General & Others Next Straw Hat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet
- Thread starter Uncle Van
- Start date
- Tags #c4ng2g carrot fans are still losers carrot haters are real losers seethe at the rabbit carrot is doing nothing because she doesn't matter carrot will never join the straw hats carrot's story never even began cry about carrot everyone else in the verse neg diffs the bunny imagine thinking stussy won't join its over furry bros keep the bunny on zou nobody else needs her let it go furry bros momo is breeding yamato no character is less relevant than carrot oden larper fans can't read stussy > carrot & yamato stussy supremacy who will be the next nakama of the week? yamato always had a better chance than carrot yamato story is over
The worst Literature teachers I’ve come across at least try to make the arguement that their interpretation is what the author truely intended.
What a certain delusional individual on here is essentially saying is that if the author comes out and refutes his interpretation of the story, then it’s the author who is wrong.
What a certain delusional individual on here is essentially saying is that if the author comes out and refutes his interpretation of the story, then it’s the author who is wrong.
That’s nuts
calling characters not active
that's kinda mean you know?!?
Ok
Again why ?
The problem is
1. This parameter doesn't work for all the strawhats
2. The fact of having a major appearance in the arc the character appear in doesn't have a relationship with the characterization of the character toward a strawhat construction.
Far from it. A good theory is a concise theory. Simple and not over complicated. Plus rewriting my own Pillar is something you guys have been saying from day one. This is in fact something I'm not against with as long as there are good arguments.
Ok. This is what I call the "tragedy"
Ok. This clarify it.
This doesn't mean that the presence of a Strawhat would be detrimental to the story. You need to explain why the presence of a strawhat would be problematic for the story. Because lets say for example that Carrot reappear in the story and gets a strong character arc and a rescue. Her tragedy taking place in wholecake, the presence of the strawhat wouldn't be a problem. So you need to explain this point.
Those two actions are not related in anyway. You need to explain why the presence of a strawhat is detrimental, and saying "because it means they failed" is not an excuse. Nothing in the story says that the strawhats can't fail.
You are making a fallacious comparison. You are confusing the character arc (when Luffy save the character) and the tragedy here. Those can be separated. In fact, they are mostly deparated.
Lets take the example of Carrot once again, in this case your reasonning would mean that Carrot's character arc is the battle of whole cake. The thing is : this is not the case. The character arc (where Luffy actually save the character) can happen a lot later.
This parameter is not working.
We are not in a conventionnal shonen here. Oda is only following the major trope of the shonen genra. It actually follows conventionnal storytelling for the rest and in conventionnal storytelling, the character can sometimes not achieve their desire.
Plus, even if he was following shonen genra, this would still be not an excuse to say that the dream of the strawhat can only be fullfiled by following Luffy. In fact, you can't be sure of anything in a story. That's a basic principle.
This parameter therefore doesn't work either.
Sanji needs to travel, not necessaraly follow Luffy to find the All blue.
I'm not ignoring it. In fact I agree with this point of yours. I'm just saying that (for clarification and good presentation) you need to explain why its important in term of characterization.
Because whatever you can say, when we talk about predicting a new strawhat: Narration > Design and marchendising.
I understand that territory full well being trained as well in the visual development such as concept art but my point remain the same. You must FIRST think about the characterization of the character when you are searching to predict a new strawhat. its something that is not negociable.
Beside that, I agree with your point. So much that I created one golden rule for that : The uniqueness of the character.
Not so much, all of that is related to the uniqueness of the character.
But if you go farther you will notice that actually all the proeminent character have different and unique fighting skill. Which means that the fighting skill parameters is pretty much useless. Hence why I deleted the Pillar concerning this parameter.
A character can be repeating a previous design and still be original. For example Yamato is repeating the design of Oden on various emplacement and still is original in its essence.
And no one would say that Yamato is not original.
But even then, for clarification purpose, you must explains why this parameters is important for the characterization. But it agains falls under the rule of originality.
On the contrary, randomness allows for more creativity and therefore more interesting fights. Look at gear 5 for exemple, its ultra random and very interesting.
Well, don't explain if you want, but don't expect us to say that this is a good system. SOrry. Here, you are confusing a lot of parameters, forgetting a lot of characterization parameters and either over simplifying things or over complicated them for no reason.
