Versus Battle Hunter x Hunter vs One Piece
- Thread starter Light D Lamperouge
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You do realise these 2 motives can coexist.
This "inconsistency" you talk about is called character development. He's literally a few weeks old and still learning a lot about the world and how he views things.
He's actually born in 213....and CA arc starts in 186.
Thats 27 chaps actually. And again I dont see whats wrong with that. Those 27 chapters were dedicated to great steady build-up for the arc.
And ? What about it ? Unlike OP, the HxH universe doesnt revolve around Gon. As you can see in the current arc where hes not even a character in it.
He took over and enslaved an entire country and also killed the strongest Nen User. Thats the eqiuvalent of Kaido killing Roger....and then saying he didnt do anything.
Oh so changing your opinions and your beliefs....somehow makes you less believable of a character ? Are you seriously demonizing character development.
I'd understand if you argued Mereum's character development was to quick and had pacing issues...or if you had proof that Mereum's character was flipflopping in the sense that he was progressing and also reverting, thus making him inconsistent.
However you are actually pissed that his character completely grew from where he started. Lol what is this....
This "inconsistency" you talk about is called character development. He's literally a few weeks old and still learning a lot about the world and how he views things.
He's actually born in 213....and CA arc starts in 186.
Thats 27 chaps actually. And again I dont see whats wrong with that. Those 27 chapters were dedicated to great steady build-up for the arc.
And ? What about it ? Unlike OP, the HxH universe doesnt revolve around Gon. As you can see in the current arc where hes not even a character in it.
He took over and enslaved an entire country and also killed the strongest Nen User. Thats the eqiuvalent of Kaido killing Roger....and then saying he didnt do anything.
Oh so changing your opinions and your beliefs....somehow makes you less believable of a character ? Are you seriously demonizing character development.
I'd understand if you argued Mereum's character development was to quick and had pacing issues...or if you had proof that Mereum's character was flipflopping in the sense that he was progressing and also reverting, thus making him inconsistent.
However you are actually pissed that his character completely grew from where he started. Lol what is this....
They can but they don't. Why are you incapable of accepting valid criticism of HxH?
No it isn't. Character development is merely the design of a character's depth (which Meruem has none of), Personality (which Meruem has none of) and motivations (for which Meruem is highly contrived) to propel them through a story (which doesn't happen with Meruem as he also has no staying power) - while the latter is true, learning is a slow process - you still don't change at the flip of the switch constantly. Like, if i were to convince you of these points it will take a very long time and a large number of posts, because people do not just change at the flip of a switch without some kind of neuro-divergences or in some instances mental conditions like for example Schiz. Meruem changed to whatever was convenient at any given time.
To say Meruem is as previously said by someone else here 'one of the best written villains in all of anime' is a fucking joke of an opinion. It spits in the face of some of the greatest characters ever created like Griffith, Johan Liebert, Gendo Ikari, Light Yagami and Vicious amongst others. It is a disgraceful opinion for the reasons I've already discussed.
Semantics and missing the point.
If an arc lacks an antagonist, it is not a compelling story - those 27 chapters are boring, simple as that. This is why the Chimera Ant arc is actually very unpopular. Again, why are you incapable of accepting valid criticism of HxH?
Do you even read/watch OP? The whole point of the worldbuilding is that the Strawhats are just one tiny part of the world as a whole. This is why we get arcs like the Reverie arc or chapters like 957 - as for HxH, you're sort of right sort of not it really depends on the parts of the story. I mean, Greed Island, Heavens Arena, Hunter Exams and the Chairman Election Arcs are all about Gon. Only in Yorknew and the Zoldyck arcs do we see departures from this.
Yes, yes, I already mentioned Netero. Way to go. Ultimately Netero's nothing like Roger in the story though - Roger is the reason anything and everything happens in the main plot. Without Roger there is no OP, no Strawhats, no overarching plot. Without Netero, all that changes is who is in one key position behind the scenes that as of yet has also impacted the story in minimal fashion.
This is a horrendous false equivalence. It's more like a character like Greenbull (very little prior buildup/anticipation but obvs v powerful) showing up, killing somebody like Sengoku and then dying himself as a consequence.
Yes he did enslave a nation, but this ultimately does nothing for the story AT ALL even though by all logical concessions it really should. The fact is all we got out of that entire plotpoint is Gyro's existence, and as far as we know he could be a completely inconsequential character. How it impacted/lack thereof the plot is beyond me but hey, Togashi's writing in the Chimera Ant arc is shoddy so I'm not surprised.
What changed?
No. You don't know what character development even is and that is already very clear. Character development is the mere design of a character. You're attempting to, and failing to discuss character progression. For which you need compelling reasons for change and Meruem has none. Ever.
That's exactly what I am arguing ffs. He changes at the flip of a switch, often with no stimulus for said change. The only time a change is understandable is when he starts losing to Komogi repeatedly, but the outcome of this development itself is complete nonsense in its own right.
