Questions & Mysteries Is advanced CoC really only no touching?

[Score]

Rootbeer, why do black lightning trails appear on Zoro's blade, in very similar fashion to AdCoC, despite him using AdCoA oveflow discharge of the bougyo variety? Who else has displayed this feat?

 

[Erkan12]

The actual lame way to argue is using Luffy to determine the difference b/w two attacks from Kaido lmao. That's a mother of dishonesty. How about Ragnarock vs. this random non-touching swing? That's irrelevant too?

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

My man knows all of this, but his anti-Zoro ego won't allow him to admit it coz it ruins the whole non-touching>touching agenda.

You realize why Luffy said Rayleigh's push to elephant was ''advanced'' right? It was because his hand didn't touch elephant.

Now we should assume that no touch Ad.Coc = touch Ad.CoC just because somehow Kaido didn't prefer to use no touch attacks vs Luffy from time to time? Especially when he was cheap-shotting Luffy? Lmao.

Should we assume now that Garp's touching attack vs. Chinjao = Garp's no touching attacks like Galaxy Fist?

Now don't change the subject because you know Luffy was going to die anyways due to the previous damages and G4 side effect.

Also first one is against base Luffy generic kick while the latter is against G4 Supreme Kong Gun, Luffy's ultimate attack.

He's being completely disingenuous.


Also all of Kaidou's highest end attacks are with contact. In fact Kaidou has never shown a single attack where a barrier was used when landing an attack. The only time where it looks like Kaidou used a barrier was in clashes with Luffy, emphasis on "looked like"

''All'' ? Gtfo,

Flame Bagua is Kaido's ultimate final attack, and thats No Touching Ad.CoC.

Disingenuous = thinking Kaido not preferring to use no touch techniques previously means surely touching techniques are same with no touching techniques

Disingenuous = Criticizing Big mom for not using no touch Ad.CoC attacks vs Law and Kid, then saying its all the same for Kaido anyways. LMAO.

Just like Big mom somehow didn't use that no touch Ad.CoC vs. Kid and Law, Kaido didn't use previously as well, except for the final attack, Flame Bagua.

 

[Garps tekkai]

Oda confused everyone with the 1010 reveal.

AdvCoC is not barrier haki, the no touch comes from CoA, and so does internal penetration. AdvCoC is a multiplier, it doesn't have a identifiable function of its own.

This is why people who believe CoA ended up being useless against Kaidou have no idea what they're talking about. CoA was still the most crucial element to learn, as Luffy would have no way to penetrate Kaidou's scales, even with advCoC he would mostly be doing surface level damage.

Exactly that. It's also the reason why Kaido called him out, when he said "such free wheeling combat, the use of CoC and CoA... I've never seen anything like that". It's basically saying that Luffy's G5 is not the only thing that makes his performance astonishing, it's rather the combination of G5 and CoC infused Internal destruction CoA attacks.

That's why Yamato is and Kaido himself would barely be able to hurt himself with their attacks, as Kaido's dragon scales have extremely high blunt force resistance and they lack that ID CoA.

 

[ArturCantSpeakJapanese]

Okay here is a Thread directly dedicated to @Rootbeer s claims.

First and foremost ACoC being no touching or touching is inconsistent. The only consistent thing about ACoC are black lightning trails that emit from fists or weapons.

They always appear the same. It never changes no matter what. There trails appear in no touching moments and touching moments. Here are panels that prove the touching moments:

And here are panels where we can see ACoC trails emitting from fists/weapons.

So we can safely assume that the black lightning trails 100% indicating ACoC. No touching or touching doesn’t matter for this instance. Only black lightning trails as we can see from the panels.

Yes it's always no touching.

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

If advCoC is no touching, then

1. Why does Luffy reference Color of armament when he needs to not touch Kaidou's blazing bagua?

Spoiler

2. Blazing Bagua works similarly to Zoro's attacks, Kaidou wants to touch his opponent, using blazing bagua with a barrier is counterproductive as he is only shielding his opponents from his own attack. So are you also saying Kaidou does not use advCoC in his strongest final attack?

He didn't reference armament. He referenced his training in ryuo (ryuo is the word for ALL haki in wano, not just armament), and specifically referenced NOT TOUCHING. using the techniques of ryuo and armament coating and flow with coc instead of coa is advanced coc. If two people clash with advanced coc they don't touch.

