Questions & Mysteries Who is the traitor?
- Thread starter Johnny B. Decent
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I don't think it's Kanjuro or Shinobu.
And definitely not Carrot. I mean stop wjth this hate train, i also am no fan of her joining the crew bt it should be pretty clear Oda won't do a kid like that. He can't even draw evil female characters and Carrot had too much of imp panels with SHs for her to betray em. Infact wasn't this mentioned she for the first time moved out to sea with the SHs.
I think it would be someone else. I haven't gathered my thoughts on this yet, i will make a post on possible suspects later on. Bt reading the posts so far, dots don't connect well with Kanjuro n Shinobu.
And definitely not Carrot. I mean stop wjth this hate train, i also am no fan of her joining the crew bt it should be pretty clear Oda won't do a kid like that. He can't even draw evil female characters and Carrot had too much of imp panels with SHs for her to betray em. Infact wasn't this mentioned she for the first time moved out to sea with the SHs.
I think it would be someone else. I haven't gathered my thoughts on this yet, i will make a post on possible suspects later on. Bt reading the posts so far, dots don't connect well with Kanjuro n Shinobu.
I think there could potentially be two :p Kiku & Neko. I'm about to crash so can't elaborate on the theory too much, but not sure if y'all have noticed, but Oda uses a characteristic circular pattern on the kimonos of Orochi's subordinates e.g. Kyoshiro, Kamazou, Fukurokuju etc. and both Kiku and Neko both have said pattern on their Kimonos as well.
As a supplement:
- Kiku and Kinemon seem to have a very close familiar relationship (can't remeber exactly if it was master/student) and they also have opposing themes i.e. Firefox Kinemon and Kiku of the lingering snow.
- Inu and Neko seem to have been captured by Orochi's subordinates 20 years ago, how did they escape? The reason for Neko's betrayal could potentially be related to that not to mention it'd be sick to see Inu and Neko go at it. Plus, food for thought, but there's a stereotype that Dog's are loyal to their masters, whereas cats aren't lolz so this could potentially come into play here :p
As a supplement:
- Kiku and Kinemon seem to have a very close familiar relationship (can't remeber exactly if it was master/student) and they also have opposing themes i.e. Firefox Kinemon and Kiku of the lingering snow.
- Inu and Neko seem to have been captured by Orochi's subordinates 20 years ago, how did they escape? The reason for Neko's betrayal could potentially be related to that not to mention it'd be sick to see Inu and Neko go at it. Plus, food for thought, but there's a stereotype that Dog's are loyal to their masters, whereas cats aren't lolz so this could potentially come into play here :p
I don't think him being away prevents him from getting info on the state of affairs of the alliance. Given Neko is one of the alliance leaders, it'd make sense that he's been getting regular updates on the alliance via den-den mushi or something. I mean how does he even coordinate his actions with those of the alliance if he doesn't know the details of the plan. With regards to Kiku and Udon, I don' think there's any reason for Orochi to have explicitly mentioned the state of affairs on Udon, when all the rebels including those on Udon are going to be gathering at Tokage port. Also at this point does Udon really even matter? All the rebels on Udon are already on their way to Tokage IIRC.
I did this myself when trying to work out who it was. There is not a single candidate the traitor could be without us having to assume that they found out extra information off screen. Every candidate is shown to not have had access to certain information which was leaked.
We can go through the 3 points that were leaked and review who that disqualifies:
1. The traitor knew Raizou was on Zou
-The only people that knew this information for sure were the minks. Kiku, Kanjuro and Kin emon were told Raizou would be attempting to reach Zou, but none of them knew whether it made it or not.
2. The traitor knew about the crescent moon rebellion symbol
-The scabbards and Momo knew about this from when they time-travelled. The info was revealed to the straw hats, heart pirates and Carrot when they arrived.
3. The traitor knew Hiyori was alive and in the north
Whilst Hiyori's status was told at the recent meeting, only Kawamatsu, Zoro and Gyukimaru know that Hiyori is in the north, as her location was never revealed at the meeting.
