:-
Houken
Chou Ga Ryuu
Gyou un
Kin mou
Gaku Hei
Ki sui
Ba tei
Earl Kou
Earl Rai
Also Fu tei n Kaine
Plus number advantage of 32k/home turf/food advantage.
I dont mean to portray him unimpressive by highlighting his loses but that, he isn't invincible like his Hype, and has lost battles.
But the reality is, Riboku is guy whose abilities lies in planning ahead of time and also as a Political guy. His Best feats so far has been pulling out an Coalition Army on the Qin and second, outsmarting Ouki by information Blackout, one is Political feat acheived due to second feat i.e by planning out careful plans ahead of time.
In this current arc as well, that part has been true and Riboku obstacle Hype is strong.
Since Qin would have never managed to conquer China by following the usual war tactics of taking Zhou head on.
Riboku had that destroyed by planning fortification of Zhou borders which would have pushed Qin dreams of conquering Zhou roughly by 10 to 15 years, that would have weakened Qin enough to be taken benefit by Chu and smashing Qin out of existence.
And hence Shou Hei kun had to go by unusual tactics, a do-die war to conquer Gyou in one all out swoop.
But has Riboku really lived upto that Big Hype in actual battles? I remember loses more.
I mean look at the current war itself with Ousen, he had to face defeat even tho he had this many notable Generals:-
Houken
Chou Ga Ryuu
Gyou un
Kin mou
Gaku Hei
Ki sui
Ba tei
Earl Kou
Earl Rai
Also Fu tei n Kaine
Plus number advantage of 32k/home turf/food advantage.
I dont mean to portray him unimpressive by highlighting his loses but that, he isn't invincible like his Hype, and has lost battles.
@Yo Tan Wa is exactly correct, Riboku’s strength as a general relies on manipulating information and dictating the scenario of the battle before it even begins. In terms of actual open warfare, there are generals in this tournament who are above him.
The war itself with Ousen, let's look at it:
Ousen has: Yotanwa, Kanki (3 individuals who are on the same general level as Riboku)
Riboku has: Nobody of that level other than himself
So Riboku is already at a disadvantage in terms of overall leadership goes for his army. Thus he's bearing more responsibilities for making general plans for each of the battlefields (which we see in little flashbacks in the YTW battle & The right wing battle).
Shukai plains, Ousen's underlings:
- Mouten: Long overdue for a general promotion is easily on par with Kisui, and can be argued for being better than Kisui.
- Ouhon: Just got a huge boost in the arc, something the Zhao generals didn't benefit from.
- Shin: The man is eventually going to become the #1 general in China, and just got a giant boost throughout the arc
- Kyoukai : Same as above
- Karyo Ten: Even though she didn't receive any huge boost strategies wise, she's easily comparable to the elite generals in terms of strategy.
- Makou: A top general who matches up with the likes of Kisui and so
- Akou : A top general who matches up with the likes of Bananji
- Denrimi & the other dude : match up perfectly well the Earls.
Not much point in mentioning Houken when the dude was pretty irrelevant in majority of the battle and only became of some decent relevance at the end, delaying Riboku's retreat that he as going to pull off anyway. This is also crossed off by the fact that a fucked up Shin killed this dude after killing Chougoryuu not long ago.
No matter how you put it, Ousen had the better overall military power under him as afar as individuals go. Dude has a guy who slew Chougaryuu & Houken in the same war, while starving.
Riboku hasn't lived up to the big hype battles? Idk how you would say that. This was the first time he's ever been involved in a fact to face match up against a general, Ousen, who is gonna be the #1 or 2 general in the manga after Riboku's fall, so Riboku's nigh-equal in tactics anddd they were pretty much in a stalemate.
Of course, he's lost battles, he's taken the biggest L in the manga with the Coalition war to an extent the man was essentially exiled. But even despite that he's held as the biggest threat to Qin's Unification. Simply because he plans ahead of time and politics ? Nooope, because the dude is essentially a 1 man-team. He took the L at Sai not because he couldn't take down YTW and Sai, but because he was sure that he wouldn't be able to take down the capital after taking down YTW & Sai. I don't know of any L he's taken in direct battle.
-> He's countered SHK, multiple times in the series
-> He's doing the job of politics & military for the state of Zhao, with no other notable individual supporting him, essentially doing the King's job for him.
-> There's no other GG level in the state of Zhao, except for maybe Shibashou. Qin on the other hand is loaded. So he's essentially countering the GGs of other states, while having the most incompetent king who can't utilize Riboku to his max.
