General & Others Is this Oda's way of telling us that Kid and Law didn't actually win their fight?

[Conqueror]

So we know chapter 1042 was titled "The Victor Needs No Epithet"

Spoiler

Oda has given us text boxes after certain fights, some of which declare the winner simply by their names, and some of which declare the winner by their name and epithet. For Zoro vs King, Sanji vs Queen, and Raizo vs Fukurokujo, we got text boxes to declare the winner simply by their name.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

It seems obvious that King, Queen, and Fukurokujo are done for the arc and have no role left to play and that Zoro, Sanji, and Raizo were the true victors of their fights.

For Kaido vs Luffy, Oda made it clear that Kaido didn't get a true W against Luffy because of CP0's interference and this was shown by Kaido's dialogue about him not wanting to win like that. As a result, the text box declaring Kaido's victory uses his epithet.

Spoiler

As we know, Luffy awakened his Devil Fruit and returned to the fight after this declaration of victory.

In a similar fashion, the fanbase was pretty disappointed with the way Kid and Law beat Big Mom which was through a combination of outside bombs strong enough to destroy the entirety of Onigashima and a ring out instead of knocking her out with their own abilities. The text box declaring their victory also uses their epithets in a similar fashion to Kaido being declared the "victor".

Spoiler

Is this Oda's way of showing us that Big Mom isn't truly defeated, and that she still has a significant role to play in this arc?

 

[Colt Buntline]

The victor needs no epithet =/= The victor necessarily cannot have any epithet

 

[TepesIII]

Good catch. I'd say that's a fair assumption and I don't think anyone who read the manga can give them a fair W.

 

[Surgeon of death]

Nah just weird reaching. It’s been said time & time again in one piece there aren’t any rules in a fight.

 

[Celestial D. Dragon]

They beat her through a series of happenstance. It's their Victory, but I doubt it is one either can truly be proud of. She ain't done for good though. She'll be back at some point.

 

[Fisher Tiger]

This is actually a pretty good find, but Big Mom is definitely done for the arc

 

[JoNdule]

Everyone knows they can't KO her with their attacks.

One bomb is island level , now add Law and Kid attacks yet she wasn't koed nor done
It took another bomb to keep her down but I don't think she's done for the arc

 

[Kurozumi Giggio]

Nice catch

 

[sanjikun]

The "cheap" win was Law/Kid knocking her into the ocean.

Her being buried with 5% HP left is a legit win. Hence the "last screech of a dying old hag".

 

[Finalbeta]

I think she is most likely done at the very least, I don't see her getting back and having the power to do something important at the very least.

 

[Cherry Hilk]

They just won.
For this arc she’s done, she might return later on as a minor antagonist though…

 

[Charlotte Horchata]

You guys are mixing different things by no checking the Japanese and studying their words.

Descriptive bynames like Straw Hat, Surgeon of Death or King of the Beasts are tsusho (通称) but Kaidou was talking about a rhetoric figure called makurakotoba (枕詞). Only because both can be translated as "epithet" doesn't mean they are the same; heck, even in English "epithet" has tons of different meanings.

When Oda says that the victor needs no epithets he doesn't mean that addressing Kid as "Captain" and Law as "Surgeon of death" delegitimizes their win, but that if samurai were as strong as they are claimed to be they would demonstrate it by their actions instead of their reputation.

For more information, this was my take back in the day about the makurakotoba issue:

I don't think it's meant to be understood in such literal way; here lies a translation issue because the Japanese term "makurakotoba" is quite idiosyncratic, but one of the best explanations I've come across defines it as "filler" words in the sense that they don't modify the meaning of the term they accompany but stress and embelish it; this is indeed translated as "epithet" in many languages, but we shouldn't understand it in the sense of "Kaido, the King of the Beasts" but more like "white snow". This type of epithet with an emphatic function (we know that snow is white, but stressing it adds rhetorical weight) is called epithetum constans.

When Luffy addresses that samurai are strong Kaido confronts him as if "strong samurai" was equivalent to "white snow", and that's exactly why he states that winners don't need makurakotoba: because if you demonstrate you're strong you don't need to support it with an epithetum constans since it's already obvious from your victory; hence why Kaido wonders whether samurai aren't really strong but pretend to be it by building this facade, like grey snow pretending to be white by presenting itself with such epithet.

So I'm afraid you and everybody who is understanding "epithet" as "King of the beasts", "Straw hat", "Surgeon of death"... aren't really getting what a makurakotoba is, in my opinion. Of course I could be wrong since it isn't an easy topic.

 

[Vanlax]

She's done but not dead.

They defeated her in their battle with the help of the bombs.

If they fight again with the same power level they are when they fought and without external factors, Big Mom will win.

If they fight again 2v1 in the future, Big Mom will surely lose because Kidd's & Law's power level will increase after Wano.

Big Mom will be shown to have recovered from being unconscious (if she is), only to witness ZKK. She will have one comment about it and will decide to flee.

:cheers:

 

[Roo]

She’s done for the arc

 

[KonyaruIchi]

If she comes back it's not gonna be in Wano, I'm sure she will be back though, especially with Elbaf happening soon there's no way she cannot get involved, very nice catch.

 

[Lhulu]

They won the fight.
It doesn't mean they're stronger than BM.

 

[HA001]

Yes it does.

 

[Mackiss]

Yes, that was a consistent fight, unlike luffy overpowering Kaido

 

[Monkey D Theories]

what do you mean, she's been passed out in a ditch for the past 7 chapters

 

[Finalbeta]

what do you mean, she's been passed out in a ditch for the past 7 chapters

If she miraculously wakes up soon perhaps she will be in a stage of O Lin once again