Character Discussion Oda's failure with Kaido
- Thread starter gz89
- Start date
Pretty simple, Oda set high expectations over a decade and didn't come close to meeting those expectations that he himself created. A few of those unmet expectations are lore wise, powerscaling, depth, fake hype, so many things. Biggest mistake Oda did with Kaido is build him up for a decade. Don't build up a character for that long just for that character to be just your average one piece villain that only took you 50 chapters to defeat in previous arcs.
I think it's that he was using Kaido too much in the story while also holding back too much about him.
As the main villain he's going to fight Luffy. This was always going to be the case and if you go back to Enies Lobby its mentioned that Luffy always seems to know who he has to fight. But how many characters are gunning for Kaido in the arc? Scabbards for what he did to Wano and Oden, Kid for what he did to Killer, and Yamato's own personal issues. There's also his own personal motivations that tie into the larger lore of the story such as Joyboy, Rocks, void century, ancient weapons, etc.
He did introduce another villain in Orochi that can take some of burden off Kaido and serve as the main antagonist for the Scabbards. And this would make sense especially since he's someone of Wano and would make things more personal. But he's essentially just fodder and left aside.
When you think about other villians like Crocodile. He doesn't have a lot about his background that is teased or anything most readers want to know about. He's kind of a cliche villian but done extremely well so you don't really care about his past. If he never made another appearance after Alabasta that would be fine as we got everything we needed from him.
Compare this with Doffy. We got a ton of stuff about not just him but of the larger lore and how he connects with other characters. We know that he will come back since not only did he mention the national treasure but Jack was sent to get him. What we got was amazing and we want more.
The fact that so much was teased about Kaido and that we honestly don't know if he will come back is bad. Like he will probably show up in at least a flashback but the fact that he could be legitimately dead and we don't know and maybe not care is a miss.
As the main villain he's going to fight Luffy. This was always going to be the case and if you go back to Enies Lobby its mentioned that Luffy always seems to know who he has to fight. But how many characters are gunning for Kaido in the arc? Scabbards for what he did to Wano and Oden, Kid for what he did to Killer, and Yamato's own personal issues. There's also his own personal motivations that tie into the larger lore of the story such as Joyboy, Rocks, void century, ancient weapons, etc.
He did introduce another villain in Orochi that can take some of burden off Kaido and serve as the main antagonist for the Scabbards. And this would make sense especially since he's someone of Wano and would make things more personal. But he's essentially just fodder and left aside.
When you think about other villians like Crocodile. He doesn't have a lot about his background that is teased or anything most readers want to know about. He's kind of a cliche villian but done extremely well so you don't really care about his past. If he never made another appearance after Alabasta that would be fine as we got everything we needed from him.
Compare this with Doffy. We got a ton of stuff about not just him but of the larger lore and how he connects with other characters. We know that he will come back since not only did he mention the national treasure but Jack was sent to get him. What we got was amazing and we want more.
The fact that so much was teased about Kaido and that we honestly don't know if he will come back is bad. Like he will probably show up in at least a flashback but the fact that he could be legitimately dead and we don't know and maybe not care is a miss.
I think Oda tried an half-measure with Kaido and it didn't work.
He didn't make him a brilliant, charismatic villain like Doflamingo or Crocodile.
Neither did he make him a relatable, human antagonist like Katakuri.
Kaido was a pure brute without intelligence or depth.
And tbh he lacked ambition too.
Seems like Oda tried to go with the pure beast route for him, which is fair, but he didn't elaborate it fully, which means an half-measure.
I mean, making the main villain of an entire saga (that started 10 years ago) rely on strenght only to catch the reader attention is already a risk, on top of that Oda tried to throw in some gags and quirks that simply didn't work with the character.
If a beast is what you want to depict just go all the way.
Kaido should've been a real beast.
A vile creature, not even a human.
Something you can't reason with.
As readers, we should've felt chills on our spines every time he was on panel, like the Minotaur did the first time he appeared:
Again, Kaido should've been a beast with almost no dialogue and almost no brain.
An invincible creature that is just that... a creature. With very little cognitive ability.
Like the Chimera.
Or Nemea's Lion.
Or Creta's Bull.
No place for remorse and shit like that, just a famelic beast striving for destruction and blood.
In my opinion, this was the right path for Kaido.