No it isn't. Character development is merely the design of a character's depth (which Meruem has none of), Personality (which Meruem has none of) and motivations (for which Meruem is highly contrived) to propel them through a story (which doesn't happen with Meruem as he also has no staying power) - while the latter is true, learning is a slow process - you still don't change at the flip of the switch constantly. Like, if i were to convince you of these points it will take a very long time and a large number of posts, because people do not just change at the flip of a switch without some kind of neuro-divergences or in some instances mental conditions like for example Schiz. Meruem changed to whatever was convenient at any given time.
To say Meruem is as previously said by someone else here 'one of the best written villains in all of anime' is a fucking joke of an opinion. It spits in the face of some of the greatest characters ever created like Griffith, Johan Liebert, Gendo Ikari, Light Yagami and Vicious amongst others. It is a disgraceful opinion for the reasons I've already discussed.
Semantics and missing the point.
If an arc lacks an antagonist, it is not a compelling story - those 27 chapters are boring, simple as that. This is why the Chimera Ant arc is actually very unpopular. Again, why are you incapable of accepting valid criticism of HxH?
Do you even read/watch OP? The whole point of the worldbuilding is that the Strawhats are just one tiny part of the world as a whole. This is why we get arcs like the Reverie arc or chapters like 957 - as for HxH, you're sort of right sort of not it really depends on the parts of the story. I mean, Greed Island, Heavens Arena, Hunter Exams and the Chairman Election Arcs are all about Gon. Only in Yorknew and the Zoldyck arcs do we see departures from this.
Yes, yes, I already mentioned Netero. Way to go. Ultimately Netero's nothing like Roger in the story though - Roger is the reason anything and everything happens in the main plot. Without Roger there is no OP, no Strawhats, no overarching plot. Without Netero, all that changes is who is in one key position behind the scenes that as of yet has also impacted the story in minimal fashion.
This is a horrendous false equivalence. It's more like a character like Greenbull (very little prior buildup/anticipation but obvs v powerful) showing up, killing somebody like Sengoku and then dying himself as a consequence.
Yes he did enslave a nation, but this ultimately does nothing for the story AT ALL even though by all logical concessions it really should. The fact is all we got out of that entire plotpoint is Gyro's existence, and as far as we know he could be a completely inconsequential character. How it impacted/lack thereof the plot is beyond me but hey, Togashi's writing in the Chimera Ant arc is shoddy so I'm not surprised.
What changed?
No. You don't know what character development even is and that is already very clear. Character development is the mere design of a character. You're attempting to, and failing to discuss character progression. For which you need compelling reasons for change and Meruem has none. Ever.
That's exactly what I am arguing ffs. He changes at the flip of a switch, often with no stimulus for said change. The only time a change is understandable is when he starts losing to Komogi repeatedly, but the outcome of this development itself is complete nonsense in its own right.
"They can...but they dont".....what the hell does that mean?
Maybe because its not valid.
Fine my bad....usually we talk about progression as development. But fine lets use it by its literal term.
The entire point of Mereum was that he didnt know who he was. He knew of what he had to be, but he didnt know himself nor even his own name. That was his charactet development....discovering how he fits in this world.
Mereum changed his opinions like 3 times in the entire story if I remember correctly. Not as much as you're insinuating. And each of the reasoning behind it was valid. It wasnt at the flip of the switch....
You're comparing Mereum to antagonists whos been in their stories longer than he did. Mereum is a 1 arc antagonist, that had amazing character progression and a beautifully interesting storyline.
Those 27 chaps at the start is not the full arc. Thus "if an arc lacks an antagonist" is an irrelevant point. Again stop trying to change the story to prove your point.
That's you're own subjective opinion....and to majority of HxH fans and Shonen fans, CA arc is one of the best arcs in Shonen. Its not unpopular.
"Why are you incapable of accepting valid critiscism of HxH", because your critque is disingenious. Why are you incapable of accepting critiscim of your own points ? Why do you have to carry on writing that ? You do realise this a forum where people have discussions.
Why are you changing the argument to world building ? Whos talking about world building....
The OP plot revolves around Luffy, the world revolves around Luffy. The reverie arc barely exists, its like 6 chapters. Please dont even compare this with HxH.
There was nothing wrong with Mereum never meeting Gon....it made zero sense for them to meet anyways.
Netero's death caused the Chairman selection arc and every subsequent arc. The reason they're journing to the Dark Continent is because Netero died. Netero's death has literally caused more arcs, dont act as if his death caused nothing at all.
See this why I wonder if you even read HxH. You're just being disrespectful at this point.
Wdym it did nothing. How different is this from me saying Croc and Doffy enslaving countries did nothing at all to the story. What do you expect the countries to still be enslaved after their defeat ? I dont understand what you want. Enslaving a country that was already under tyranny wont cause a ripple effect on the story anyways.
