Powers & Abilities Gear 5 IS a better power-up than Super Saiyan (not a joke/bait thread)

Gear 2 involved him using his rubber body to artificially increase his blood flow and oxygen intake to artifically dope his body through pumping the blood faster. How the fuck does that make any sense, even in One Piece?
More control over his rubber body allows him to move arteries, veins and his heart muscles more freely. It's very obvious and not implausible at all.
Gear 3 is literally the dude turning his body parts into giant balloons. WTF, he didn't eat the balloon fruit, this is not how rubber limbs would work.
Balloons are made from rubber and he turned his body into a balloon way before.
Same thing with Gear 4 to an extreme extent, as he's inflating his muscles;
Pumping in compressed air for additional force and rapid change of movement is plausible in OP. Having an air tight, higly flexible membrane like, you know, RUBBER, can do that.


If your entire point relies on intellectual dishonesty THIS much then it's a bad point, sorry mate. "What do balloons have to do with rubber xd?" might be one of the worst takes I've read on here so far
 
I honestly never thought a shonen power up would do more for me than Super Saiyan. All the other transformations after (Ascended Saiyan, Super Saiyan 3, etc) didn't do much for me (I thought 3 was stupid as hell due to the hair). 4 in GT was okay, but GT was... ugh, and sadly, I've never got into Super because at this point I'm just waiting for the series to end to catch up to it. So, no Ultra Instinct or God stuff here, just the original DRAGON BALL Z, HUNT THE DRAGON, HUNT THE DRAGON, DRAGONBAAAAAALL ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ (guitar riffs intensify)

Goku had been serious at times in fights, but Super Saiyan was the first time we saw his full warrior spirit come out, the raging great ape inside. While this was lost later on, what made the original Super Saiyan transformation startling was Goku was PISSED. Even at his worst, Goku had always had some level of happines and joy in his fights.

Freiza was the first time he actually got PISSED, to the point he was willing to snap and bark at Gohan, surprising the hell out of Gohan, who had NEVER seen his father act like that. Super Saiyan was the Saiyan bloodlust and battle instinct in Goku perfectly mixing with his human kindness and desire to protect his friends and family.



Afterwards, the series has never really known what to do with his character; Goku already peaked years ago, IMO. Gohan SHOULD HAVE become the new protagonist after the Cell Saga, but instead, Super Saiyan became a joke for a while, which is my biggest issue with it. Its original portayal was AMAZING, but, a lot of the Super Saiyan stuff has been just... bad since. Uninspired. Rather than be an ultimate form where Goku acts like a badass, it just became another convenient stepping stone transformation.

This is what separates Super Saiyan from Gear 5. Gear 5 IS LUFFY'S PEAK. Gear 5 isn't some transformation sequence that's going to be discarded for a new one in a few volumes. Gear 5 is Luffy's ultimate form, all of his training, kindness, and dreams coming together.


Gear 5 has years of development and foreshadowing

If you never read Skypiea, you might be stupid enough to act like Gear 5 was a retcon. Nope; Oda has been planning this crap for a LOOOOOONG time, with panels in Skypiea directly being referenced in the first few Gear 5 panels; you even have Conis in Skypiea praying to the real god to save them from Enel. Who saves them? The Sun God, Nika. Luffy being a true hero/deity who defeats false deities was shown as far back as Skypiea, and then again in Sabaody with the Charlos punch, then again in Dressrosa with Doffy being the Heavenly Demon.



Luffy being an immortal figure (within the context of reaching the end of the story, he could die at the end) who defeats false gods is a canon plot point.

Furthermore, Luffy's Fruit NEVER made any sense to begin with, because the closer he grew to Awakening, the less his Fruit made sense. Gear 2 involved him using his rubber body to artificially increase his blood flow and oxygen intake to artifically dope his body through pumping the blood faster. How the fuck does that make any sense, even in One Piece? Gear 3 is literally the dude turning his body parts into giant balloons. WTF, he didn't eat the balloon fruit, this is not how rubber limbs would work. Same thing with Gear 4 to an extreme extent, as he's inflating his muscles; Kaido even comments on Snake Man's redirect attacks, saying they make NO SENSE in the context of Luffy having a Rubber Fruit.