He didn't make him a brilliant, charismatic villain like Doflamingo or Crocodile.
Neither did he make him a relatable, human antagonist like Katakuri.
Kaido was a pure brute without intelligence or depth.
And tbh he lacked ambition too.
Seems like Oda tried to go with the pure beast route for him, which is fair, but he didn't elaborate it fully, which means an half-measure.
I mean, making the main villain of an entire saga (that started 10 years ago) rely on strenght only to catch the reader attention is already a risk, on top of that Oda tried to throw in some gags and quirks that simply didn't work with the character.
If a beast is what you want to depict just go all the way.
Kaido should've been a real beast.
A vile creature, not even a human.
Something you can't reason with.
As readers, we should've felt chills on our spines every time he was on panel, like the Minotaur did the first time he appeared:
An invincible creature that is just that... a creature. With very little cognitive ability.
Like the Chimera.
Or Nemea's Lion.
Or Creta's Bull.
No place for remorse and shit like that, just a famelic beast striving for destruction and blood.
In my opinion, this was the right path for Kaido.
The most interesting thing about Kaido was his death wish.
The second most interesting thing is this background where he has been part of a betrayal and how it shaped his character (and relationship with Yamato, if it‘s tied to the also unexplained ogre thing).
Oda never really bothered touching on that and gave him a pretty by the numbers flashback. Is the betrayal just getting handed over to the Marines as a kid? Surely the deathwise isn’t just some sort of weird hobby? Cause that’s all we got from Wano.
We’ll probably get the real answers at some stage when we see a Rocks flashback but by then, will anyone really care about the motivations of a villain from years back? Hard to see, especially since the finale of Luffy vs Kaido, and Wano as a whole, was so anti-climatic.
Now, not every villain needs a flashback. Plenty in OP certainly haven’t. But I think with Kaido Oda implied too much that there was some deep-seated reasons for his actions and never really gave us a good answer for that. Like, Crocodile didn‘t need a flashback.
The second most interesting thing is this background where he has been part of a betrayal and how it shaped his character (and relationship with Yamato, if it‘s tied to the also unexplained ogre thing).
Oda never really bothered touching on that and gave him a pretty by the numbers flashback. Is the betrayal just getting handed over to the Marines as a kid? Surely the deathwise isn’t just some sort of weird hobby? Cause that’s all we got from Wano.
We’ll probably get the real answers at some stage when we see a Rocks flashback but by then, will anyone really care about the motivations of a villain from years back? Hard to see, especially since the finale of Luffy vs Kaido, and Wano as a whole, was so anti-climatic.
Now, not every villain needs a flashback. Plenty in OP certainly haven’t. But I think with Kaido Oda implied too much that there was some deep-seated reasons for his actions and never really gave us a good answer for that. Like, Crocodile didn‘t need a flashback.
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Where to begin lmao
-His intro was legendary, in fact it was good enough for me to put him on equal terms with Akainu, those were some dark times
It turns how this immortality is absolute bullocks, he can simply walk to a master swordsman like Mihawk or Shanks, ask Akainu to provide him with a luxorious magma pool or simply jump in water.
-He is too goofy of a character to be taken seriously
A crybaby drunken giant lizard on suicide watch, who gets played jump rope by Luffy, like who tf wanna watch that
-He's supposed to be this menacing villain, but throughout 150 chapters he's constantly proved to be a bum and unable to seriously damage basically anyone. The only time he did something he received help from Mr. Go, and it was basically a tool to initiate the Nika awakening. @centurion probably has the list of times Kaido failed to damage literal civilians
Like Oda preferred Asura dying to Kanjuro's schemes rather than giving Kaido a badass moment
After fighting him the scabbards were up and running and everyone had his 1v1
-No need to go through Oden ptsd wank again but it makes Crydo look like shit
-In general lack of actual character, he's just this dumbass lizard with high durability and endurance whom Luffy uses as a pedastel to enter top tier realm, and he wasted a shit ton of panel time doing that.
-What's more sad is people buying into literal hearsay and on panel proof of Crydo being a total fraud, but I ain't buying that shit after what I saw and there's no changing the fact that he was weaker than Oldbeard as per canon
The best thing about Crydo's character is being excluded from the final saga with style, hyping up magma
-His intro was legendary, in fact it was good enough for me to put him on equal terms with Akainu, those were some dark times
It turns how this immortality is absolute bullocks, he can simply walk to a master swordsman like Mihawk or Shanks, ask Akainu to provide him with a luxorious magma pool or simply jump in water.