Ousen dies - Qin won't collapse
SHK dies - Qin won't collapse
Moubu die - Qin won't collapse
Karin dies - Chu won't collapse
so on and so forth
Riboku dies, Zhao is R.I.P.
Which is pretty much happens in actual history as well.
^^ The above is what truly showcases Riboku's greatness, since Hara is being pretty accurate in the overall way the war is happening, with this one being a hard fought victory for Qin as it was in history. I'm assuming he'll more than likely stick to the actual history mentioned above, so if you're not convinced of him being the top dog in the manga right now, then just gotta wait a bit more and see why the man is regarded so high by Ei sei/Renpa/SHK/every other general in the manga.
Planning ahead is part of being a strategist. Ousen/Ouki/etc all plan ahead, hence Ouki even had his own informants. Difference is none of those mfs gotta carry a whole state on their back, Riboku does. You lift the political responsibility from Riboku's shoulder and have him just focus on warfare.. man it's gg.
Now I'm not discounting Yotanwa's greatness, I probably have her higher than most people who voted for Yotanwa in overall generals (In my top 4 at the moment). Just Riboku's just that great. Heck we haven't even seen this side of Riboku yet:
Ousen has: Yotanwa, Kanki (3 individuals who are on the same general level as Riboku)
Riboku has: Nobody of that level other than himself
So Riboku is already at a disadvantage in terms of overall leadership goes for his army. Thus he's bearing more responsibilities for making general plans for each of the battlefields (which we see in little flashbacks in the YTW battle & The right wing battle).
Shukai plains, Ousen's underlings:
- Mouten: Long overdue for a general promotion is easily on par with Kisui, and can be argued for being better than Kisui.
- Ouhon: Just got a huge boost in the arc, something the Zhao generals didn't benefit from.
- Shin: The man is eventually going to become the #1 general in China, and just got a giant boost throughout the arc
- Kyoukai : Same as above
- Karyo Ten: Even though she didn't receive any huge boost strategies wise, she's easily comparable to the elite generals in terms of strategy.
- Makou: A top general who matches up with the likes of Kisui and so
- Akou : A top general who matches up with the likes of Bananji
- Denrimi & the other dude : match up perfectly well the Earls.
Not much point in mentioning Houken when the dude was pretty irrelevant in majority of the battle and only became of some decent relevance at the end, delaying Riboku's retreat that he as going to pull off anyway. This is also crossed off by the fact that a fucked up Shin killed this dude after killing Chougoryuu not long ago.
No matter how you put it, Ousen had the better overall military power under him as afar as individuals go. Dude has a guy who slew Chougaryuu & Houken in the same war, while starving.
Riboku hasn't lived up to the big hype battles? Idk how you would say that. This was the first time he's ever been involved in a fact to face match up against a general, Ousen, who is gonna be the #1 or 2 general in the manga after Riboku's fall, so Riboku's nigh-equal in tactics anddd they were pretty much in a stalemate.
Of course, he's lost battles, he's taken the biggest L in the manga with the Coalition war to an extent the man was essentially exiled. But even despite that he's held as the biggest threat to Qin's Unification. Simply because he plans ahead of time and politics ? Nooope, because the dude is essentially a 1 man-team. He took the L at Sai not because he couldn't take down YTW and Sai, but because he was sure that he wouldn't be able to take down the capital after taking down YTW & Sai. I don't know of any L he's taken in direct battle.
-> He's countered SHK, multiple times in the series
-> He's doing the job of politics & military for the state of Zhao, with no other notable individual supporting him, essentially doing the King's job for him.
-> There's no other GG level in the state of Zhao, except for maybe Shibashou. Qin on the other hand is loaded. So he's essentially countering the GGs of other states, while having the most incompetent king who can't utilize Riboku to his max.
Ousen dies - Qin won't collapse
SHK dies - Qin won't collapse
Moubu die - Qin won't collapse
Karin dies - Chu won't collapse
so on and so forth
Riboku dies, Zhao is R.I.P.
Riboku hands Kanki a L. Qin does pincer (with YTW & Ousen being part of it) from both sides on the capital, Riboku prepares defensive formations, Qin can't get past those defensive formations.. this was after Zhao was hit with an earthquake & a famine.. Qin then manipulates the court of Zhao to taking control of the army from Riboku to somebody else, Riboku refuses, Riboku gets killed. Once Qin finds out, they take over Zhao.. because nobody other than Riboku was capable of stopping them.
Planning ahead is part of being a strategist. Ousen/Ouki/etc all plan ahead, hence Ouki even had his own informants. Difference is none of those mfs gotta carry a whole state on their back, Riboku does. You lift the political responsibility from Riboku's shoulder and have him just focus on warfare.. man it's gg.