It's quite clear from this that either there is a plot hole, multiple traitors, or a cop out where Oda had a character learn something off screen, preventing readers from even being able to suspect them. Quite different from usual traitor plot lines. Whilst usually there are multiple suspects and people it could be, in this case there seems to be literally no one due to lack of information.
We can go through the 3 points that were leaked and review who that disqualifies:
1. The traitor knew Raizou was on Zou
-The only people that knew this information for sure were the minks. Kiku, Kanjuro and Kin emon were told Raizou would be attempting to reach Zou, but none of them knew whether it made it or not.
2. The traitor knew about the crescent moon rebellion symbol
-The scabbards and Momo knew about this from when they time-travelled. The info was revealed to the straw hats, heart pirates and Carrot when they arrived.
3. The traitor knew Hiyori was alive and in the north
Whilst Hiyori's status was told at the recent meeting, only Kawamatsu, Zoro and Gyukimaru know that Hiyori is in the north, as her location was never revealed at the meeting.
It's quite clear from this that either there is a plot hole, multiple traitors, or a cop out where Oda had a character learn something off screen, preventing readers from even being able to suspect them. Quite different from usual traitor plot lines. Whilst usually there are multiple suspects and people it could be, in this case there seems to be literally no one due to lack of information.
For me, I always viewed the idea of Law betraying Luffy if it EVER happened, that he does it for himself and for own ambithion of being PK and not to serve another like Orochi or Kaido
By the way guys, I saw a new detail that can be added to the list of suspicious things Kanjuro has. This point was RECENTLY made by Marco the theorist on Youtube who uploaded the view very recently. He actually provided something really fascinating. During Dressrosa, when people were hunting the SHs and looking for them to capture them and hand them to Doffy. This was Kanjuro's doing. He pretended that it was a foolish and goofy act, BUT it can also be something intentional and he did it on purpose to help Doffy's side in secret
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By the way guys, I saw a new detail that can be added to the list of suspicious things Kanjuro has. This point was RECENTLY made by Marco the theorist on Youtube who uploaded the view very recently. He actually provided something really fascinating. During Dressrosa, when people were hunting the SHs and looking for them to capture them and hand them to Doffy. This was Kanjuro's doing. He pretended that it was a foolish and goofy act, BUT it can also be something intentional and he did it on purpose to help Doffy's side in secret
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Only because you're somehow hellbent to see that happened, it doesn't make it likely at all.
There are very few arguments FOR her being the traitor.
@Kejon Now if you showed me something like this earlier, I would've been much more open to a "Carrot is the traitor" discussion ;)
There are very few arguments FOR her being the traitor.
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There is more this:
I like this idea.
I imagine that when Carrot reveal herself as the traitor,her reasons and how she fooled everyone so far and try join the enemies's side,all them will treat her as worthless,Perospero will kill her and Chopper will defeat Perospero in a fight of the same proportions of Luffy vs Doflamingo,showing once and for all for everyone how he's endlessly better than any Mink would ever be in SHC.
Don't worry. She never was going became a SHP for start. Do you even find her "history" with them great enough for this?
I like this idea.
I imagine that when Carrot reveal herself as the traitor,her reasons and how she fooled everyone so far and try join the enemies's side,all them will treat her as worthless,Perospero will kill her and Chopper will defeat Perospero in a fight of the same proportions of Luffy vs Doflamingo,showing once and for all for everyone how he's endlessly better than any Mink would ever be in SHC.
Don't worry. She never was going became a SHP for start. Do you even find her "history" with them great enough for this?
That's something we can be 100% sure didn't happen as if they had Raizou's vivre card they easily could've found his EXACT location. Not simply know that he's on Zou. Because, as you said "Vivre Cards don't lie". They continuously point in the direction of the person. They don't just stop when you reach the same island as them.
I mean...what arguments are there for Kanjuro being the traitor? Almost everything is speculation - "Kanjuro could've done this, or said this".
There are very few arguments for why it would make sense for Kanjuro to actually be the traitor. One of which can apply to Carrot in a similar fashion.
Pros for Kanjuro are that he was the 2nd scabbard introduced, yet possibly the least developed out of all of them introduced. That would suggest Oda's got something more for him planned.