This need therefore a real rework. But this is useless as I can see that with a rework you would be having a similar prediction model as my previous iterations of my own prediction model (missing a lot of parameters) so you are just wasting your time here. You will just end up with the same result in fine.
This must be the most out of touch take i've heard on this thread. If you think that One Piece's storytelling is not comparable to a novel or any piece of storytelling in fact, you are putting two fingers into your eyes. One Piece is a NARRATIVE BASED story. Of course, its first visual, but the visual SERVE the story, not the opposite.
SOrry about that, but you are proving here that you don't understand yet how character design works.
To create a good character design, you don't start by drawing their design first (unless you don't have any ideas). You FIRST need to TELL their STORY. Its a foundamental of design and a foundamental of characterization and storytelling. It works for character design in art, but it also work in musical composition, in architecture, in painting etc.
So no, in One Piece, the design is not more important than the characterization. In One Piece, characterization is the LAW. As it is in all good stories.
No mate. That's not how you create a story.
In that specific example, let me explain you how it works (in the specific case of One Piece, because its a particular case):
1 - You decide of a theme for your arc. (The reality of war)
2 - You decide the vague arena for you arc (A desert / A battle over ressources)
3 - You create your message (In war, people die, you must rely on your friends and fight until the end of what is good to be heard)
4 - You create a protagonist that will be the center of this arc (Vivi)
5 - You create the characterization of this character (character traits / revelation / choice etc.)
6 - You create the antagonist in opposition to the character (Crocodile)
7 - You put the strawhat into the mix and start reflecting on the way the character of Luffy can influence the character and defeat the main antagonist
8 - You do the same for all the strawhat and create ally for the main protagonist (still Vivi)
9 - You can start reflecting on your arena and design it in a way that reflect the thematic and the struggle of your protagonist.
10 - You can start reflecting on the outlining and plotline/plotpoints of the story (the events and their order, the conflicts, the acts etc.)
11 - You can now design on the characters in conflict related to their own characterization and the thematic of the story
12 - Now you can add dialogues and really put the story on the page roughly.
As you can see, the story starts FIRST, the designs SECOND. I created a rough way of doing things and some steps can be mobile, but overall, you will always gets the story and the characterization of the protagonists and characters first and the visual designs second.
Without that, you will only get poor character and poor character designs.
The story of Vivi was most likely already written for another character. Oda changed the design based on his story, not the opposite.
Carrot is not bland. Its your perception speaking.
Same
You will see that in time, you will end up with the same parameters. At least if you are logical and rationnal about them.
Damn you are really not biased at all lol
Not what I said, please stop lying :)
Nah, I can't stand those guys, they don't know how to create a real story.
But in a way, they are not wrong. A writer can't get the grasp of everything they have written. I proved this point with my example of the star trek serie.
Again why ?
The problem is
1. This parameter doesn't work for all the strawhats
2. The fact of having a major appearance in the arc the character appear in doesn't have a relationship with the characterization of the character toward a strawhat construction.
Far from it. A good theory is a concise theory. Simple and not over complicated. Plus rewriting my own Pillar is something you guys have been saying from day one. This is in fact something I'm not against with as long as there are good arguments.
Ok. This is what I call the "tragedy"
Ok. This clarify it.
This doesn't mean that the presence of a Strawhat would be detrimental to the story. You need to explain why the presence of a strawhat would be problematic for the story. Because lets say for example that Carrot reappear in the story and gets a strong character arc and a rescue. Her tragedy taking place in wholecake, the presence of the strawhat wouldn't be a problem. So you need to explain this point.
Those two actions are not related in anyway. You need to explain why the presence of a strawhat is detrimental, and saying "because it means they failed" is not an excuse. Nothing in the story says that the strawhats can't fail.
You are making a fallacious comparison. You are confusing the character arc (when Luffy save the character) and the tragedy here. Those can be separated. In fact, they are mostly deparated.
Lets take the example of Carrot once again, in this case your reasonning would mean that Carrot's character arc is the battle of whole cake. The thing is : this is not the case. The character arc (where Luffy actually save the character) can happen a lot later.