Even amonst other Devil Fruit users, people have always reacted to Luffy's Fruit with a level of disbelief and at times terror. He's always been our giggling rubber psychopath.

Through Wano Act 3, we hear Hyrogoro refer to Luffy as a Wisdom God while in Gear 4, and also see the discussions with Who's Who and Mr. Go hyping up the potential of Joy Boy and Luffy's Fruit.



This is how you do a stealth reveal: connect a bunch of powerful characters (Shanks and Joy Boy) to the narrative; tease it right during a huge fight; have the protagonist lose in a tragic way; reveal their power just when things are looking grim, and have another character hype the hell out of them (bonus points if you foreshadowed this years ago like Oda did with Skypiea). Super Saiyan checks a lot of these boxes, too.

But, Luffy had to seriously bust his ass off to reach Gear 5. He did explicit training for it, that actually led to his Haki and body reaching levels that could keep up with his Awakening. Goku did gravity and martial arts training, but none of it really connected to him going Super Saiyan (maybe Kaioken a little?).

The lore behind Super Saiyans was always murky at best, and the actual build up to Goku transforming, while cool, didn't have as much emotional build up to it. There aren't fucking Dargon Balls in One Piece, if Nami dies, chick is dead.

Krillin died, yeah, but... we all knew that fucker was coming back again. Death in One Piece is death, it just rarely happens and Oda has a fakeout death fetish.



Really wish Kaido had offed another Scabbard or something at least when he came down from the roof after Luffy's "death".

As cool as Super Saiyan was, it was another "Shonen Protagonist gets really angry and shows their true power that's been teased for a while" moment. That's happened before PLENTY it's just Super Saiyan did it best at its time. Gear 5 is much more unique and unexpected.


Gear 5 Perfectly Fits Luffy as a Character and the Series' Narrative

Super Saiyan ruined Dragon Ball on some level. During the rest of Z post Namek, any non-Android or Saiyan character was beyond useless, which as far as I know, is still the case in Super. Dragon Ball Z was already on the path the abandoning any non-Saiyan's as serious fighters as early as the Yamcha death pose, but, Super Saiyan and its subsequent forms guaranteed non-Saiyans would also be hot doggy doo doo.



In the One Piece universe, some drunk homeless looking dude with one arm that lets people pick on him in bar fights could fuck Luffy up with no Devil Fruit whatsoever. Gear 5 did nothing to break One Piece's narrative, powerscaling, or characters (so far). It's the peak of them.

Luffy has always been a goofy fighter who uses weird ass techniques in battle, it's one of the reasons his enemies don't know what to do with him at times. Luffy has always gone around liberating people and making allies wherever he went. Luffy has always saved people when they were at their lowest with his smile and courage. Gear 5 is the natural evolution of his character and traits.

Gear 5 is the peak of One Piece, a laughing, goofy goober beating up the strongest people in the world in the most ridiculous ways possible, just because he loves his friends and wants to have a big party with them.

All of our power-scaling and shitfuck agenda are a product of our addiction to spoilers, delusions, and at times (I bet on ZKK after Wano ended) outright mental illness. Oda doesn't give a fuck about that shit, to him, Gear 5 is peak Luffy.

Super Saiyan, like most power up, involved the main character screaming and growing incredibly strong all at once. While the presentation was FANTASTIC the basic elements had all been done before.

Gear 5 subverts shonen tropes completely, by having a quiet, then booming drum beat sound. Rather than scream or rage, as his heartbeat dances with liberation and joy, the corner of Luffy's lips creep up his cheeks until he's grinning like a madman.



Rather than rage, he gets up, starts dancing and bouncing, then, with a maniac smile, smashes down into Onigashima, pulls Kaido back up, and gives him the Toon Force.

This is Luffy's ULTIMATE REJECTION OF KAIDO. Kaido, who thinks a party is getting drunk, then dropping his giant house on a bunch of other people's smaller houses to kill them, starts getting his ass handed to him by some giggling monster who just wants to dance to his own heartbeat.

