Controversial Enma is "not the king of hell"
- Thread starter Artem
- Start date
Far margin is an exaggeration. The only canon comparison we have is RS being unscathed from King's diving attack, and Exoskeleton resisting/immune to a Seraphim's Fishman Karate punch. Both are still relative to each other, same Commander tier scaling.
1. Powerups means any upgrades a character have that they previously don't have.
- First Oda made Sanji able to reform his body, something he previously can't do.
- Then Oda made Sanji showcase his defense, such as resist a bullet, in WCI final stretch Chopper notice that Sanji got shot.
- Oda also goes out of his way explaining that Sanji now has "the power of invisibility"
These three, regen defense invisibility are something pre-Raid Sanji didn't have.
2. Like I said previously, Nika DF-Enma-RS are the trigger that brings out Awakening-CoC-Exoskeleton.
IJ requires Exoskeleton's defense to use.
KOH requires CoC to use.
These are the proper equivalence.
Naming IJ as Powerups actually means acknowledging Exoskeleton, because Ifrit fire can't be ignited without the help of Exo's defense.
1. Powerups means any upgrades a character have that they previously don't have.
- First Oda made Sanji able to reform his body, something he previously can't do.
- Then Oda made Sanji showcase his defense, such as resist a bullet, in WCI final stretch Chopper notice that Sanji got shot.
- Oda also goes out of his way explaining that Sanji now has "the power of invisibility"
These three, regen defense invisibility are something pre-Raid Sanji didn't have.
2. Like I said previously, Nika DF-Enma-RS are the trigger that brings out Awakening-CoC-Exoskeleton.
IJ requires Exoskeleton's defense to use.
KOH requires CoC to use.
These are the proper equivalence.
Naming IJ as Powerups actually means acknowledging Exoskeleton, because Ifrit fire can't be ignited without the help of Exo's defense.
Powerups doesn't only cover/about offensive method.
Nika's strength bonus + reality warping bonus, and Exoskeleton's regen + defense is also powerups.
Powerups also not only about upgrades to existing skills.
It can also be from having no skill to gaining new skill, such as Sanji having no flaming legs pre-EL to flaming legs post-EL
Nika's strength bonus + reality warping bonus, and Exoskeleton's regen + defense is also powerups.
Powerups also not only about upgrades to existing skills.
It can also be from having no skill to gaining new skill, such as Sanji having no flaming legs pre-EL to flaming legs post-EL
It’s not an exaggeration, the manga spells it out when they were introduced. The big mom pirates weren’t creating counter measures for raid suits, they had to develop counter measures for the exoskeleton. The Exo was always portrayed much more durable than a raid suit. Especially since Sanji was able to smash the raid suit with his foot no problem.
1. The raid suit was never a power up, hell it was never even treated as one. It was always just a tool to be discarded.
2. Exoskeleton was sanjis first main power up in the new world. Just like Enma was to Zoro. These two power ups were then a catalyst to allow the two to develop their fighting styles into much more powerful versions KOH 3 sword style and Ifrit Jambe
And yeah Exo was a power up that allowed Sanji to create and control his main one. But the way you’re framing Raid Suit as a power up when it was never treated as such is where you’re wrong.
Sanji has two power ups:
Exoskeleton and IJ
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Again not saying Exo isn’t a power up, it’s just less of one than IJ is. As Exo merely enhanced Sanji, IJ completely leveled up his fighting style.
It’s like CoC coating for Luffy wasn’t as much of a power up as Awakening was.
1. The raid suit was never a power up, hell it was never even treated as one. It was always just a tool to be discarded.
2. Exoskeleton was sanjis first main power up in the new world. Just like Enma was to Zoro. These two power ups were then a catalyst to allow the two to develop their fighting styles into much more powerful versions KOH 3 sword style and Ifrit Jambe
And yeah Exo was a power up that allowed Sanji to create and control his main one. But the way you’re framing Raid Suit as a power up when it was never treated as such is where you’re wrong.
Sanji has two power ups:
Exoskeleton and IJ
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Again not saying Exo isn’t a power up, it’s just less of one than IJ is. As Exo merely enhanced Sanji, IJ completely leveled up his fighting style.
It’s like CoC coating for Luffy wasn’t as much of a power up as Awakening was.
I see. Maybe this is the difference in how we see WCI & Wano :
- BMP creating countermeasure for Exo because they will attack the Vinsmokes during the wedding, when they didn't wear the RS. They planned the attack, and only attack when they're RS-less. That's why they didn't need to develop countermeasure for it.
- For me, RS tanking King's attack, which Luffy comment as nasty, is relative to Sanji's Exo tanking S-Shark. Not much difference until Oda shows more.
- Sanji destroyed the RS because it is in canister form & the narrative required it to be destroyed.
- Just like the other guy said, any increase in abilities count as PU. Sanji's leg cracked against Vergo (I know it's the explosion that actually damage him). A few weeks later, Sanji's body receive zero damage at all from an Ancient Zoan (near Vergo level).
This increase for having mediocre defense to top tier defense is already a PU to me.
This is why Sanji didn't "get" a PU in WCI, Oda showcase it in Page One's fight. It acts as substitute.