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

This means Oden or Law then got shockingly impressed by AdCoA, not AdCoC, which would be very strange writing =>

Spoiler

Spoiler

These people can't read but it's fine. It's just manga.

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

Ragnarok, Oden's Paradise techniques, Thunder Bagua, all are touching Ad.CoC techniques.

Just like no touch CoA > touch CoA,

No touch Ad.CoC > touch Ad.CoC as well.

Whats there to not understand? Lmao.

Also CoA is still the important factor in it. Ad.CoC alone can't do anthing, it adds fuel to fire which is CoA.

Also, Ad.CoC Yamato couldn't break explosive cuffs for this reason. She didn't know ad.coa.

Yamato doesn't know adcoc either. She has good base stats and raw power and that's it. If she knew acoc she could have gotten her own cuffs off with acoa

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

Dishonesty:
- Ignoring G4 side effects that Luffy mentioned before the final hit
- Ignoring all the previous accumulative damages that Kaido did to Luffy
- Ignoring Guernica by using Tekkai distracting Luffy and letting Kaido land the most clean hit to Luffy who previously said he was done if his next technique doesn't work.

What a lame way to argue, its almost like you didn't read those chapters.

Thats saying like 1 DF BB killed WB so 1 DF BB's attack power is much better than every Admiral attack WB took on that day Lmao.

People actually do scale marineford like this though rofl. Up until last chapter people said Garp was weak because he didn't have feats in marineford ignoring that he's sandbagging the entire time on purpose

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

If it's long and black and wiggling it's advCOC

If it's just a straight and black thunderbolt then it's probably not COC

Seems like you should look at that highlighted text again

 

[ShadowStyle369]

Yes because AdCoC goes against the essence of a Swordman aiming for the Pinnacle of Swordsmanship.. You're not a real Swordsman if you're not cutting.. You kind of answered it yourself.. Not touching is not cutting and that is utterly pointless as a Swordsman..

You say: You're not a real Swordsman if you're not cutting.

The Manga Says:There are swordsmen in this world who are able to not cut anything. These same swordsmen also have the ability to cut through steel.

Shanks cutting through steel but not cutting kidd in half

The Pinnacle of swordsmanship on full display

A swordsman can choose to cut someone up like zoro did king in the end or not cut him up like shanks did kidd

 

[Philosoraptor]

I didn't expect the discussion to get complicated via no touch vs w/ touch aCoC.

Logically the "no touch" should be superior "w/touch" application because w/touch does surface level damage while "no touch" does more then surface level. So @Erkan12 is correct on that aspect.

I think the confusion is coming from a.CoA application as a.CoA has 2 levels of applications.(I'm using "levels" in my own terminology to convey the point)

a.CoA level 2 (as Hyo pointed out) is the outward haki. Being able to used CoA in extension of yourself via weapons. Level 2 users have access to CoA weapons and defensive barriers.

a.CoA level 3 (as Hyo pointed out) is using that outward haki to penetrate armor. That means being able to use that outward haki as a "physical attack". Even though Hyo knows of it's application doesn't mean he CAN DO IT. As he admitted[1][2].

We need to stop passing on feats of level 3 application to anyone just because we think anyone who can do "level 2" already has the means to use "level 3". It's simply not true.

The only users we witnessed being able to use Level 3 are Luffy and Big Mom.

You don't have to be a Level 3 CoA user for CoC clash to be an non-touchable moment.

 

[Herrera95]

Thats straight up delusional and doesn’t fit into the whole picture of ACoC. This guy is something else ngl 😂

If we consider on an atomic level we are never really touching. So everything is ACoC.

 

[ShishioIsBack]

If it was, Dragon Damnation would also be no touch on the reveal chapter..

Dragon Damnation was also no touch

Post automatically merged: Apr 10, 2023

Acoc is just infusing your conquerors with your armament

• Yamato infuses it with their basic armament
• Luffy can also infuse it with barrier and internal armament
• Zoro with armament infused slashes

We might see acoc for observation too soon

I personally dont like saying acoc just because how confusing it is. Since their are diffrent levels to it just like armament haki. Mainly because armament haki is the base the conquerors is being infused with

Zoro can also make barriers so..

 

[ImmaIvanoM]

I didn't expect the discussion to get complicated via no touch vs w/ touch aCoC.

Logically the "no touch" should be superior "w/touch" application because w/touch does surface level damage while "no touch" does more then surface level. So @Erkan12 is correct on that aspect.