-He is too goofy of a character to be taken seriously
A crybaby drunken giant lizard on suicide watch, who gets played jump rope by Luffy, like who tf wanna watch that
-He's supposed to be this menacing villain, but throughout 150 chapters he's constantly proved to be a bum and unable to seriously damage basically anyone. The only time he did something he received help from Mr. Go, and it was basically a tool to initiate the Nika awakening. @centurion probably has the list of times Kaido failed to damage literal civilians
Like Oda preferred Asura dying to Kanjuro's schemes rather than giving Kaido a badass moment
After fighting him the scabbards were up and running and everyone had his 1v1
-No need to go through Oden ptsd wank again but it makes Crydo look like shit
-In general lack of actual character, he's just this dumbass lizard with high durability and endurance whom Luffy uses as a pedastel to enter top tier realm, and he wasted a shit ton of panel time doing that.
-What's more sad is people buying into literal hearsay and on panel proof of Crydo being a total fraud, but I ain't buying that shit after what I saw and there's no changing the fact that he was weaker than Oldbeard as per canon
The best thing about Crydo's character is being excluded from the final saga with style, hyping up magma
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From the very beginning Kaido struck me as a giant DPS check, I don't think him not having a character is such a bad thing.
Sometimes a pirate exists who is just a cunt and wants to burn everything. Kaido was fine as an antagonist, nothing special but he worked well. It was the rest of wano that was a let down.
Sometimes a pirate exists who is just a cunt and wants to burn everything. Kaido was fine as an antagonist, nothing special but he worked well. It was the rest of wano that was a let down.
1st. He didn't explore on Kaido's actual empire. We don't know his territories outside of Wano, the reach of his influence, his allies, etc. Big Mom was much more developed as a YONKO in that sense.
2nd. Avoid any goofyness. The Drunk shit wasn't for me, should've kept his demeaner from the start.
3rd. Aesthetically, him not even being the biggest dude on his crew after his introduction where he seemed like essentially an Oar's descendent or some shit... was a problem for me personally.
But yea he just wasn't developed as a Yonko, that's it. A yonko is an emperor, we come to Wano and all we get is him riding coattails of Orochi in terms of actually running the Island... Which happens to be the only Island we know he has.
Who are his allies?? Does he have any???
Big Mom in comparison is a much better character, but fails to Oda's gag habits.
2nd. Avoid any goofyness. The Drunk shit wasn't for me, should've kept his demeaner from the start.
3rd. Aesthetically, him not even being the biggest dude on his crew after his introduction where he seemed like essentially an Oar's descendent or some shit... was a problem for me personally.
But yea he just wasn't developed as a Yonko, that's it. A yonko is an emperor, we come to Wano and all we get is him riding coattails of Orochi in terms of actually running the Island... Which happens to be the only Island we know he has.
Who are his allies?? Does he have any???
Big Mom in comparison is a much better character, but fails to Oda's gag habits.
What do you think went wrong with Kaido's character and he was such a letdown ?
Im not counting pre ts because we barely knew anything about him besides his name & his skirmish with Shanks, but when he was established as the main bad guy of the Yonko saga back in PH (10y ago) i believe most of us had high expectations for him.
Even as the main antagonist in his own arc he couldnt even make it higher than top50 characters.
I would like to hear your opinions about Oda's mistakes regarding his character, just try to not turn this into a powerlevel thread it has nothing to do with how strong he was.
@SakazOuki @Monkey D Theories @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier @milluki @MonsterZoro @MarineHQ @Tejas @L55 @Roronoa-sama @Blazing Lion @BOCCHI
Im not counting pre ts because we barely knew anything about him besides his name & his skirmish with Shanks, but when he was established as the main bad guy of the Yonko saga back in PH (10y ago) i believe most of us had high expectations for him.
Even as the main antagonist in his own arc he couldnt even make it higher than top50 characters.
I would like to hear your opinions about Oda's mistakes regarding his character, just try to not turn this into a powerlevel thread it has nothing to do with how strong he was.
@SakazOuki @Monkey D Theories @Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier @milluki @MonsterZoro @MarineHQ @Tejas @L55 @Roronoa-sama @Blazing Lion @BOCCHI