Character development in this forum and most places always talk about progression....but fine lets just change any instance of me saying development to character progression.
Mereum had multiple compelling reasons to change. That being Komugi, himsrlf and Netero. The one thing you're failing to understand is that Mereum is still literally a newborn and is navigating his way in life. His opinions, actions and beliefs will change...and with far more ease than an adult whos lived decades longer.
And yet still his reasons for progressing were compelling and realistic. Again reread the arc.
You seemed you were literally just angry for his character just changing opinion....you barely mentioned anything about why you hated the reasoning behind it.
And Mereum's changes always had reasoning and stimuli. Again reread the arc if you are so willing to critique.
Maybe because its not valid.
Fine my bad....usually we talk about progression as development. But fine lets use it by its literal term.
The entire point of Mereum was that he didnt know who he was. He knew of what he had to be, but he didnt know himself nor even his own name. That was his charactet development....discovering how he fits in this world.
Mereum changed his opinions like 3 times in the entire story if I remember correctly. Not as much as you're insinuating. And each of the reasoning behind it was valid. It wasnt at the flip of the switch....
You're comparing Mereum to antagonists whos been in their stories longer than he did. Mereum is a 1 arc antagonist, that had amazing character progression and a beautifully interesting storyline.
Those 27 chaps at the start is not the full arc. Thus "if an arc lacks an antagonist" is an irrelevant point. Again stop trying to change the story to prove your point.
That's you're own subjective opinion....and to majority of HxH fans and Shonen fans, CA arc is one of the best arcs in Shonen. Its not unpopular.
"Why are you incapable of accepting valid critiscism of HxH", because your critque is disingenious. Why are you incapable of accepting critiscim of your own points ? Why do you have to carry on writing that ? You do realise this a forum where people have discussions.
Why are you changing the argument to world building ? Whos talking about world building....
The OP plot revolves around Luffy, the world revolves around Luffy. The reverie arc barely exists, its like 6 chapters. Please dont even compare this with HxH.
There was nothing wrong with Mereum never meeting Gon....it made zero sense for them to meet anyways.
Netero's death caused the Chairman selection arc and every subsequent arc. The reason they're journing to the Dark Continent is because Netero died. Netero's death has literally caused more arcs, dont act as if his death caused nothing at all.
See this why I wonder if you even read HxH. You're just being disrespectful at this point.
Wdym it did nothing. How different is this from me saying Croc and Doffy enslaving countries did nothing at all to the story. What do you expect the countries to still be enslaved after their defeat ? I dont understand what you want. Enslaving a country that was already under tyranny wont cause a ripple effect on the story anyways.
Character development in this forum and most places always talk about progression....but fine lets just change any instance of me saying development to character progression.
Mereum had multiple compelling reasons to change. That being Komugi, himsrlf and Netero. The one thing you're failing to understand is that Mereum is still literally a newborn and is navigating his way in life. His opinions, actions and beliefs will change...and with far more ease than an adult whos lived decades longer.
And yet still his reasons for progressing were compelling and realistic. Again reread the arc.
You seemed you were literally just angry for his character just changing opinion....you barely mentioned anything about why you hated the reasoning behind it.
And Mereum's changes always had reasoning and stimuli. Again reread the arc if you are so willing to critique.
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Not a villain, he's barely even antagonist as he assists gon in most arcs not opposes him like in greed island verbatim helped at no benefit to himself and verbatim slacked at what illumi ordered him to do in the zoofiac arc so killua could save gon with alluka
Whatever gave you the idea, that he was a antagonist
yea had the same issue when watching the show, his motives just arent that consistent with one another
some of the changes makes sense like him growing to like humans though his bond with the blind girl but his sudden like for his race never made sense like he just starts being super nationalistic for no reason, for the chimera ant people, the story really has no understanding of irony when you remember that meleoron at the same time was wrote to want revenge on the king for the murder of his adoptive father peggy yet were supposed to take his claims of caring for chimera ants seriously when he directly killed more of them then any the literal extermination team has
netero didt even get killed ether, he blow himself up in a kamikaze style move
Pitou, his literal henchwoman killed kaito which had more narrative importance on the main cast then anything chimera ant king ever did but that's kinda the problem, chimera ants are supposed to be treated as individual characters but to take them as a threat, you have count all the killings they did independent to one another to see them as a threat hell there's entire scenes of rando chimera ants killing rando humans just to show bad they all are
for one, that's untrue
The chimera ant queen was the functional antagonist before the chimera king ant was born
and anime have worked fine without a antagonist like you mentioned gendo ikari right and that show, evangelion has no real villains with gendo not really being a villain. shinji's villain is himself and his own failures like he sees himself as bad to the point where he was fine with invading soldiers killing him.