But you could also argue the reverse, what was the point in Oda introducing Carrot and bringing her to WCI, giving her more panel time and attention than multiple straw hats, only for nothing important to happen to her again. It would make sense if that build up was for another purpose, such as having her join the crew, or revealing her to be the traitor. Or both.
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The main reason pointing to Kanjuro IMO is that the betrayal needs to feel like just as much of a betrayal to us, as to the characters in story. The whole plan is close to Kin emon and therefore it would make sense if the person trying to ruin the plan was also close to Kin emon to make the betrayal all the more devastating. Kin emon and Carrot have basically zero chemistry. It may seem odd of him to feel so betrayed if the traitor was someone he barely knew at all.
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I mean...what arguments are there for Kanjuro being the traitor? Almost everything is speculation - "Kanjuro could've done this, or said this".
There are very few arguments for why it would make sense for Kanjuro to actually be the traitor. One of which can apply to Carrot in a similar fashion.
Pros for Kanjuro are that he was the 2nd scabbard introduced, yet possibly the least developed out of all of them introduced. That would suggest Oda's got something more for him planned.
But you could also argue the reverse, what was the point in Oda introducing Carrot and bringing her to WCI, giving her more panel time and attention than multiple straw hats, only for nothing important to happen to her again. It would make sense if that build up was for another purpose, such as having her join the crew, or revealing her to be the traitor. Or both.
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The main reason pointing to Kanjuro IMO is that the betrayal needs to feel like just as much of a betrayal to us, as to the characters in story. The whole plan is close to Kin emon and therefore it would make sense if the person trying to ruin the plan was also close to Kin emon to make the betrayal all the more devastating. Kin emon and Carrot have basically zero chemistry. It may seem odd of him to feel so betrayed if the traitor was someone he barely knew at all.
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I have a another point which I get from a youtuber:
Why wasn´t Kanjuro on this list? Doffy probably should know that Kanjuro was free, why he don´t give him bounty stars aswell? Why Kanjuro drawing a Dragon instand of drawing a Tiger or other animal when they climp Zou? At this point only the troup of Kanjuro,Okiku and co can be the traitor because of the Zou thing with Raizao...
In otherway I like the arguments of @dizzy2341 and ask myself if Kanjuro is really the traitor, some points doesn´t would make any sense...
Why wasn´t Kanjuro on this list? Doffy probably should know that Kanjuro was free, why he don´t give him bounty stars aswell? Why Kanjuro drawing a Dragon instand of drawing a Tiger or other animal when they climp Zou? At this point only the troup of Kanjuro,Okiku and co can be the traitor because of the Zou thing with Raizao...
In otherway I like the arguments of @dizzy2341 and ask myself if Kanjuro is really the traitor, some points doesn´t would make any sense...
I have a another point which I get from a youtuber:
Why wasn´t Kanjuro on this list? Doffy probably should know that Kanjuro was free, why he don´t give him bounty stars aswell? Why Kanjuro drawing a Dragon instand of drawing a Tiger or other animal when they climp Zou? At this point only the troup of Kanjuro,Okiku and co can be the traitor because of the Zou thing with Raizao...
In otherway I like the arguments of @dizzy2341 and ask myself if Kanjuro is really the traitor, some points doesn´t would make any sense...
Why wasn´t Kanjuro on this list? Doffy probably should know that Kanjuro was free, why he don´t give him bounty stars aswell? Why Kanjuro drawing a Dragon instand of drawing a Tiger or other animal when they climp Zou? At this point only the troup of Kanjuro,Okiku and co can be the traitor because of the Zou thing with Raizao...
In otherway I like the arguments of @dizzy2341 and ask myself if Kanjuro is really the traitor, some points doesn´t would make any sense...
Momo wasnt mentioned either. If Kanjuro is not the traitor, Doffy probably didnt even know about him in the first place.
If Doffy would knew about that Scabbard-thing and Kinemon, he would give him also at least 2 stars, or even 3, because he knows how worthy he would be for Kaido or at least Orochi.
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