Now I'm not discounting Yotanwa's greatness, I probably have her higher than most people who voted for Yotanwa in overall generals (In my top 4 at the moment). Just Riboku's just that great. Heck we haven't even seen this side of Riboku yet:
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The war itself with Ousen, let's look at it:
Ousen has: Yotanwa, Kanki (3 individuals who are on the same general level as Riboku)
Riboku has: Nobody of that level other than himself
So Riboku is already at a disadvantage in terms of overall leadership goes for his army. Thus he's bearing more responsibilities for making general plans for each of the battlefields (which we see in little flashbacks in the YTW battle & The right wing battle).
Shukai plains, Ousen's underlings:
- Mouten: Long overdue for a general promotion is easily on par with Kisui, and can be argued for being better than Kisui.
- Ouhon: Just got a huge boost in the arc, something the Zhao generals didn't benefit from.
- Shin: The man is eventually going to become the #1 general in China, and just got a giant boost throughout the arc
- Kyoukai : Same as above
- Karyo Ten: Even though she didn't receive any huge boost strategies wise, she's easily comparable to the elite generals in terms of strategy.
- Makou: A top general who matches up with the likes of Kisui and so
- Akou : A top general who matches up with the likes of Bananji
- Denrimi & the other dude : match up perfectly well the Earls.
Not much point in mentioning Houken when the dude was pretty irrelevant in majority of the battle and only became of some decent relevance at the end, delaying Riboku's retreat that he as going to pull off anyway. This is also crossed off by the fact that a fucked up Shin killed this dude after killing Chougoryuu not long ago.
No matter how you put it, Ousen had the better overall military power under him as afar as individuals go. Dude has a guy who slew Chougaryuu & Houken in the same war, while starving.
Riboku hasn't lived up to the big hype battles? Idk how you would say that. This was the first time he's ever been involved in a fact to face match up against a general, Ousen, who is gonna be the #1 or 2 general in the manga after Riboku's fall, so Riboku's nigh-equal in tactics anddd they were pretty much in a stalemate.
Of course, he's lost battles, he's taken the biggest L in the manga with the Coalition war to an extent the man was essentially exiled. But even despite that he's held as the biggest threat to Qin's Unification. Simply because he plans ahead of time and politics ? Nooope, because the dude is essentially a 1 man-team. He took the L at Sai not because he couldn't take down YTW and Sai, but because he was sure that he wouldn't be able to take down the capital after taking down YTW & Sai. I don't know of any L he's taken in direct battle.
-> He's countered SHK, multiple times in the series
-> He's doing the job of politics & military for the state of Zhao, with no other notable individual supporting him, essentially doing the King's job for him.
-> There's no other GG level in the state of Zhao, except for maybe Shibashou. Qin on the other hand is loaded. So he's essentially countering the GGs of other states, while having the most incompetent king who can't utilize Riboku to his max.
Ousen dies - Qin won't collapse
SHK dies - Qin won't collapse
Moubu die - Qin won't collapse
Karin dies - Chu won't collapse
so on and so forth
Riboku dies, Zhao is R.I.P.
Which is pretty much happens in actual history as well.
^^ The above is what truly showcases Riboku's greatness, since Hara is being pretty accurate in the overall way the war is happening, with this one being a hard fought victory for Qin as it was in history. I'm assuming he'll more than likely stick to the actual history mentioned above, so if you're not convinced of him being the top dog in the manga right now, then just gotta wait a bit more and see why the man is regarded so high by Ei sei/Renpa/SHK/every other general in the manga.
Planning ahead is part of being a strategist. Ousen/Ouki/etc all plan ahead, hence Ouki even had his own informants. Difference is none of those mfs gotta carry a whole state on their back, Riboku does. You lift the political responsibility from Riboku's shoulder and have him just focus on warfare.. man it's gg.
Now I'm not discounting Yotanwa's greatness, I probably have her higher than most people who voted for Yotanwa in overall generals (In my top 4 at the moment). Just Riboku's just that great. Heck we haven't even seen this side of Riboku yet:
Ousen has: Yotanwa, Kanki (3 individuals who are on the same general level as Riboku)
Riboku has: Nobody of that level other than himself
So Riboku is already at a disadvantage in terms of overall leadership goes for his army. Thus he's bearing more responsibilities for making general plans for each of the battlefields (which we see in little flashbacks in the YTW battle & The right wing battle).
Shukai plains, Ousen's underlings:
- Mouten: Long overdue for a general promotion is easily on par with Kisui, and can be argued for being better than Kisui.
- Ouhon: Just got a huge boost in the arc, something the Zhao generals didn't benefit from.