Luffy just spits on all of Kaido's drunken rage, remorse, sorrow, hatred, whining, by laughing in his face and smirking... through the fight, Kaido is nothing like Frieza. He isn't a powerful, unstoppable force. He has trauma. He's broken. He's suicidal. He lets people get easy attacks in because he wants to die, gets pissed when they can't kill him, then is a hypocrite, dodges strong strikes, and gets pissed at Luffy when Luffys calls him out for it.

Freiza vs Goku was a 1v1 where a known unstoppable force is playing with its food, like a cat with a mouse, but Goku keeps growing, until Frieza finally breaks him emotionally, and pushes him past his known limits.

Kaido vs Luffy is a suicidal drunk old man hoping some young guy full of hops and dreams will become Joy Boy and will finally kill him.

That is why Kaido was SO PISSED when Mr. Go fucked over Luffy. Kaido WANTED TO BE LIBERATED more than anyone. If you look at his faces before Luffy's death, Kaido is having the time of his life. He's truly smiling, no longer out of rage or hatred, but pure enjoyment FOR LUFFY (Kaido looking kinda hot here, too, not going to lie).



THAT IS WHAT MAKES GEAR 5 SO POWERFUL. As a straight fight, Goku vs Frieza is superior to Luffy vs Kaido, to me. BUT the emotional stakes in Luffy vs Kaido hits so much harder.

Gear 5 being a powerup the protagonist gets to liberate his suicidial arch-enemy is just... such amazing, witty writing.

Kaido was the one MOST LIBERATED by Joy Boy. Luffy actually made that old, genocidal bastard smile again.

Frieza is just an evil bastard who is REALLY good and REALLY entertaining at being an evil bastard. As much as I love Dragon Ball Z, it's nowhere near as deep as One Piece when it comes to plot, characters, and motivations.

I can definitely agree Goku vs Frieza is a more satisfying fight overall, BUT, Gear 5 is a greater power-up than Super Saiyan to me, because it is much more important to the plot and connected to Luffy as an overall character.

Super Saiyan may be the more iconic moment (definitely as of now) but Gear 5 is a superior power-up, and truly shows what One Piece is; a story about how dreams, will, friendship, and laughter can change the world.

After over a 1,000 chapters, 1,000 episodes, seeing Luffy reach his peak, and still be himself... seeing his peak being him laughing his ass off while using a giant dragon as a jump rope... that's peak creativity to me. Gear 5 was something no one expected, and having the cartoon protagonist literally become a cartoon protagonist is such a zany idea few people have the balls or ovaries to try.

I fucking hope Oda doesn't make Gear 6 or some dumb shit, having a final form of Gear 5 or different forms like Gear 4 is fine, but NO FUCKING RANDOM GIANT HAIR GROWTH, ODA, DO NOT GIVE LUFFY HAIR LONGER THAN THE LENGTH OF HIS BODY, FUCK SUPER SAIYAN 3.

Gear 5 is PERFECT for this series, and is my favorite power up of all time based on how it connects to the character, story, and world.

WE'RE TOON PIECE NOW, BABY

Im sorry but Super Saiyan is simply too iconic, And they hype increased with every form
Like quite literally none of the forms missed....... And each of them has a top tier fight to go along with it, except maybe Super Saiyan 3 . But even then that's arguably the best super saiyan transformation.

 
Ssj is just iconic, countless people have already described it better than me while G5 is.. bullshit is probably the first word which come to mind, Oda tried too hard. The Kaido vs Luffy fight was spanning for a ridiculous amount of chapters and I was already pretty pissed, bored is a better term (last time OP pissed me was WCI, after that I stopped to care), to see Luffy unlock stuff mid fight, still be knocked out multiple times and "miraculously" come back each time because the fight could not simply be a longer Luffy vs Kata then when we had the "Luffy is dead" moment I immeditaley felt that Oda was about to bring the bullshit to the next level and he didn't disappoint me.

Lowest point of Wano, and everybody knows how bad Wano already is. Luckily now Oda is doing this focus on people outside the SHs, be it Sabo and Im or Garp at Hacinosu, which made the manga way more interesting than it has been in years.
 