I think the confusion is coming from a.CoA application as a.CoA has 2 levels of applications.(I'm using "levels" in my own terminology to convey the point)

a.CoA level 2 (as Hyo pointed out) is the outward haki. Being able to used CoA in extension of yourself via weapons. Level 2 users have access to CoA weapons and defensive barriers.

a.CoA level 3 (as Hyo pointed out) is using that outward haki to penetrate armor. That means being able to use that outward haki as a "physical attack". Even though Hyo knows of it's application doesn't mean he CAN DO IT. As he admitted[1][2].

We need to stop passing on feats of level 3 application to anyone just because we think anyone who can do "level 2" already has the means to use "level 3". It's simply not true.

The only users we witnessed being able to use Level 3 are Luffy and Big Mom.

You don't have to be a Level 3 CoA user for CoC clash to be an non-touchable moment.

@Erkan12 is not right about anything

He said Ragnarok and The bagua that killed Liffy are weaker the one time Kaido ever used barriers when he split the sky with base luffy

 

[Rootbeer]

I mean Zoro does want it to touch… He’s a swordsman… he wants to cut king up

We know Zoro can do Barrier CoA since he made a barrier to block the double yonko attack

and we know Zoro can do CoC range blasts as shown with him avoiding King’s disarming move

He can do all those things, but he wants to cut king to shit so he also wants to actually make contact

Sworsdmen always want to touch meaning they always want to cut.. AdCoC is never cutting..

King flinged Zoro with his Swords on the right he made several spins in the air.. Somehow it's misinterpreted as Zoro using AdCoC no touch..

 

[Philosoraptor]

@Erkan12 is not right about anything

He said Ragnarok and The bagua that killed Liffy are weaker the one time Kaido ever used barriers when he split the sky with base luffy

No he didn't. That was @Gol D. Roger argument. He was trying to refute Erkan's logic behind no touch>touch but Erkan made it clear that he is using false pretenses to refute his claim.

I came into the scene clarifying what CoA/aCoA usages really means. Kaido can't use internal destruction so the whole comparison is moot

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

Damn, Haki Master Rootbeer really causes threads spams eh?

Wish I can do the same.

 

[Rootbeer]

Dragon Damnation was also no touch

It was Touch, with Black Lightning to Cut King.. Everything that cuts is Touch..

 

[Warchief Sanji D Goat]

If it's long and black and wiggling it's advCOC

If it's just a straight and black thunderbolt then it's probably not COC

"Long, black, wiggling"

Me:

 

[ZenZu]

You realize why Luffy said Rayleigh's push to elephant was ''advanced'' right? It was because his hand didn't touch elephant.

Now we should assume that no touch Ad.Coc = touch Ad.CoC just because somehow Kaido didn't prefer to use no touch attacks vs Luffy from time to time? Especially when he was cheap-shotting Luffy? Lmao.

Should we assume now that Garp's touching attack vs. Chinjao = Garp's no touching attacks like Galaxy Fist?

Now don't change the subject because you know Luffy was going to die anyways due to the previous damages and G4 side effect.



''All'' ? Gtfo,

Flame Bagua is Kaido's ultimate final attack, and thats No Touching Ad.CoC.

Disingenuous = thinking Kaido not preferring to use no touch techniques previously means surely touching techniques are same with no touching techniques

Disingenuous = Criticizing Big mom for not using no touch Ad.CoC attacks vs Law and Kid, then saying its all the same for Kaido anyways. LMAO.

Just like Big mom somehow didn't use that no touch Ad.CoC vs. Kid and Law, Kaido didn't use previously as well, except for the final attack, Flame Bagua.

Flame Bagua is not a no touch attack, he's trying to touch/melt Luffy, Luffy is the one who is trying to create a barrier between them.

Why would Kaidou create a barrier for Luffy to avoid touching his flames when Luffy is trying to do the exact same thing?

The one thing I'll say is Kaidou may not have internal penetration, atleast he was never shown with the barrier like effect. So the no contact > contact may have some merit only in the case that no contact signifies internal penetration (this is where it gets really confusing).

However that cannot be translated universally across the board. Some attacks lose effectiveness if there is no contact. I.e blazing bagua, dragon damnation. They require contact in order to carry out their intended effect on the target.