- You may think that RS will always meant to be discarded, but I think most readers didn't think so. Because he receives & uses RS, and in the same timeframe, Zoro receives & uses Enma. It's a normal thinking that both receives the same treatment. Zoro will use Enma, Sanji will use RS. Reasonable train of thought.
- I have 2 different context for the last point, RS as Powerup.
First, just like the other guy said & imply, any new abilities a character gain is considered a powerup. If you don't agree with this, it's fine, but at least you know why we think so.
PreWano Sanji :
- Can't go invisible
- Doesn't have top tier defense
Raid Suit Sanji can do/have both. It's increase in ability(ies), thus I consider RS as Sanji's Powerup. Because RS Sanji is better than No-RS Sanji.
Secondly, my initial discussion about this (RS) is actually unrelated/doesn't care whether you consider it as Sanji's Powerup or not.
RS Sanji is stronger than WCI Sanji.
Exo Sanji is also stronger than WCI Sanji, or RS Sanji.
So it is canon that RS+Exo Sanji is stronger than any Sanji.
So, there is a possibility that Exo + RS Sanji exists. These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, even all Vinsmokes are literally Exo people wearing Raid Suit.
With both, Sanji will be much stronger, than just Exo Sanji.
In the end, it's not about what is Sanji's Wano PU, but about the existence of Exo Sanji wearing RS.
- BMP creating countermeasure for Exo because they will attack the Vinsmokes during the wedding, when they didn't wear the RS. They planned the attack, and only attack when they're RS-less. That's why they didn't need to develop countermeasure for it.
- For me, RS tanking King's attack, which Luffy comment as nasty, is relative to Sanji's Exo tanking S-Shark. Not much difference until Oda shows more.
- Sanji destroyed the RS because it is in canister form & the narrative required it to be destroyed.
- Just like the other guy said, any increase in abilities count as PU. Sanji's leg cracked against Vergo (I know it's the explosion that actually damage him). A few weeks later, Sanji's body receive zero damage at all from an Ancient Zoan (near Vergo level).
This increase for having mediocre defense to top tier defense is already a PU to me.
This is why Sanji didn't "get" a PU in WCI, Oda showcase it in Page One's fight. It acts as substitute.
- You may think that RS will always meant to be discarded, but I think most readers didn't think so. Because he receives & uses RS, and in the same timeframe, Zoro receives & uses Enma. It's a normal thinking that both receives the same treatment. Zoro will use Enma, Sanji will use RS. Reasonable train of thought.
- I have 2 different context for the last point, RS as Powerup.
First, just like the other guy said & imply, any new abilities a character gain is considered a powerup. If you don't agree with this, it's fine, but at least you know why we think so.
PreWano Sanji :
- Can't go invisible
- Doesn't have top tier defense
Raid Suit Sanji can do/have both. It's increase in ability(ies), thus I consider RS as Sanji's Powerup. Because RS Sanji is better than No-RS Sanji.
Secondly, my initial discussion about this (RS) is actually unrelated/doesn't care whether you consider it as Sanji's Powerup or not.
RS Sanji is stronger than WCI Sanji.
Exo Sanji is also stronger than WCI Sanji, or RS Sanji.
So it is canon that RS+Exo Sanji is stronger than any Sanji.
So, there is a possibility that Exo + RS Sanji exists. These two things aren't mutually exclusive. Hell, even all Vinsmokes are literally Exo people wearing Raid Suit.
With both, Sanji will be much stronger, than just Exo Sanji.
In the end, it's not about what is Sanji's Wano PU, but about the existence of Exo Sanji wearing RS.
The constant portrayal of the exoskeleton puts its durability well above the raid suit as the big shift in the fight on Cacao island was when the Candy jacket guns arrived.
Sanji destroyed the raid suit because he was capable of doing so, there’s really no mention of the canister being a weakness.
Raid Suit Sanji doesn’t exist and never was going to exist. This is just something the fanbase created. Hell, there’s a reason Soba Mask had his own Vivre card too. His kit is completely different and couldn’t even use DJ.
WCI Sanji > Raid Suit Sanji because Diable Jambe is a stronger boost than the Raid Suit is.
Sanji destroyed the raid suit because he was capable of doing so, there’s really no mention of the canister being a weakness.
Raid Suit Sanji doesn’t exist and never was going to exist. This is just something the fanbase created. Hell, there’s a reason Soba Mask had his own Vivre card too. His kit is completely different and couldn’t even use DJ.
WCI Sanji > Raid Suit Sanji because Diable Jambe is a stronger boost than the Raid Suit is.
I don't rank IJ that prominently. At the very most, I put it as near equal or similar value to the so called Exo.
This is because Exoskeleton increase Sanji's :
- base attack (from bonus strength part of Exo)
- base speed (from weight part of Exo)
- base defense (from iron skin part of Exo)
- base regen (from healing factor of Exo)
- gain invisibility (via superspeed)
Whereas Ifrit mode only increase :
- attack (from hotter flame)
- speed (from fire legs)
Sanji with only Exoskeleton > Sanji with only Ifrit
Sanji with Exoskeleton can win high tiers sooner or later, because DJ is still acceptable attack power against them (Queen's accumulated damage as said by Sanji).