Those who claim that Gear5 is a Masterclass in Storytelling are seemingly unable to explain how is possible that the Gorosei didn’t take action earlier, knowing that an East Blue boy had the legendary fruit of JoyBoy. No amount of mental Gym will make up for the Author’s Shortcomings in providing a satisfactory explanation for that, and it’s emblematic of how this whole plot line is an ill designed, last minute plot Twist.
 
The only problem I have with G5 is its design. I'm not that fond of it and it certainly does not look intimidating. SS is simple and awe-inspiring at the same time. It is also true the SS form just makes saiyan stronger without granting them further abilities. I can't really pick one over the other. How Luffy fights while in G5 is much funnier tho.
Kaioken was the real deal :steef:
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Those who claim that Gear5 is a Masterclass in Storytelling are seemingly unable to explain how is possible that the Gorosei didn’t take action earlier, knowing that an East Blue boy had the legendary fruit of JoyBoy. No amount of mental Gym will make up for the Author’s Shortcomings in providing a satisfactory explanation for that, and it’s emblematic of how this whole plot line is an ill designed, last minute plot Twist.
I don't understand how CLLLoda couldn't come up with a decent explanation. If Nika's non-awakened powers depended on the personality of the user everything would have been so simple to explain. The Gorosei wouldn't have known Luffy ate that fruit until it was too late. Literally any DF user could've been Nika :kayneshrug:

How did the fruit manage to hide from the government if it has always looked like the Gom Gom fruit? :whitepress:
 
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The only problem I have with G5 is its design. I'm not that fond of it and it certainly does not look intimidating. SS is simple and awe-inspiring at the same time. It is also true the SS form just makes saiyan stronger without granting them further abilities. I can't really pick one over the other. How Luffy fights while in G5 is much funnier tho.
Kaioken was the real deal :steef:
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I don't understand how CLLLoda couldn't come up with a decent explanation. If Nika's non-awakened powers depended on the personality of the user everything would have been so simple to explain. The Gorosei wouldn't have known Luffy ate that fruit until it was too late. Literally any DF user could've been Nika :kayneshrug:

How did the fruit manage to hide from the government if it has always looked like the Gom Gom fruit? :whitepress:
Honestly, I think that he didn’t even care.
The reason for this being that One Piece has reached such a stage where there is a hard core of Fanboys that will worship Oda regardless of what he does, praising every questionable choice of his and that will try to justify even the most blatant plot-holes. I think that Oda is well aware of this and he just didn’t feel like he needed to come up with any particular explanation whatsoever as he thought most people would’ve acclaimed him anyway…

One Piece fanbase is just not very critical
(kinda understandable, considering that is meant for Teenagers).
 
I could imagine why you wouldn’t like Drizzt who was based when you think the Nika stuff is perfect lol.
Yeah a ridiculous power that is only limited by his own imagination as described, if that isn’t OP then I don’t know what is lol. It’s arguably more valuable than the Ope Ope No Mi and has the potential to be the most overpowering fruit once Luffy or Oda realizes what else can be done with it.

He worked for what exactly? Luffy didn’t do anything lmao it took an apparent death and an apparent revival on panel to make him awaken from the dead via a retcon, how is that a storytelling master class? Like Luffy literally went from a paramecia to a fruit that probably deserves a classification of its own because of how abstract it is with the only known limit is the user’s own imagination. Yet y’all think Luffy worked for something like that and also deserves it? Are we reading the same manga?
Apparently we're not reading the same manga if you think awakening happened just because he died.

Like at any given moment since he ate it, Luffy could have died, and then just "Boom" instance perfect synchronization with his Devil Fruit, and awakening, lmao...

Awakening is the highest level of Devil Fruit Mastery. It happened cause Luffy worked for it.

The death was just the catalyst.
 
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Apparently we're not reading the same manga if you think awakening happened just because he died.

Like at any given moment since he ate it, Luffy could have died, and then just "Boom" instance perfect synchronization with his Devil Fruit, and awakening, lmao...

Awakening is the highest level of Devil Fruit Mastery. It happened cause Luffy worked for it.