- Shin: The man is eventually going to become the #1 general in China, and just got a giant boost throughout the arc
- Kyoukai : Same as above
- Karyo Ten: Even though she didn't receive any huge boost strategies wise, she's easily comparable to the elite generals in terms of strategy.
- Makou: A top general who matches up with the likes of Kisui and so
- Akou : A top general who matches up with the likes of Bananji
- Denrimi & the other dude : match up perfectly well the Earls.
Not much point in mentioning Houken when the dude was pretty irrelevant in majority of the battle and only became of some decent relevance at the end, delaying Riboku's retreat that he as going to pull off anyway. This is also crossed off by the fact that a fucked up Shin killed this dude after killing Chougoryuu not long ago.
No matter how you put it, Ousen had the better overall military power under him as afar as individuals go. Dude has a guy who slew Chougaryuu & Houken in the same war, while starving.
Riboku hasn't lived up to the big hype battles? Idk how you would say that. This was the first time he's ever been involved in a fact to face match up against a general, Ousen, who is gonna be the #1 or 2 general in the manga after Riboku's fall, so Riboku's nigh-equal in tactics anddd they were pretty much in a stalemate.
Of course, he's lost battles, he's taken the biggest L in the manga with the Coalition war to an extent the man was essentially exiled. But even despite that he's held as the biggest threat to Qin's Unification. Simply because he plans ahead of time and politics ? Nooope, because the dude is essentially a 1 man-team. He took the L at Sai not because he couldn't take down YTW and Sai, but because he was sure that he wouldn't be able to take down the capital after taking down YTW & Sai. I don't know of any L he's taken in direct battle.
-> He's countered SHK, multiple times in the series
-> He's doing the job of politics & military for the state of Zhao, with no other notable individual supporting him, essentially doing the King's job for him.
-> There's no other GG level in the state of Zhao, except for maybe Shibashou. Qin on the other hand is loaded. So he's essentially countering the GGs of other states, while having the most incompetent king who can't utilize Riboku to his max.
Ousen dies - Qin won't collapse
SHK dies - Qin won't collapse
Moubu die - Qin won't collapse
Karin dies - Chu won't collapse
so on and so forth
Riboku dies, Zhao is R.I.P.
Riboku hands Kanki a L. Qin does pincer (with YTW & Ousen being part of it) from both sides on the capital, Riboku prepares defensive formations, Qin can't get past those defensive formations.. this after Zhao was hit with an earthquake & a famine.. Qin then manipulates the court of Zhao to taking control of the army from Riboku to somebody else, Riboku refuses, Riboku gets killed. Once Qin finds out, they take over Zhao.. because nobody other than Riboku was capable of stopping them.
Planning ahead is part of being a strategist. Ousen/Ouki/etc all plan ahead, hence Ouki even had his own informants. Difference is none of those mfs gotta carry a whole state on their back, Riboku does. You lift the political responsibility from Riboku's shoulder and have him just focus on warfare.. man it's gg.
Now I'm not discounting Yotanwa's greatness, I probably have her higher than most people who voted for Yotanwa in overall generals (In my top 4 at the moment). Just Riboku's just that great. Heck we haven't even seen this side of Riboku yet:
Hey what? Army organization + the ability to amp your army's fighting strength Via morale raising, are two of the most important aspects of war that there is. In fact, the only reason that Ou Hon and Shin weren't utterly crushed by the Zhao after Akou was taken out of the picture, is because Ou Hon and Shin amped their men up to unprecedented strength levels Via morale raising.
In fact, the Hi Shin Unit disregards all tactics and strategy after this moment:
And what happens again? Oh yeah,
The Gyoku Hou and Hi Shin Units reach unprecedented strength levels, so much so that the Zhao actually retreat:
Morale Raising is also the fundamental reason that Duke Hyou defeated Go Kei, as he was able to amp his personal cavalry to insane levels, and then basically plowed through the entire Wei Army to take Go Kei's head.
And keep in mind, Yo Tan Wa is literally the best in the business at raising her men's morale. In part because of her extreme charisma, and in part because the Mountain People are a bunch of god tier savages who amp themselves up lol.
As for Army organization, if you don't think that's important than...well...
I would encourage you to reread Sanyou, in which Renpa's entire battle strategy involved sending Rinkou in before the battle even started to eliminate Qin commanders and send the Qin's organizational structure into disarray, which effectively screwed the entire Mou Gou Army for most of the battle lol.
Again, Yo Tan Wa is excellent at this as well.