This parameter is not working.
We are not in a conventionnal shonen here. Oda is only following the major trope of the shonen genra. It actually follows conventionnal storytelling for the rest and in conventionnal storytelling, the character can sometimes not achieve their desire.
Plus, even if he was following shonen genra, this would still be not an excuse to say that the dream of the strawhat can only be fullfiled by following Luffy. In fact, you can't be sure of anything in a story. That's a basic principle.
This parameter therefore doesn't work either.
Sanji needs to travel, not necessaraly follow Luffy to find the All blue.
I'm not ignoring it. In fact I agree with this point of yours. I'm just saying that (for clarification and good presentation) you need to explain why its important in term of characterization.
Because whatever you can say, when we talk about predicting a new strawhat: Narration > Design and marchendising.
I understand that territory full well being trained as well in the visual development such as concept art but my point remain the same. You must FIRST think about the characterization of the character when you are searching to predict a new strawhat. its something that is not negociable.
Beside that, I agree with your point. So much that I created one golden rule for that : The uniqueness of the character.
Not so much, all of that is related to the uniqueness of the character.
But if you go farther you will notice that actually all the proeminent character have different and unique fighting skill. Which means that the fighting skill parameters is pretty much useless. Hence why I deleted the Pillar concerning this parameter.
A character can be repeating a previous design and still be original. For example Yamato is repeating the design of Oden on various emplacement and still is original in its essence.
And no one would say that Yamato is not original.
But even then, for clarification purpose, you must explains why this parameters is important for the characterization. But it agains falls under the rule of originality.
On the contrary, randomness allows for more creativity and therefore more interesting fights. Look at gear 5 for exemple, its ultra random and very interesting.
Well, don't explain if you want, but don't expect us to say that this is a good system. SOrry. Here, you are confusing a lot of parameters, forgetting a lot of characterization parameters and either over simplifying things or over complicated them for no reason.
This need therefore a real rework. But this is useless as I can see that with a rework you would be having a similar prediction model as my previous iterations of my own prediction model (missing a lot of parameters) so you are just wasting your time here. You will just end up with the same result in fine.
This must be the most out of touch take i've heard on this thread. If you think that One Piece's storytelling is not comparable to a novel or any piece of storytelling in fact, you are putting two fingers into your eyes. One Piece is a NARRATIVE BASED story. Of course, its first visual, but the visual SERVE the story, not the opposite.
SOrry about that, but you are proving here that you don't understand yet how character design works.
To create a good character design, you don't start by drawing their design first (unless you don't have any ideas). You FIRST need to TELL their STORY. Its a foundamental of design and a foundamental of characterization and storytelling. It works for character design in art, but it also work in musical composition, in architecture, in painting etc.
So no, in One Piece, the design is not more important than the characterization. In One Piece, characterization is the LAW. As it is in all good stories.
No mate. That's not how you create a story.
In that specific example, let me explain you how it works (in the specific case of One Piece, because its a particular case):
1 - You decide of a theme for your arc. (The reality of war)
2 - You decide the vague arena for you arc (A desert / A battle over ressources)
3 - You create your message (In war, people die, you must rely on your friends and fight until the end of what is good to be heard)
4 - You create a protagonist that will be the center of this arc (Vivi)
5 - You create the characterization of this character (character traits / revelation / choice etc.)
6 - You create the antagonist in opposition to the character (Crocodile)
7 - You put the strawhat into the mix and start reflecting on the way the character of Luffy can influence the character and defeat the main antagonist
8 - You do the same for all the strawhat and create ally for the main protagonist (still Vivi)
9 - You can start reflecting on your arena and design it in a way that reflect the thematic and the struggle of your protagonist.
10 - You can start reflecting on the outlining and plotline/plotpoints of the story (the events and their order, the conflicts, the acts etc.)
11 - You can now design on the characters in conflict related to their own characterization and the thematic of the story
12 - Now you can add dialogues and really put the story on the page roughly.
As you can see, the story starts FIRST, the designs SECOND. I created a rough way of doing things and some steps can be mobile, but overall, you will always gets the story and the characterization of the protagonists and characters first and the visual designs second.
Without that, you will only get poor character and poor character designs.