The death was just the catalyst.
How can you explain the fact that Gorosey thought about awakening the fruit only at the time of Wano Arc? Is it related to Shanks? Or did they just not know that Luffy had a gomu gomu and thought he was lost? Or could they not have sent someone very strong in search of it, because then it would have aroused suspicion? Although, given the events of Enies Lobby, this would be normal
 
Didn't read. It's not based purely off being a retcon. I also hate when characters are rewarded powerups for literally dying (looking at you Luffy/Yusuke) Reminds me of fighting games when I kick my opponent's ass and they are rewarded with meter. :kriwhat:

Also, the narrative that it fits Luffy so perfectly is also nonsense. Vegepunk practically confirmed awakened zoans are controlled by their fruits. Doesn't really fit a freedom seeker. Moreover, he hates being called a hero but is a warrior of liberation? Ok I guess :gokulaugh:
 
When you said didn't read I understand that you can't read. How was Luffy 'controlled' when he practically uttered his name against Kaidou in G5 form?


So now warriors are heroes? :suresure:
Then why is he laughing all the time you Luffy stan ?:seriously:Was he laughing like that prior to G5? Vegapunk > Luffy stans on crappy forums

Liberating people and being a hero goes hand and hand. "I'm not a hero" - Luffy. Yet he constantly performs heroic acts.

Keep coping.:gokulaugh:
 
Then why is he laughing all the time you Luffy stan ?:seriously:Was he laughing like that prior to G5? Vegapunk > Luffy stans on crappy forums

Liberating people and being a hero goes hand and hand. "I'm not a hero" - Luffy. Yet he constantly performs heroic acts.

Keep coping.:gokulaugh:
Lol, you don't even know how the 'controlled' user looks. For reference, look at Hollow Ichigo in Bleach or Nine tails fox Naruto. Yeah, he was laughing (go 'read' chapters of Luffy vs kaidou prior to G5), and that was why I said you can't read. When you can talk and use haki or DF as you wish, it is not 'control' dumbass. Maybe your 'retardedness' took 'control' over you and hence you can't read or understand. Oh, why didn't the same Vegapunk say about how Luffy was 'controlled' by his DF? And Lucci, Kaku was also awakened their Zoans. Do they look 'controlled'?

First, learn to read and then come to discuss in a 'crappy' forum. Throwing buzzwords like 'copium' won't make your argument sound Mr. Fake.

He is not 'liberating' people, he is just helping his friends and no hero releases prisoners of impel down or team up with criminals. He is not on a mission to save people. Saving people was just a 'consequence' of his action.
 
S

Sasaki Kojirō

Have you watched/read saint seiya lost canvas?
This here is Saint Seiya, which I used to watch as a child. I also remember having watched a really good movie.



Watching most of the Saint Seiya movies, come to think of it.
I also have memories of having watched around 2017 Saint Seiya, in which the main character was no longer Seiya but another boy who looked like him, wearing the Pegasus armor.

It was something related to OMEGA.
 
This here is Saint Seiya, which I used to watch as a child. I also remember having watched a really good movie.



Watching most of the Saint Seiya movies, come to think of it.
I also have memories of having watched around 2017 Saint Seiya, in which the main character was no longer Seiya but another boy who looked like him, wearing the Pegasus armor.

It was something related to OMEGA.
Yes. Lost canvas is spin off of the above. It's really good. Read it or watch it if you have time for it.
 

ConquistadoR

The Rogue Prince
Apparently we're not reading the same manga if you think awakening happened just because he died.

Like at any given moment since he ate it, Luffy could have died, and then just "Boom" instance perfect synchronization with his Devil Fruit, and awakening, lmao...

Awakening is the highest level of Devil Fruit Mastery. It happened cause Luffy worked for it.

The death was just the catalyst.
Kaidou said it best.



Mind & Body = where Mind is "Haki" & Body is "DF ability"

Luffy was bound to Awaken at some point. The bad part for me is that it was foretold long ago & the Roger Pirates knew it.
It's probably why Shanks stole this Fruit from the Govt and Shanks knew that Luffy was Joyboy or ate the "Joyboy fruit" from the start.
Rayleigh & Crocus knew too, the moment they saw Roger's Strawhat which passed to Shanks with Luffy.