Not saying she's better at Riboku at organization, but she's very strong at it. And she is for sure better at raising her men's morale than Riboku is. And her Mountain Tribesmen are already worth about 2 of Riboku's Zhao soldiers anyway lol.
In fact, the Hi Shin Unit disregards all tactics and strategy after this moment:
And what happens again? Oh yeah,
The Gyoku Hou and Hi Shin Units reach unprecedented strength levels, so much so that the Zhao actually retreat:
Morale Raising is also the fundamental reason that Duke Hyou defeated Go Kei, as he was able to amp his personal cavalry to insane levels, and then basically plowed through the entire Wei Army to take Go Kei's head.
And keep in mind, Yo Tan Wa is literally the best in the business at raising her men's morale. In part because of her extreme charisma, and in part because the Mountain People are a bunch of god tier savages who amp themselves up lol.
As for Army organization, if you don't think that's important than...well...
I would encourage you to reread Sanyou, in which Renpa's entire battle strategy involved sending Rinkou in before the battle even started to eliminate Qin commanders and send the Qin's organizational structure into disarray, which effectively screwed the entire Mou Gou Army for most of the battle lol.
Again, Yo Tan Wa is excellent at this as well.
Not saying she's better at Riboku at organization, but she's very strong at it. And she is for sure better at raising her men's morale than Riboku is. And her Mountain Tribesmen are already worth about 2 of Riboku's Zhao soldiers anyway lol.
The war itself with Ousen, let's look at it:
Ousen has: Yotanwa, Kanki (3 individuals who are on the same general level as Riboku)
Riboku has: Nobody of that level other than himself
So Riboku is already at a disadvantage in terms of overall leadership goes for his army. Thus he's bearing more responsibilities for making general plans for each of the battlefields (which we see in little flashbacks in the YTW battle & The right wing battle).
Shukai plains, Ousen's underlings:
- Mouten: Long overdue for a general promotion is easily on par with Kisui, and can be argued for being better than Kisui.
- Ouhon: Just got a huge boost in the arc, something the Zhao generals didn't benefit from.
- Shin: The man is eventually going to become the #1 general in China, and just got a giant boost throughout the arc
- Kyoukai : Same as above
- Karyo Ten: Even though she didn't receive any huge boost strategies wise, she's easily comparable to the elite generals in terms of strategy.
- Makou: A top general who matches up with the likes of Kisui and so
- Akou : A top general who matches up with the likes of Bananji
- Denrimi & the other dude : match up perfectly well the Earls.
Not much point in mentioning Houken when the dude was pretty irrelevant in majority of the battle and only became of some decent relevance at the end, delaying Riboku's retreat that he as going to pull off anyway. This is also crossed off by the fact that a fucked up Shin killed this dude after killing Chougoryuu not long ago.
No matter how you put it, Ousen had the better overall military power under him as afar as individuals go. Dude has a guy who slew Chougaryuu & Houken in the same war, while starving.
Riboku hasn't lived up to the big hype battles? Idk how you would say that. This was the first time he's ever been involved in a fact to face match up against a general, Ousen, who is gonna be the #1 or 2 general in the manga after Riboku's fall, so Riboku's nigh-equal in tactics anddd they were pretty much in a stalemate.
Of course, he's lost battles, he's taken the biggest L in the manga with the Coalition war to an extent the man was essentially exiled. But even despite that he's held as the biggest threat to Qin's Unification. Simply because he plans ahead of time and politics ? Nooope, because the dude is essentially a 1 man-team. He took the L at Sai not because he couldn't take down YTW and Sai, but because he was sure that he wouldn't be able to take down the capital after taking down YTW & Sai. I don't know of any L he's taken in direct battle.
-> He's countered SHK, multiple times in the series
-> He's doing the job of politics & military for the state of Zhao, with no other notable individual supporting him, essentially doing the King's job for him.
-> There's no other GG level in the state of Zhao, except for maybe Shibashou. Qin on the other hand is loaded. So he's essentially countering the GGs of other states, while having the most incompetent king who can't utilize Riboku to his max.
Ousen dies - Qin won't collapse
SHK dies - Qin won't collapse
Moubu die - Qin won't collapse
Karin dies - Chu won't collapse
so on and so forth
Riboku dies, Zhao is R.I.P.
Which is pretty much happens in actual history as well.
^^ The above is what truly showcases Riboku's greatness, since Hara is being pretty accurate in the overall way the war is happening, with this one being a hard fought victory for Qin as it was in history. I'm assuming he'll more than likely stick to the actual history mentioned above, so if you're not convinced of him being the top dog in the manga right now, then just gotta wait a bit more and see why the man is regarded so high by Ei sei/Renpa/SHK/every other general in the manga.