However Sanji with Ifrit may easily injure high tiers, but his body won't last long against them (Sanji's exhausted from fighting King Queen).
This is why the value of Exoskeleton is comparable or more than Ifrit.
This is because Exoskeleton increase Sanji's :
- base attack (from bonus strength part of Exo)
- base speed (from weight part of Exo)
- base defense (from iron skin part of Exo)
- base regen (from healing factor of Exo)
- gain invisibility (via superspeed)
Whereas Ifrit mode only increase :
- attack (from hotter flame)
- speed (from fire legs)
Sanji with only Exoskeleton > Sanji with only Ifrit
Sanji with Exoskeleton can win high tiers sooner or later, because DJ is still acceptable attack power against them (Queen's accumulated damage as said by Sanji).
However Sanji with Ifrit may easily injure high tiers, but his body won't last long against them (Sanji's exhausted from fighting King Queen).
This is why the value of Exoskeleton is comparable or more than Ifrit.
King vs RS and Shark vs Exoskeleton are also a canon portrayal. If we consider those scenes equal, even Exoskeleton looks worse in comparison because of Sanji's higher natural defense before Exoskeleton buff.
No mention of it, but you can infer with how Oda draws it. RS took zero damage, nothing at all, from King's diving attack. Later on, the canister explodes with only half-a-meter leg swing of Sanji.
If you think Sanji's short swing is much stronger (because it explodes) than King's full-speed dive attack, then you're hyping Sanji too much.
Soba Mask IS a Raid Suit Sanji. It's Germa equivalent of Sanji.
1. There is no mention it can't use DJ. Sanji will not use DJ because the reason he wore the RS is to conceal his identity. Why bother impersonating if he is gonna use DJ anyway.
2. Soba Mask has different Vivre Card entry because it is a separate identity. He becomes Soba Mask to differentiate himself from Sanji, thus a new VC entry.
3. His kit is not completely different because SM & Sanji are still agility-based and leg-based. If SM uses Knives and less agile, we can consider them having "different kit".
4. RS Sanji is never impossible in case Sanji didn't finish his character development during Queen fight. If at that time, Sanji is still unsure about his character, he will not destroy RS and will use it.
WCI & Dressrosa Sanji are the same. Doffy (not defense specialist) can tank a DJ kick staying still. A RS kick sent a zoan form dinosaur (a defense specialist) a few blocks away. Both aren't much different.
Still, my original point isn't about all these. It's that Oda didn't let Exo+RS Sanji exists.
No mention of it, but you can infer with how Oda draws it. RS took zero damage, nothing at all, from King's diving attack. Later on, the canister explodes with only half-a-meter leg swing of Sanji.
If you think Sanji's short swing is much stronger (because it explodes) than King's full-speed dive attack, then you're hyping Sanji too much.
Soba Mask IS a Raid Suit Sanji. It's Germa equivalent of Sanji.
1. There is no mention it can't use DJ. Sanji will not use DJ because the reason he wore the RS is to conceal his identity. Why bother impersonating if he is gonna use DJ anyway.
2. Soba Mask has different Vivre Card entry because it is a separate identity. He becomes Soba Mask to differentiate himself from Sanji, thus a new VC entry.
3. His kit is not completely different because SM & Sanji are still agility-based and leg-based. If SM uses Knives and less agile, we can consider them having "different kit".
4. RS Sanji is never impossible in case Sanji didn't finish his character development during Queen fight. If at that time, Sanji is still unsure about his character, he will not destroy RS and will use it.
WCI & Dressrosa Sanji are the same. Doffy (not defense specialist) can tank a DJ kick staying still. A RS kick sent a zoan form dinosaur (a defense specialist) a few blocks away. Both aren't much different.
Still, my original point isn't about all these. It's that Oda didn't let Exo+RS Sanji exists.
Raid Suit is Fire proof, it can’t catch fire as such Sanji can’t use DJ with it. Soba Mask is just base Sanji with invisibility and slightly higher durability.
1. How does a fireproof suit catch fire?
2. Sanjis main weapon is Diable Jambe. Soba mask doesn’t allow Sanji to use that weapon. It’s like saying give Zoro a spear and it’s the same as giving him a sword.
3. Raid Suit Sanji can’t use DJ or IJ so yeah it can’t exist because it would involve Sanji sacrificing his greatest weapon.
And you think Sanji, a kick specialist can’t stomp and break the raid suit? He already showed the ability to smash raid suits and exoskeletons without DJ back in Wci.
1. How does a fireproof suit catch fire?
2. Sanjis main weapon is Diable Jambe. Soba mask doesn’t allow Sanji to use that weapon. It’s like saying give Zoro a spear and it’s the same as giving him a sword.
3. Raid Suit Sanji can’t use DJ or IJ so yeah it can’t exist because it would involve Sanji sacrificing his greatest weapon.
And you think Sanji, a kick specialist can’t stomp and break the raid suit? He already showed the ability to smash raid suits and exoskeletons without DJ back in Wci.