humans are the same thing as animals from a behavior and biological perspective, both share the same organs ,genetic code and have the same instinct for self preservation. it's only human arrogance which prevents man from admitting that is a a beast no different to a dog, you bleed,the same way as a dog and your bones vrack in the same way under pressure very fact that you have nigh identical anatomy to a animal is proof enough in it of itself
vicious from cowboy bebop is not that good of a villian, he's just freeza
he's bad for the sake of it and only is as well received as he would be due to his past connections with already existing characters, spike and vegeta if you take away that context what can you can tell me about their characters well they slaughtered people for the benefit of their criminal empire and are merciless not that interesting of a character on it's lonesome
Imagine comparing somebody like him to griffith, who's conflict is relatable and understandable also does not require the need of external forces to validate. The thing that makes him great is that he has the struggle between his motive and his personal connections with him feeling guilt over the bodies that came in his wake with him verbatim cutting himself at one point, Casca stopped him but it's the point of it all. he feels remorse over his actions but moves forward anyway as stopping would make their deaths worthless, What did they die for if griffith just gives up
could go on but comparing griffith to vicious as if their at all comparable in terms of quality is a literal joke of a statement
Yea, I entirely agree having meruem just magically change from scene to scene as he does and calling that character development is a joke.
Imagine if vegeta or piccolo instead of having hundreds of episodes to mellow out and become members of functional society just suddenly became good, it would ruin entire scenes like the infamous vegeta self sacrifice scene or the piccolo saving gohan scene
for one, that's untrue
The chimera ant queen was the functional antagonist before the chimera king ant was born
and anime have worked fine without a antagonist like you mentioned gendo ikari right and that show, evangelion has no real villains with gendo not really being a villain. shinji's villain is himself and his own failures like he sees himself as bad to the point where he was fine with invading soldiers killing him.
humans are the same thing as animals from a behavior and biological perspective, both share the same organs ,genetic code and have the same instinct for self preservation. it's only human arrogance which prevents man from admitting that is a a beast no different to a dog, you bleed,the same way as a dog and your bones vrack in the same way under pressure very fact that you have nigh identical anatomy to a animal is proof enough in it of itself
vicious from cowboy bebop is not that good of a villian, he's just freeza
he's bad for the sake of it and only is as well received as he would be due to his past connections with already existing characters, spike and vegeta if you take away that context what can you can tell me about their characters well they slaughtered people for the benefit of their criminal empire and are merciless not that interesting of a character on it's lonesome
Imagine comparing somebody like him to griffith, who's conflict is relatable and understandable also does not require the need of external forces to validate. The thing that makes him great is that he has the struggle between his motive and his personal connections with him feeling guilt over the bodies that came in his wake with him verbatim cutting himself at one point, Casca stopped him but it's the point of it all. he feels remorse over his actions but moves forward anyway as stopping would make their deaths worthless, What did they die for if griffith just gives up
could go on but comparing griffith to vicious as if their at all comparable in terms of quality is a literal joke of a statement
Yea, I entirely agree having meruem just magically change from scene to scene as he does and calling that character development is a joke.
Imagine if vegeta or piccolo instead of having hundreds of episodes to mellow out and become members of functional society just suddenly became good, it would ruin entire scenes like the infamous vegeta self sacrifice scene or the piccolo saving gohan scene
Whatever gave you the idea, that he was a antagonist
yea had the same issue when watching the show, his motives just arent that consistent with one another
some of the changes makes sense like him growing to like humans though his bond with the blind girl but his sudden like for his race never made sense like he just starts being super nationalistic for no reason, for the chimera ant people, the story really has no understanding of irony when you remember that meleoron at the same time was wrote to want revenge on the king for the murder of his adoptive father peggy yet were supposed to take his claims of caring for chimera ants seriously when he directly killed more of them then any the literal extermination team has
netero didt even get killed ether, he blow himself up in a kamikaze style move
Pitou, his literal henchwoman killed kaito which had more narrative importance on the main cast then anything chimera ant king ever did but that's kinda the problem, chimera ants are supposed to be treated as individual characters but to take them as a threat, you have count all the killings they did independent to one another to see them as a threat hell there's entire scenes of rando chimera ants killing rando humans just to show bad they all are
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for one, that's untrue
The chimera ant queen was the functional antagonist before the chimera king ant was born
and anime have worked fine without a antagonist like you mentioned gendo ikari right and that show, evangelion has no real villains with gendo not really being a villain. shinji's villain is himself and his own failures like he sees himself as bad to the point where he was fine with invading soldiers killing him.