The story of Vivi was most likely already written for another character. Oda changed the design based on his story, not the opposite.
Carrot is not bland. Its your perception speaking.
Same
You will see that in time, you will end up with the same parameters. At least if you are logical and rationnal about them.
Damn you are really not biased at all lol
Not what I said, please stop lying :)
Nah, I can't stand those guys, they don't know how to create a real story.
But in a way, they are not wrong. A writer can't get the grasp of everything they have written. I proved this point with my example of the star trek serie.
show me which shp doesnt fit with my criteria.ill wait.
who give you right to judge what perfect and whats not? when vivi doesnt join like carrot did, you can go back to this and start talk like that, and dont try to make assumption and generalize me. i never even mentioned you first or talk about your “pillar” since my account has been made.
so which shp have sad story where luffy appear in it and then join shp?
yeah i wonder why something named pirate crew need to travel together.
how many skeleton creature you see in moriah teritory? why brook not a zombie? design>naration its fact, sorry if its hurt your feeling.
name charachter with similar ability with shp that debut before them.
if yamato debut before oden and kaido, she original, if yamato debut after oden and kaido she not. end of story
every one who get punch with gear 5 feel pain
not everybody get depresed if they get hit by hologhost, therefore not consistent.
i dont expect anything from you, start talking when you make 100% accurate prediction.
what your real experience working in charachter design or animation or comic industries? why luffy scar below his left eye and not the right one? why he using straw hat and not other type of hat? why arlong tatoo nami in her arm not in her thigh,chest or somewhere else? why zoro wear a bandana and not use it as a mask? why sanji eyebrownlike spiral and not split into two or triangle? they can make all vinsmole have triangle eyebrow ,why going merry is a sheep? if kaya assistant is a pig would merry had pig head? where do you get your charachter design knowledge? im curious.
do you have any experience in that industry? do you think first avenger charachter get choosen by the need for the story telling, or do you think they work with charachter they have the right to, and then start from that?
carrot is rabbit mink debut in mink village wear common mink dress and green squad cape uniform from mink organization that jump and fly high ( furry AoT soldier)
yamato is teenager oc where nami as a base with recently trend two tone hair wearing cloth and weapon based on two important charachter in story. also with two recently popular fetish, armpit and sideboobs. and you call that good design?
like i said before, we can restart our discussion when carrot join and vivi dont.
who give you right to judge what perfect and whats not? when vivi doesnt join like carrot did, you can go back to this and start talk like that, and dont try to make assumption and generalize me. i never even mentioned you first or talk about your “pillar” since my account has been made.
so which shp have sad story where luffy appear in it and then join shp?
yeah i wonder why something named pirate crew need to travel together.
how many skeleton creature you see in moriah teritory? why brook not a zombie? design>naration its fact, sorry if its hurt your feeling.
name charachter with similar ability with shp that debut before them.
if yamato debut before oden and kaido, she original, if yamato debut after oden and kaido she not. end of story
every one who get punch with gear 5 feel pain
not everybody get depresed if they get hit by hologhost, therefore not consistent.
i dont expect anything from you, start talking when you make 100% accurate prediction.
what your real experience working in charachter design or animation or comic industries? why luffy scar below his left eye and not the right one? why he using straw hat and not other type of hat? why arlong tatoo nami in her arm not in her thigh,chest or somewhere else? why zoro wear a bandana and not use it as a mask? why sanji eyebrownlike spiral and not split into two or triangle? they can make all vinsmole have triangle eyebrow ,why going merry is a sheep? if kaya assistant is a pig would merry had pig head? where do you get your charachter design knowledge? im curious.
do you have any experience in that industry? do you think first avenger charachter get choosen by the need for the story telling, or do you think they work with charachter they have the right to, and then start from that?
carrot is rabbit mink debut in mink village wear common mink dress and green squad cape uniform from mink organization that jump and fly high ( furry AoT soldier)
yamato is teenager oc where nami as a base with recently trend two tone hair wearing cloth and weapon based on two important charachter in story. also with two recently popular fetish, armpit and sideboobs. and you call that good design?
like i said before, we can restart our discussion when carrot join and vivi dont.