Oden & probably Whitebeard (from his final Conversation with Roger where Roger told him everything) knew it too. Hence why Whitebeard bet the New Era on Luffy and recognized that Strawhat being passed from Shanks to Luffy.
Oden even said it on his Death.



In his letter to Toki, in his message to his Retainers



Which the Retainers understood as "the Dawn". And then spoke of to people like Pedro who believed it too.

The only question among the One Piece world at large, is whether Joyboy was Ace or Luffy - but people like Shanks, Rayleigh, Crocus, Whitebeard knew the answer.
Probably why Kaidou even went to Marineford to begin with - he thought Ace, the man who invaded his Home Island and declared to everyone that he'd bring down Kaidou - was actually the real Joyboy.

Luffy - the "Embodiment of Freedom" - following a Path or a Destiny which was foretold and fixed centuries before he was born.... that is really a contradicting message to send.

Plus something as iconic as "Rubber always bounces back" turning into "Sun God mythical Zoan" leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
 
SS is more iconic but I've re-read the Nika fights a couple times and I really got used to it. It's truly unique and fits OP perfectly.

Still think it was used at a wrong time with the are you having fun bs
I think G5 is a grandiose PU. It fits Luffy's theme perfectly and is way better than the stupid edgy full body hardening/Hulk fanfiction G5. Plus, the creativity of G5 is basically unimaginable. In one instance, Luffy is a giant, in another he's like Hercules and on the next he's like the mask, Tom and Jerry and Co. Yes, his PU has toonforce but G5 design is also cool and the gigantification is not really toonforce. It looks powerful and menancing. Especially Bajrang Gun which is the strongest attack up to date in OP.

By the way, G5 does have similarities with Super Saiyan; only in this case, Luffy's hair turns white instead of yellow.
 
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Kaidou said it best.



Mind & Body = where Mind is "Haki" & Body is "DF ability"

Luffy was bound to Awaken at some point. The bad part for me is that it was foretold long ago & the Roger Pirates knew it.
It's probably why Shanks stole this Fruit from the Govt and Shanks knew that Luffy was Joyboy or ate the "Joyboy fruit" from the start.
Rayleigh & Crocus knew too, the moment they saw Roger's Strawhat which passed to Shanks with Luffy.

Oden & probably Whitebeard (from his final Conversation with Roger where Roger told him everything) knew it too. Hence why Whitebeard bet the New Era on Luffy and recognized that Strawhat being passed from Shanks to Luffy.
Oden even said it on his Death.



In his letter to Toki, in his message to his Retainers



Which the Retainers understood as "the Dawn". And then spoke of to people like Pedro who believed it too.

The only question among the One Piece world at large, is whether Joyboy was Ace or Luffy - but people like Shanks, Rayleigh, Crocus, Whitebeard knew the answer.
Probably why Kaidou even went to Marineford to begin with - he thought Ace, the man who invaded his Home Island and declared to everyone that he'd bring down Kaidou - was actually the real Joyboy.

Luffy - the "Embodiment of Freedom" - following a Path or a Destiny which was foretold and fixed centuries before he was born.... that is really a contradicting message to send.

Plus something as iconic as "Rubber always bounces back" turning into "Sun God mythical Zoan" leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
"When your mind and body catches up to your powers"

Luffy awakened when his mind and body ceased function

Can't even be consistent with an explanation we got five seconds prior to the reveal lmao

G5 is ASS
 

ConquistadoR

The Rogue Prince
"When your mind and body catches up to your powers"

Luffy awakened when his mind and body ceased function

Can't even be consistent with an explanation we got five seconds prior to the reveal lmao

G5 is ASS
It is ass i never said i liked it.
It was a bullshit mid fight revive from death.
However, it wouldn't have happened to Luffy before Wano or Onigashima - that's when Kaidou acknowledges that Luffy's mind & body caught up to his Power.
 
H

Herrera95

Super Sayan. Iconic transformation that built DBZ and made it what it is right now.

G5. Thrash transformation that divided fandom made bunch to drop it and others to not enjoy it anymore.
 
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