humans are the same thing as animals from a behavior and biological perspective, both share the same organs ,genetic code and have the same instinct for self preservation. it's only human arrogance which prevents man from admitting that is a a beast no different to a dog, you bleed,the same way as a dog and your bones vrack in the same way under pressure very fact that you have nigh identical anatomy to a animal is proof enough in it of itself
vicious from cowboy bebop is not that good of a villian, he's just freeza
he's bad for the sake of it and only is as well received as he would be due to his past connections with already existing characters, spike and vegeta if you take away that context what can you can tell me about their characters well they slaughtered people for the benefit of their criminal empire and are merciless not that interesting of a character on it's lonesome
Imagine comparing somebody like him to griffith, who's conflict is relatable and understandable also does not require the need of external forces to validate. The thing that makes him great is that he has the struggle between his motive and his personal connections with him feeling guilt over the bodies that came in his wake with him verbatim cutting himself at one point, Casca stopped him but it's the point of it all. he feels remorse over his actions but moves forward anyway as stopping would make their deaths worthless, What did they die for if griffith just gives up
could go on but comparing griffith to vicious as if their at all comparable in terms of quality is a literal joke of a statement
Yea, I entirely agree having meruem just magically change from scene to scene as he does and calling that character development is a joke.
Imagine if vegeta or piccolo instead of having hundreds of episodes to mellow out and become members of functional society just suddenly became good, it would ruin entire scenes like the infamous vegeta self sacrifice scene or the piccolo saving gohan scene
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for one, that's untrue
The chimera ant queen was the functional antagonist before the chimera king ant was born
and anime have worked fine without a antagonist like you mentioned gendo ikari right and that show, evangelion has no real villains with gendo not really being a villain. shinji's villain is himself and his own failures like he sees himself as bad to the point where he was fine with invading soldiers killing him.
humans are the same thing as animals from a behavior and biological perspective, both share the same organs ,genetic code and have the same instinct for self preservation. it's only human arrogance which prevents man from admitting that is a a beast no different to a dog, you bleed,the same way as a dog and your bones vrack in the same way under pressure very fact that you have nigh identical anatomy to a animal is proof enough in it of itself
vicious from cowboy bebop is not that good of a villian, he's just freeza
he's bad for the sake of it and only is as well received as he would be due to his past connections with already existing characters, spike and vegeta if you take away that context what can you can tell me about their characters well they slaughtered people for the benefit of their criminal empire and are merciless not that interesting of a character on it's lonesome
Imagine comparing somebody like him to griffith, who's conflict is relatable and understandable also does not require the need of external forces to validate. The thing that makes him great is that he has the struggle between his motive and his personal connections with him feeling guilt over the bodies that came in his wake with him verbatim cutting himself at one point, Casca stopped him but it's the point of it all. he feels remorse over his actions but moves forward anyway as stopping would make their deaths worthless, What did they die for if griffith just gives up
could go on but comparing griffith to vicious as if their at all comparable in terms of quality is a literal joke of a statement
Yea, I entirely agree having meruem just magically change from scene to scene as he does and calling that character development is a joke.
Imagine if vegeta or piccolo instead of having hundreds of episodes to mellow out and become members of functional society just suddenly became good, it would ruin entire scenes like the infamous vegeta self sacrifice scene or the piccolo saving gohan scene
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The point is very obvious but if I have to spell everything out for you then I will. They can coexist with competent writing. But they do not coexist in Meruems case specifically. I didn't know I had to write these criticisms essay style in order to stop getting stupid responses but here we are.
My original point in this specific criticism about Meruems motivation regards specific changes and the progression of his changes which by and large are not themself an issue. The issue is the progression of his character is poorly written. The case-in-point here is the motivations described above and how they can co-exist but do not. As soon as Meruem decides to prove his strength he stops trying to develop his strength. A well written character would start at the baseline of developing their strength with the aim in continuing to do so alongside any future goals. A well written character will always have a baseline motivation for which all other future changes/developments/changes will always comparable to as a point of reference. Meruem's motivational point of reference becomes non-existent. This is why I say they do not coexist and why Meruem is an inconsistent character. If pursuit of strength remained a secondary goal, none of my criticism would be valid and I would actually praise the writing of his character.
It is definitely valid - just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is invalid. This is classic cognitive disonnance - not sure why I am even bothering here.
It's a common mistake and they're pretty inextricable in actuality when it comes to development and progression - however when talking on specific aspects the terms are often muddled.
And yet Meruem knows from birth that he is the King of the Chimera Ants. He is born knowing his identity and yet knowing none of his identity. Do you not see how this can be (and is) problematic? This is a textbook example of a writing fallacy known as
problematica identitatis.
If Meruem didn't even know he was king, or who the guards were etc. from birth then his journey of discovery would be valid. But it sadly isn't and further to this, the journey of discovery about himself would be more well written with the anchorage of a consistent goal from the very start that persists until his death (which he lacks).
Which is 3 times too many given the impetus that led him to changing these views was non-existent. Well written characters reflect people and what people do (as long as the character is human or human-like). This include anthropomorphic characters like Meruem. I have to ask you whether you've ever met anyone in real life or online who changes their mind, especially on something significant like their literal reason for existence and purpose in life, based on what is summarily nothing at all.