This is incorrect. For example, Touhou Project is a franchise that keeps its stories vague but has memorable characters with good designs. Leaving the game’s world and characters open to interpretation is what made it as big as it is today, thanks largely to content created by the fandom over the years.
You can certainly tell a story with the characters you create, but you can’t bring it to life without giving it an identity. People do work in different ways, but coming up with character designs first can help with figuring out other details that you might not determine otherwise if you didn’t have a visual guide to go off of.
You can certainly tell a story with the characters you create, but you can’t bring it to life without giving it an identity. People do work in different ways, but coming up with character designs first can help with figuring out other details that you might not determine otherwise if you didn’t have a visual guide to go off of.
This is a very basic rule of character design.
In rare case it happens that the character art appears simply because of the design and randomness of the drawing. Its often the case with alien and monster designs (and even in those case you must characterize and make research first)
Exemple here with the remarkable piece of Hardy Fowler (concept artist):
Here you can see that even if he has some basic story selling points, he doesn't dive too much into the story of the character. Its more about key points that he marks as important.
This type of creation method really only works for rough designs like this one. (Rough in the sence that it is not really attached to any bigger project).. but for stories that needs more work (movies, comics, manga) then it became almost foundamental to think carefully about the story and the thematic of the character first as the thematic and the story will have an influence on the design itself.
In the concept art industry, those are done mostly by Writers and directors followed by art directors (those will eventually give the "definition" of the protagonist to the concept artist to make iterations) but for smaller or more personnal project like comics or Manga, the creator has to do this work alone first.
Here, David Colman (illustrator and animator) explain and show the importance of story in character design
Now, the importance of the story you give into your character design might vary, some artist are quite instictive with this sort of thing but others (like Oda) are (or seem) very very focus on doing a deep research of storytelling and the story behind the character before creating them. You can see that mainly because of the symbolism that shine through the most important protagonist of One PIece.
Jinbe. Jeinbe is a side character during his introduction.
Nami. Nami is a side character on the arc of her introduction
Robin. Robin is a secondary antagonist during the arc of her introduction
Not perfect, just efficiant. I'm not playing here. I'm trying to find the best way to predict the next strawhat based on the characterization parameters that all the strawhat share. This can't be done if you are over complicating things or if you are over simplying things.
This is not the question. The question is, why having a strawhat during the tragedy would render the tragedy less impactfull for the character in term of strawhat characterization ?
Maybe, maybe not. You might think that the strawhat will sail together indefinitely, but this is not a certainty.
Do you know why Brook is a skeleton in term of narration and characterization ?
I'm not denying your point, I just say that you should put all the uniqueness point into one single parameter.
That's not how originality works mate.
Yeah, you might think rereading the story lol
Impossible.
Multiple years in 3D animation and movie school. And multiple years studying concept art theory on my own. Sadly I lack the level in term of technicity because I simply can't work. But I know a lot about character design, but overall design in general.
We don't know. it could have a meaning in term of symbolism but its unknown. All that we know is that this unearned scar must always be visible.
Simple. Luffy represents freedom. And strawhats are associated in the contemporain culture with the notion of free spirit, calm, lack of anxiety, happyness and joy in general.
Probably because Oda prefer to show an arm being stabbed rather than a leg. And also because a tatoo on the leg is less easy to hide and more difficult to draw. But in storywise, Arlong probably wanted Nami to be able to see her tatoo with a simple look, which would be a little bit more difficult on the leg.
First because Zoro is most likely inspired by Zorro the south american vigilante and story wise, probably because for ZOro its more practical to were is "beast mode" on his arm rather than a mask.
Because Sanjiwas firstly named "naruto" from the food "narutomaki" a spiral food based on fish. THis name had a sence because Sanji was meant to be a chef. Plus the spiral also has a relationship with the sea and we all know what All blue is.
No. The point of the merry is to symbolize (at least in my interpretation) innocence. Therefore the ship dying represent the innocence that is going away. This innocence gave place to something else, a sun/lion head. This represent pride and happyness.
Sadly no. I felt sick before I could get any real experiences at least something else than school and academic work. This doesn't mean that I don't know how both those industries works. I studied with many professionnal both in storytelling and in Art design. But since I can't work, write or draw.. I study. After that, I studied on my own both concept art and screenwriting for more than 10 years in order to be ready for the moment I could get into action.