Planning ahead is part of being a strategist. Ousen/Ouki/etc all plan ahead, hence Ouki even had his own informants. Difference is none of those mfs gotta carry a whole state on their back, Riboku does. You lift the political responsibility from Riboku's shoulder and have him just focus on warfare.. man it's gg.
Now I'm not discounting Yotanwa's greatness, I probably have her higher than most people who voted for Yotanwa in overall generals (In my top 4 at the moment). Just Riboku's just that great. Heck we haven't even seen this side of Riboku yet:
Ousen has: Yotanwa, Kanki (3 individuals who are on the same general level as Riboku)
Riboku has: Nobody of that level other than himself
So Riboku is already at a disadvantage in terms of overall leadership goes for his army. Thus he's bearing more responsibilities for making general plans for each of the battlefields (which we see in little flashbacks in the YTW battle & The right wing battle).
Shukai plains, Ousen's underlings:
- Mouten: Long overdue for a general promotion is easily on par with Kisui, and can be argued for being better than Kisui.
- Ouhon: Just got a huge boost in the arc, something the Zhao generals didn't benefit from.
- Shin: The man is eventually going to become the #1 general in China, and just got a giant boost throughout the arc
- Kyoukai : Same as above
- Karyo Ten: Even though she didn't receive any huge boost strategies wise, she's easily comparable to the elite generals in terms of strategy.
- Makou: A top general who matches up with the likes of Kisui and so
- Akou : A top general who matches up with the likes of Bananji
- Denrimi & the other dude : match up perfectly well the Earls.
Not much point in mentioning Houken when the dude was pretty irrelevant in majority of the battle and only became of some decent relevance at the end, delaying Riboku's retreat that he as going to pull off anyway. This is also crossed off by the fact that a fucked up Shin killed this dude after killing Chougoryuu not long ago.
No matter how you put it, Ousen had the better overall military power under him as afar as individuals go. Dude has a guy who slew Chougaryuu & Houken in the same war, while starving.
Riboku hasn't lived up to the big hype battles? Idk how you would say that. This was the first time he's ever been involved in a fact to face match up against a general, Ousen, who is gonna be the #1 or 2 general in the manga after Riboku's fall, so Riboku's nigh-equal in tactics anddd they were pretty much in a stalemate.
Of course, he's lost battles, he's taken the biggest L in the manga with the Coalition war to an extent the man was essentially exiled. But even despite that he's held as the biggest threat to Qin's Unification. Simply because he plans ahead of time and politics ? Nooope, because the dude is essentially a 1 man-team. He took the L at Sai not because he couldn't take down YTW and Sai, but because he was sure that he wouldn't be able to take down the capital after taking down YTW & Sai. I don't know of any L he's taken in direct battle.
-> He's countered SHK, multiple times in the series
-> He's doing the job of politics & military for the state of Zhao, with no other notable individual supporting him, essentially doing the King's job for him.
-> There's no other GG level in the state of Zhao, except for maybe Shibashou. Qin on the other hand is loaded. So he's essentially countering the GGs of other states, while having the most incompetent king who can't utilize Riboku to his max.
Ousen dies - Qin won't collapse
SHK dies - Qin won't collapse
Moubu die - Qin won't collapse
Karin dies - Chu won't collapse
so on and so forth
Riboku dies, Zhao is R.I.P.
Riboku hands Kanki a L. Qin does pincer (with YTW & Ousen being part of it) from both sides on the capital, Riboku prepares defensive formations, Qin can't get past those defensive formations.. this after Zhao was hit with an earthquake & a famine.. Qin then manipulates the court of Zhao to taking control of the army from Riboku to somebody else, Riboku refuses, Riboku gets killed. Once Qin finds out, they take over Zhao.. because nobody other than Riboku was capable of stopping them.
Planning ahead is part of being a strategist. Ousen/Ouki/etc all plan ahead, hence Ouki even had his own informants. Difference is none of those mfs gotta carry a whole state on their back, Riboku does. You lift the political responsibility from Riboku's shoulder and have him just focus on warfare.. man it's gg.
Now I'm not discounting Yotanwa's greatness, I probably have her higher than most people who voted for Yotanwa in overall generals (In my top 4 at the moment). Just Riboku's just that great. Heck we haven't even seen this side of Riboku yet:
I highlighted to you, how even after having 10 notable Generals under him, and additional advantage of 32k Soldiers, Home territory advantage and Opponent disadvantage of running out on Food, he still lost the war.