Only one of the three changes is prompted in any way (through consistent defeats to Komogi). This is the only believable change and even then the results are disappointing. Meruem is of the view that humans are valueless at this point in time and that he and other Chimera Ants are superior - he maintains this view in spite of the fact humans have been killing and proven their strength to be superior to Chimera Ants in some cases. To make this even worse he is aware that humans have far greater knowledge of concepts and facets of the HxH universe like Nen, yet he still considers all humans as trash and worthless. He then changes to believing there are exceptions as some humans are worth sparing not because humans have already proven through other numerous ways that they would have value to him or the Chimera Ants as a whole, but because he lost a game several times. Furthermore this conclusion he eventually comes to (and should have come to far earlier) is half-hearted. This change SHOULD bring about Meruem questioning his old beliefs and challenging them and perhaps even challenging the beliefs of other Chimera Ants which is what is expected of a King and ruler serving in the capacity that he does - if there are humans more intelligent than him based on the TINY SAMPLE that he ever met, why should he conclude a handful are worthy of saving and not many? A sign of intelligence is the ability to question oneself and challenge their own views. Meruem does not does this and selectively writing him as a dumbass and intelligent is another flaw in Togashi's writing and another inconsistency within Meruem's character.
Yes he is a 1 arc antagonist. 1 Arc antagonists are by definition less well written as there is less writing for them to begin with. It is the same reason why antagonists like Teach and Doflamingo are so great and why in almost any fictional story the greatest antagonist(s) are rarely those with cameos.
They are included within said arc and therefore any criticism for that part of the arc is relevant to criticisms to the arc as a whole. I have changed nothing and find this accusation bizarre. It comes across as an attempt to gaslight me or my comments which usually is a tactic used in debates and discussions when no other relevant points can be made to challenge another.
CA arc was literally polled as the least popular Hunter x Hunter arc amongst the Japanese fanbase. It is a widely held opinion. It may be one of the best arcs in shonen, top 5% even. However when discussing stories of the caliber and quality of One Piece and HxH that isn't good enough to make the cut for 'best arcs' when making said comparisons between the two. Think of it as if the stories were top achieving students who expect A*, A grades - the Chimera Ant is a C or B grade and an underachievement, but still a passing grade. That's the best way of contextualising my points here.
There has been nothing disingenuous as this comment you're currently reading should have proven to you by now. I am happy to challenge and discuss genuine criticisms of my own points. Your comment is more of a 'no u' type argument than anything of substance on several points.
It all interlinks and world building was one of the comparatives set out within the original post. Why is discussing worldbuilding now an issue?
Your original point was that the HxH world does not revolve around Gon and therefore Meruem doesn't need to have anything to do with Gon. This is a point that YOU made about worldbuilding. My contestion and contention to this point is that while this is true, One Piece does it better (a lot better) in spite of what you said and furthermore while Meruem doesn't need to have any association to Gon (and doesn't) the best antagonists in fiction fundamentally require some form of conflict with the main protagonist as that character is the character with the most investment from a reading perspective in the entire story. This is applicable to all of fiction that has ever and will ever exist and is typically discussed as the single most fundamental tenet of writing a good antagonist. Meruem does not fulfill this criteria in any way.
You can still like the character, however this fundamental flaw in how he is written makes him a less compelling villain with far less audience investment in Meruem as a consequence - this is what makes him a poorly written villain alongside the points already touched upon above. However this is the single most important point and if there is anything I want you to acknowledge or understand in this response it is the fact that Meruem and Gon are disjointed and unrelated.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of One Piece then. The plot revolves around Luffy's journey, not Luffy as a person. Symptomatically you will therefore see a lot of Luffy. As touched on above, yes there is an issue - the fact the story didn't facilitate any kind of relationship is a fundamental flaw in writing a strong antagonistic character.
Which was in fact, as I was reminded by another user, not even Meruem's own doing but Netero's choice to begin with. Netero's death is inconsequential though - it's a thing that happens and the story just goes 'oh well, let's just LITERALLY REPLACE HIM WITH HIS SON, AS IF HE NEVER DIED and REPLACE HIS POLITICAL POSITION, AS IF HE NEVER DIED'. Story progression driven by Meruem would be if he himself killed Netero, and the chairman arc ultimately having a greater impact than simply replacing his role as chairman. The other main points of the arc such as introduction of characters, Gons post Pitou-fight situation could all have been handled and would have been handled at some point even if Meruem never existed. Meruem's net impact on the story is therefore minimum.
I am allowed to like something and critique said thing that I like. If you're incapable of even respecting freedom of thought and speech I have no idea why I am even dignifying you with a reply.