 

[Shiroyru]

That's cause the way it was revealed in 1010 was awful. It made it seem like a barrier was a built in function of advCoC.

From my understanding offensively atleast, AdvCoC is just the act of imbuing your "willpower, conqueror spirit magic" into your attacks. It's like giving yourself a +1 stat boost, it doesn't actually have a function past that. The action of penetrating Kaidou's scale is done by CoA internal penetration. AdvCoC gives the attack a +1 so that it penetrates further.

CoA 1: Armament hardening
CoA 2: Barrier
CoA 3: Internal Penetration

AdvCoC can act on any of those to enhance them. But on its own it doesn't have a function. This is why Yamato does surface level paper cut damage to Kaidou, when even an unrefined version of Luffy's ACoC seemed to be doing much better, she's not actually penetrating Kaidou's scales since she is unable to use internal penetration.

Oda just needs to hire Togashi to provide a good explanation for Haki and all its applications

 

[Buggy D Clown]

Flame Bagua is not a no touch attack, he's trying to touch/melt Luffy, Luffy is the one who is trying to create a barrier between them.

Why would Kaidou create a barrier for Luffy to avoid touching his flames when Luffy is trying to do the exact same thing?

The one thing I'll say is Kaidou may not have internal penetration, atleast he was never shown with the barrier like effect. So the no contact > contact may have some merit only in the case that no contact signifies internal penetration (this is where it gets really confusing).

However that cannot be translated universally across the board. Some attacks lose effectiveness if there is no contact. I.e blazing bagua, dragon damnation. They require contact in order to carry out their intended effect on the target.

It really is explained really poorly, as is all haki in general but especially this.

Luffy seems to be infusing his CoA barrier/ID with CoC so no touch while Kaido is just infusing his club so touch but then why is 2 AdCoC clashing always no touch?

 

[Albino 👑]

Flame Bagua is not a no touch attack, he's trying to touch/melt Luffy, Luffy is the one who is trying to create a barrier between them.

Why would Kaidou create a barrier for Luffy to avoid touching his flames when Luffy is trying to do the exact same thing?

The one thing I'll say is Kaidou may not have internal penetration, atleast he was never shown with the barrier like effect. So the no contact > contact may have some merit only in the case that no contact signifies internal penetration (this is where it gets really confusing).

However that cannot be translated universally across the board. Some attacks lose effectiveness if there is no contact. I.e blazing bagua, dragon damnation. They require contact in order to carry out their intended effect on the target.

Its weird but yeah if i remember correctly we never actually saw kaido do any no touch attacks outside of his clashes with luffy
We even saw big mom do it tho it was only once againt page one

 

[Kurozumi Wiwi]

All these threads wouldn't even exist if Lolda would finally decide to properly explain haki. We're in the final saga and shit still confusing, not because it is a complex power system, but because the author won't explain shit.

 

[Rootbeer]

Rootbeer, why do black lightning trails appear on Zoro's blade, in very similar fashion to AdCoC, despite him using AdCoA oveflow discharge of the bougyo variety? Who else has displayed this feat?

Not similar at all.. AdCoC Black Lightning trails appear shortly and disappear the moment of the charge.. Enma mode(KoH mode) is
stabiliized and Black Lightning is floating around, casually chilling on the swords.. A close type of Attack to Zoro's Dragon Damnation would be Roger's Kamusari.. Both are CoA based CoC technique.. So far only those 2 have portrayed the next Haki step for Swordsmen i think..

Exactly that. It's also the reason why Kaido called him out, when he said "such free wheeling combat, the use of CoC and CoA... I've never seen anything like that". It's basically saying that Luffy's G5 is not the only thing that makes his performance astonishing, it's rather the combination of G5 and CoC infused Internal destruction CoA attacks.

That's why Yamato is and Kaido himself would barely be able to hurt himself with their attacks, as Kaido's dragon scales have extremely high blunt force resistance and they lack that ID CoA.

Luffy was hurting Kaido pretty good with AdCoC when he attained it on Chapter 1010..

You say: You're not a real Swordsman if you're not cutting.

The Manga Says:There are swordsmen in this world who are able to not cut anything. These same swordsmen also have the ability to cut through steel.

Shanks cutting through steel but not cutting kidd in half

The Pinnacle of swordsmanship on full display

A swordsman can choose to cut someone up like zoro did king in the end or not cut him up like shanks did kidd

How do you know if you're truly not cutting if you're not touching?..