In this battle, not only he has only Banaji and Shun Sui ji(instead of 10) and no advantage of Troops, home territory or Food advantage, he is facing the superior Mountain folks with a General as great as YTW who is only a subtier below when it comes to war tactics than him. He is at much disadvantage here together with this Army against Mountain forces.
Okay lemme break it to you.
Ousen has 3 Generals under him for the sole purpose of em being able to encounter 3 difficult situations on their own by acting as individual Armies.
But when he fights Riboku, he does so by himself in Shikai plains and beats him. Kanki and YTW forces didn't influence that battle in anyway.
Houken? One of the Zhou other 3 Great General- Slayed Ouki n Duke Hyou? Was part of the battle that he lost.
Shi ba Shou? One other candidate for the position of Zhou other 3 GG. Didn't play a part bt definitely will in the future.
So you mean to say he was distracted in his battle against Ousen? Hence lost it?
Ousen also has to consider in so many factors to outsmart Riboku in his own home territory, insufficient food for his Army, and so many other unseen new factors that might influence his strategies.
But during the battle, they were mostly focused on the battle in their hands. Beside the Gyou news factor, that forced Riboku to pace up the battle. But the same is true of Ousen since he was always running on time shortage, due to food and enemy territory. If that is your excuse, it is bad one for Riboku loss.
And if you only meant to showcase it as Riboku capabilities, i never questioned it. I am questioning him particularly as a General leading his army during a battle, and here that is not a major factor, to explain his defeat.
In short, Ousen forces only had Mouten, Shin n Ou hon forces other than his own?
And YTW have, Heki alongside his own.
But against Her, Riboku loses 8 of those Notable Generals and other advantages, and is only left with Banaji to slay all of YTW notable fighters on his own? And when 100x time army completely cornering YTW forces already failed. And still win?
That you know is an excuse to attmpt away Riboku inability to use his Resources well.
Great Generals are supposed to utilises their Resources as well as even Enemies resources to their advantage, be it allies or enemies they have em dancing at their tunes. Some GG quoted this.
You remember how Ousen used Shin n Mou Ten during the War? That psychology and tactics he put into the Battle to pump up their abilities?
Riboku instead choooses to reserves Houken strength and save him as wild card. That was his Decision, And it didn't do em much favour, that's Riboku L.
Ofcrs you can try makin another excuse that Houken acts on his own. Try if you wants to, bt we both know Riboku is capable of using Houken in his plans. Or we simply are overestimating him, tho we ain't.
In a war anyone can awaken and slay enemy General, that's different story.
But before the war started they were bt 5000-8,000 men commanders.
While some of Riboku notable General has much better feats, some had even worked under previous Zhou 3 great heaven GGs and even fought against GGs of Qin n others nations, plus 32k additional men, and you are still sayin Riboku lacked Military power?
And you don't feel the same against YTW forces in this matchup?
Interesting excuse that again applies to next battlefield. Lol
So Did he? I can name you Generals that haven't lost single battles in their life times and Riboku has not one but more battles in these past years.
As for the record, YTW also is going to be one of the Greatest Generals in the history of China.
That counts as L, watever way you may try to swing it.
In this current war, against Ousen?
Yes that's what i said, most of his notoriety and threat to unification of China is due to these abilities of Riboku.
But as General overlooking an Army he has tasted defeats and some Generals are better than him.
I didn't wanted to read the spoilers bt i ended up readin some of it.
In short, Riboku will be victor against Ousen n Kanki, could be since Ousen is only following him with 2 of his every 10 Men and are at much disadvantage, with these Men having insufficient food to eat, and being surrounded by Zhou forces.
Tho i do think Riboku is gonna loose again, Gyou city has to fall in Qin hands at this stage or Ousen, Kanki, YTW, Shin n others would get killed.
So History might be referring to later on last battle of Zhou, where Shi Ba shou also will be a factor.
Also Riboku might ultimately be defeated due to Zhou King insupport, bt most likely it will be Shin that will slay Riboku in battle. Everything in the story so far have been builded towards that moment. And the series might not follow the History so closely.
Tho i do think Riboku is gonna loose again, Gyou city has to fall in Qin hands at this stage or Ousen, Kanki, YTW, Shin n others would get killed.
So History might be referring to later on last battle of Zhou, where Shi Ba shou also will be a factor.
Also Riboku might ultimately be defeated due to Zhou King insupport, bt most likely it will be Shin that will slay Riboku in battle. Everything in the story so far have been builded towards that moment. And the series might not follow the History so closely.
Yes you are, even tho Riboku lost the battle at Shukai plains to Ousen after having 9 notable Generals, 32k numbers and food/territory advantage.