No you're right. Those are criticisms I also carry for Crocodile in particular. Doflamingo had a lasting impact through the writing that surrounds his actions and behaviours (such as SMILE production), something that was first introduced to the story as early as the Skypiea Arcs conclusion almost 500 chapters prior to Doflamingo's eventually story arc ending (and it may not have finished even now, only time will tell). This goes back to my earlier point that single-arc villains suffer as a result of their situation being started, carried through and concluded upon within a single section of story.
I can tell youre not able to differentiate and apply criticisms fairly and consider what informs the criticism in the first place so I am quite confident you'll come back to me with a redundant point on this that I will have already addressed or that an implied answer will already have been covered here.
And in doing so this still doesn't improve your responses.
As addressed above changing oneself by oneself with no external input is not compelling. Netero did not change Meruem as a character in any way other than killing him. That isn't compelling change. That's ending the character as a whole.
As addressed above I usually would cede on this point but I had already considered this within my own opinions to begin with.
I have fully indulged you in the reasoning in this answer above. Apparently connotation is beyond you so I've gone into a lot of depth. Hopefully it helped you to understand a bit more as to why I am saying what I said and what I actually mean by what has been argued. I don't hate anything about Meruem. He's too much of a 'meh' character. He's not written well enough for me to hate anything about him. That's the sad and disappointing this in the first place.
My original point in this specific criticism about Meruems motivation regards specific changes and the progression of his changes which by and large are not themself an issue. The issue is the progression of his character is poorly written. The case-in-point here is the motivations described above and how they can co-exist but do not. As soon as Meruem decides to prove his strength he stops trying to develop his strength. A well written character would start at the baseline of developing their strength with the aim in continuing to do so alongside any future goals. A well written character will always have a baseline motivation for which all other future changes/developments/changes will always comparable to as a point of reference. Meruem's motivational point of reference becomes non-existent. This is why I say they do not coexist and why Meruem is an inconsistent character. If pursuit of strength remained a secondary goal, none of my criticism would be valid and I would actually praise the writing of his character.
It is definitely valid - just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is invalid. This is classic cognitive disonnance - not sure why I am even bothering here.
It's a common mistake and they're pretty inextricable in actuality when it comes to development and progression - however when talking on specific aspects the terms are often muddled.
And yet Meruem knows from birth that he is the King of the Chimera Ants. He is born knowing his identity and yet knowing none of his identity. Do you not see how this can be (and is) problematic? This is a textbook example of a writing fallacy known as
problematica identitatis.
If Meruem didn't even know he was king, or who the guards were etc. from birth then his journey of discovery would be valid. But it sadly isn't and further to this, the journey of discovery about himself would be more well written with the anchorage of a consistent goal from the very start that persists until his death (which he lacks).
Which is 3 times too many given the impetus that led him to changing these views was non-existent. Well written characters reflect people and what people do (as long as the character is human or human-like). This include anthropomorphic characters like Meruem. I have to ask you whether you've ever met anyone in real life or online who changes their mind, especially on something significant like their literal reason for existence and purpose in life, based on what is summarily nothing at all.
Only one of the three changes is prompted in any way (through consistent defeats to Komogi). This is the only believable change and even then the results are disappointing. Meruem is of the view that humans are valueless at this point in time and that he and other Chimera Ants are superior - he maintains this view in spite of the fact humans have been killing and proven their strength to be superior to Chimera Ants in some cases. To make this even worse he is aware that humans have far greater knowledge of concepts and facets of the HxH universe like Nen, yet he still considers all humans as trash and worthless. He then changes to believing there are exceptions as some humans are worth sparing not because humans have already proven through other numerous ways that they would have value to him or the Chimera Ants as a whole, but because he lost a game several times. Furthermore this conclusion he eventually comes to (and should have come to far earlier) is half-hearted. This change SHOULD bring about Meruem questioning his old beliefs and challenging them and perhaps even challenging the beliefs of other Chimera Ants which is what is expected of a King and ruler serving in the capacity that he does - if there are humans more intelligent than him based on the TINY SAMPLE that he ever met, why should he conclude a handful are worthy of saving and not many? A sign of intelligence is the ability to question oneself and challenge their own views. Meruem does not does this and selectively writing him as a dumbass and intelligent is another flaw in Togashi's writing and another inconsistency within Meruem's character.
Yes he is a 1 arc antagonist. 1 Arc antagonists are by definition less well written as there is less writing for them to begin with. It is the same reason why antagonists like Teach and Doflamingo are so great and why in almost any fictional story the greatest antagonist(s) are rarely those with cameos.
They are included within said arc and therefore any criticism for that part of the arc is relevant to criticisms to the arc as a whole. I have changed nothing and find this accusation bizarre. It comes across as an attempt to gaslight me or my comments which usually is a tactic used in debates and discussions when no other relevant points can be made to challenge another.