So, even tho I don't work.. And even tho there is obviously profesionnal tips and tricks that I can't know.. I'm extremely solid on my theoretical knowledge.
You are not talking here about the creation of a character but the overtake of a license from a studio.
In rare case it happens that the character art appears simply because of the design and randomness of the drawing. Its often the case with alien and monster designs (and even in those case you must characterize and make research first)
Exemple here with the remarkable piece of Hardy Fowler (concept artist):
Here you can see that even if he has some basic story selling points, he doesn't dive too much into the story of the character. Its more about key points that he marks as important.
This type of creation method really only works for rough designs like this one. (Rough in the sence that it is not really attached to any bigger project).. but for stories that needs more work (movies, comics, manga) then it became almost foundamental to think carefully about the story and the thematic of the character first as the thematic and the story will have an influence on the design itself.
In the concept art industry, those are done mostly by Writers and directors followed by art directors (those will eventually give the "definition" of the protagonist to the concept artist to make iterations) but for smaller or more personnal project like comics or Manga, the creator has to do this work alone first.
Here, David Colman (illustrator and animator) explain and show the importance of story in character design
Now, the importance of the story you give into your character design might vary, some artist are quite instictive with this sort of thing but others (like Oda) are (or seem) very very focus on doing a deep research of storytelling and the story behind the character before creating them. You can see that mainly because of the symbolism that shine through the most important protagonist of One PIece.
Jinbe. Jeinbe is a side character during his introduction.
Nami. Nami is a side character on the arc of her introduction
Robin. Robin is a secondary antagonist during the arc of her introduction
Not perfect, just efficiant. I'm not playing here. I'm trying to find the best way to predict the next strawhat based on the characterization parameters that all the strawhat share. This can't be done if you are over complicating things or if you are over simplying things.
This is not the question. The question is, why having a strawhat during the tragedy would render the tragedy less impactfull for the character in term of strawhat characterization ?
Maybe, maybe not. You might think that the strawhat will sail together indefinitely, but this is not a certainty.
Do you know why Brook is a skeleton in term of narration and characterization ?
I'm not denying your point, I just say that you should put all the uniqueness point into one single parameter.
That's not how originality works mate.
Yeah, you might think rereading the story lol
Impossible.
Multiple years in 3D animation and movie school. And multiple years studying concept art theory on my own. Sadly I lack the level in term of technicity because I simply can't work. But I know a lot about character design, but overall design in general.
We don't know. it could have a meaning in term of symbolism but its unknown. All that we know is that this unearned scar must always be visible.
Simple. Luffy represents freedom. And strawhats are associated in the contemporain culture with the notion of free spirit, calm, lack of anxiety, happyness and joy in general.
Probably because Oda prefer to show an arm being stabbed rather than a leg. And also because a tatoo on the leg is less easy to hide and more difficult to draw. But in storywise, Arlong probably wanted Nami to be able to see her tatoo with a simple look, which would be a little bit more difficult on the leg.
First because Zoro is most likely inspired by Zorro the south american vigilante and story wise, probably because for ZOro its more practical to were is "beast mode" on his arm rather than a mask.
Because Sanjiwas firstly named "naruto" from the food "narutomaki" a spiral food based on fish. THis name had a sence because Sanji was meant to be a chef. Plus the spiral also has a relationship with the sea and we all know what All blue is.
No. The point of the merry is to symbolize (at least in my interpretation) innocence. Therefore the ship dying represent the innocence that is going away. This innocence gave place to something else, a sun/lion head. This represent pride and happyness.
Sadly no. I felt sick before I could get any real experiences at least something else than school and academic work. This doesn't mean that I don't know how both those industries works. I studied with many professionnal both in storytelling and in Art design. But since I can't work, write or draw.. I study. After that, I studied on my own both concept art and screenwriting for more than 10 years in order to be ready for the moment I could get into action.
So, even tho I don't work.. And even tho there is obviously profesionnal tips and tricks that I can't know.. I'm extremely solid on my theoretical knowledge.
You are not talking here about the creation of a character but the overtake of a license from a studio.