And only having two Generals in this war(only 1 he can relay on slay YTW fighters that are many) and, no number or food advantage whatsoever, rather the disadvantage of facing superior mountain forces, a competent Opposing Great General Yo Tan Wa(your Top 4) and his suicidal hounds that have proven to overcome 100x times their numbers(Zhou +Quanrong) in last battle, even after having given up at first but due to YO Tan Wa words and leadership? Bt will loose the battle?
I would say Ba jio alone would be unstoppable in this matchup, since he is slightly inferior version of Houken itself, a complete wildcard that will do the impossible to save YTW. Kitari, Katari, Dento, Tajifu, Shunmen have no counter, not counting Yo Tan Wa herself that slayed Goba in 3slashes. Banaji is equivalent to Rozo, that Dento and Heki slayed. And normal zhoa fodders ain't winning against these with any tactics.
Like i said, if Riboku and YTW both commanded an army of 100,000 Zhou forces, Riboku will undoubtedly come out as Victor. Since strategically he is one subteir above YTW, but there are so many other factors( as Owl ki and I pointed out in our previous posts) in this battle that are just announcing the complete victory for Yo Tan Wa.
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A lot of the feats Xione is pointing out for Riboku aren’t even feats of open warfare, they are feats of pre-battle grand strategy which isn’t a factor in this tournament.
Riboku’s defense of Zhao has been fantastic, but it has almost nothing to do with his abilities in an open war situation, which this battle is a test of.
Yo Tan Wa, with a numerical disadvantage and a starving army, defeated a much larger Quanrong Army with Shun Sui Ju and KO Son Ryu helping. She also was the one who ultimately made Riboku retreat during the coalition war, keep that in mind. These are both direct feats of actual battle.
Riboku’s feats in open warfare are not as great as Xione is making them out to be, and most of them have relied on Riboku having Houken to succeed, who he does not have in this tournament.
Defeating Ouki-he needed Houken to accomplish this
Defeating Gekishin-he needed Houken to accomplish this
Defeating Duke Hyou-he needed Houken to accomplish this
Defeating Yo Tan Wa at Sai-he didn’t, he straight up retreated
Defeating Ousen at Shukai plains-even with Houken he still ended up retreating (granted the reason Ousen “won” is because Qin’s new Gen commanders have evolved to incredible strength levels, but Riboku still gathered mighty generals to face them)
Riboku is, pecimisticly, my second favorite character in all of Kingdom while Yo Tan Wa might crack the top 15 if I’m in a good mood. That said, I have no earthly idea why Riboku’s pre-battle intelligence manipulation, strategy, and deception warrants giving him the win over Yo Tan Wa in an open war scenario when all of Ri Boku’s open war feats have relied on having Houken as his crutch, and when Yo Tan Wa just might be the single strongest open war General in this tournament given the massive strength of her army, her very strong subordinate generals, and her extremely high strategic and leadership abilities.
It doesn’t add up for me.
@Arara @RayanOO @NeutralWatcher @Patryipe @Blackbeard @Date
Riboku’s defense of Zhao has been fantastic, but it has almost nothing to do with his abilities in an open war situation, which this battle is a test of.
Yo Tan Wa, with a numerical disadvantage and a starving army, defeated a much larger Quanrong Army with Shun Sui Ju and KO Son Ryu helping. She also was the one who ultimately made Riboku retreat during the coalition war, keep that in mind. These are both direct feats of actual battle.
Riboku’s feats in open warfare are not as great as Xione is making them out to be, and most of them have relied on Riboku having Houken to succeed, who he does not have in this tournament.
Defeating Ouki-he needed Houken to accomplish this
Defeating Gekishin-he needed Houken to accomplish this
Defeating Duke Hyou-he needed Houken to accomplish this
Defeating Yo Tan Wa at Sai-he didn’t, he straight up retreated
Defeating Ousen at Shukai plains-even with Houken he still ended up retreating (granted the reason Ousen “won” is because Qin’s new Gen commanders have evolved to incredible strength levels, but Riboku still gathered mighty generals to face them)
Riboku is, pecimisticly, my second favorite character in all of Kingdom while Yo Tan Wa might crack the top 15 if I’m in a good mood. That said, I have no earthly idea why Riboku’s pre-battle intelligence manipulation, strategy, and deception warrants giving him the win over Yo Tan Wa in an open war scenario when all of Ri Boku’s open war feats have relied on having Houken as his crutch, and when Yo Tan Wa just might be the single strongest open war General in this tournament given the massive strength of her army, her very strong subordinate generals, and her extremely high strategic and leadership abilities.
It doesn’t add up for me.
@Arara @RayanOO @NeutralWatcher @Patryipe @Blackbeard @Date