CA arc was literally polled as the least popular Hunter x Hunter arc amongst the Japanese fanbase. It is a widely held opinion. It may be one of the best arcs in shonen, top 5% even. However when discussing stories of the caliber and quality of One Piece and HxH that isn't good enough to make the cut for 'best arcs' when making said comparisons between the two. Think of it as if the stories were top achieving students who expect A*, A grades - the Chimera Ant is a C or B grade and an underachievement, but still a passing grade. That's the best way of contextualising my points here.
There has been nothing disingenuous as this comment you're currently reading should have proven to you by now. I am happy to challenge and discuss genuine criticisms of my own points. Your comment is more of a 'no u' type argument than anything of substance on several points.
It all interlinks and world building was one of the comparatives set out within the original post. Why is discussing worldbuilding now an issue?
Your original point was that the HxH world does not revolve around Gon and therefore Meruem doesn't need to have anything to do with Gon. This is a point that YOU made about worldbuilding. My contestion and contention to this point is that while this is true, One Piece does it better (a lot better) in spite of what you said and furthermore while Meruem doesn't need to have any association to Gon (and doesn't) the best antagonists in fiction fundamentally require some form of conflict with the main protagonist as that character is the character with the most investment from a reading perspective in the entire story. This is applicable to all of fiction that has ever and will ever exist and is typically discussed as the single most fundamental tenet of writing a good antagonist. Meruem does not fulfill this criteria in any way.
You can still like the character, however this fundamental flaw in how he is written makes him a less compelling villain with far less audience investment in Meruem as a consequence - this is what makes him a poorly written villain alongside the points already touched upon above. However this is the single most important point and if there is anything I want you to acknowledge or understand in this response it is the fact that Meruem and Gon are disjointed and unrelated.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of One Piece then. The plot revolves around Luffy's journey, not Luffy as a person. Symptomatically you will therefore see a lot of Luffy. As touched on above, yes there is an issue - the fact the story didn't facilitate any kind of relationship is a fundamental flaw in writing a strong antagonistic character.
Which was in fact, as I was reminded by another user, not even Meruem's own doing but Netero's choice to begin with. Netero's death is inconsequential though - it's a thing that happens and the story just goes 'oh well, let's just LITERALLY REPLACE HIM WITH HIS SON, AS IF HE NEVER DIED and REPLACE HIS POLITICAL POSITION, AS IF HE NEVER DIED'. Story progression driven by Meruem would be if he himself killed Netero, and the chairman arc ultimately having a greater impact than simply replacing his role as chairman. The other main points of the arc such as introduction of characters, Gons post Pitou-fight situation could all have been handled and would have been handled at some point even if Meruem never existed. Meruem's net impact on the story is therefore minimum.
I am allowed to like something and critique said thing that I like. If you're incapable of even respecting freedom of thought and speech I have no idea why I am even dignifying you with a reply.
No you're right. Those are criticisms I also carry for Crocodile in particular. Doflamingo had a lasting impact through the writing that surrounds his actions and behaviours (such as SMILE production), something that was first introduced to the story as early as the Skypiea Arcs conclusion almost 500 chapters prior to Doflamingo's eventually story arc ending (and it may not have finished even now, only time will tell). This goes back to my earlier point that single-arc villains suffer as a result of their situation being started, carried through and concluded upon within a single section of story.
I can tell youre not able to differentiate and apply criticisms fairly and consider what informs the criticism in the first place so I am quite confident you'll come back to me with a redundant point on this that I will have already addressed or that an implied answer will already have been covered here.
And in doing so this still doesn't improve your responses.
As addressed above changing oneself by oneself with no external input is not compelling. Netero did not change Meruem as a character in any way other than killing him. That isn't compelling change. That's ending the character as a whole.
As addressed above I usually would cede on this point but I had already considered this within my own opinions to begin with.
I have fully indulged you in the reasoning in this answer above. Apparently connotation is beyond you so I've gone into a lot of depth. Hopefully it helped you to understand a bit more as to why I am saying what I said and what I actually mean by what has been argued. I don't hate anything about Meruem. He's too much of a 'meh' character. He's not written well enough for me to hate anything about him. That's the sad and disappointing this in the first place.
- Plot - Hunter x Hunter
-Main characters - Hunter x Hunter
- Side characters - Hunter x Hunter
-Villains - Hunter x Hunter
-Character design - Hunter x Hunter
-Power system - HxH for light years
-Story arcs - Hunter x Hunter
-Embedding themes - Hunter x Hunter
-Art - IDK
-Panels - OP
-Originality - =
-Building the world - OP
-Characterization - OP
-Pleasure - HxH
-Main characters - Hunter x Hunter
- Side characters - Hunter x Hunter
-Villains - Hunter x Hunter
-Character design - Hunter x Hunter
-Power system - HxH for light years
-Story arcs - Hunter x Hunter
-Embedding themes - Hunter x Hunter
-Art - IDK
-Panels - OP
-Originality - =
-Building the world - OP
-Characterization - OP
-Pleasure - HxH
