Controversial General Political Discussion

[Okamakama]

Ignorant people don't realize that the Qur'an wasn't revealed in one day, but over the course of 23 years - and more importantly - in the context of the adversities the Muslims faced at the time.

But then again, this is religious doctrine and has no place in a politics thread where the average user isn't even aware of their own religious scriptures.

@AL sama if religious debate is allowed, a separate thread should be made for it with explicit ruling that it should stay within that thread

Yes, it was revealed over the course of a warlord's life to the shifting needs of his war.

You have wrong idea about my faith.

You are not a religious expert. Have you read Quran yourself?


This is one verse from top of my head:

If the enemy is inclined towards peace, make peace with them. And put your trust in Allah. Indeed, He ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
8:61


https://quran.com/en/al-anfal/61


What you guys do is, take one verse and write a book on it. Why dont you take other verses into account?

I have read the Qu'ran twice, cover to cover, two separate translations. Can you say the same?

The concept of peace, in this context, is submission with the way of Islam. There is no prescriptive form of peace, as that is left subjective. Oft or not, peace can only be attained through submission and conversion.

"Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell after death. (Quran 2:85)"

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (Quran 2:191)"

I am by far not a religious expert, but I am not ignorant of your faith.

Post automatically merged: Nov 6, 2023

It's weird how the people who should be in favor of separating church from state will often bring up scripture with politics. At least the people who see imaginary antisemites actually follow their faith for the most part, with agnostic or atheist it's pointless.

When one who is governed by religion, and makes their political opinions based on their religion, then critiquing the religion that underpins their political decisions and opinions becomes a necessity.

None the less, I am not actually an atheist-- so that, in of itself, is an interesting assertion.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Yes, it was revealed over the course of a warlord's life to the shifting needs of his war.



I have read the Qu'ran twice, cover to cover, two separate translations. Can you say the same?

The concept of peace, in this context, is submission with the way of Islam. There is no prescriptive form of peace, as that is left subjective. Oft or not, peace can only be attained through submission and conversion.

"Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell after death. (Quran 2:85)"

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (Quran 2:191)"

I am by far not a religious expert, but I am not ignorant of your faith.

Post automatically merged: Nov 6, 2023

When one who is governed by religion, and makes their political opinions based on their religion, then critiquing the religion that underpins their political decisions and opinions becomes a necessity.

None the less, I am not actually an atheist-- so that, in of itself, is an interesting assertion.

Lol

 

[Zenos7]

Ignorant people don't realize that the Qur'an wasn't revealed in one day, but over the course of 23 years - and more importantly - in the context of the adversities the Muslims faced at the time.

But then again, this is religious doctrine and has no place in a politics thread where the average user isn't even aware of their own religious scriptures.

@AL sama if religious debate is allowed, a separate thread should be made for it with explicit ruling that it should stay within that thread

Ignorant people arent aware that verses can get abrogated. Surah 9 is one of the last and together with mainstream sahih hadith pretty much nullify all 'peaceful' verses you can cherry pick.

 

[Roo]

It's weird how the people who should be in favor of separating church from state will often bring up scripture with politics.

Because religion seeps into politics more often than not. I don’t see how you can deny that as an American. This country is filled with right wing Christian fundamentalists trying to pass policies that favors their doctrine

 

[Zenos7]

Yes, it was revealed over the course of a warlord's life to the shifting needs of his war.

And based on how powerful he was, which is why the shit is getting more radical the later it is. And obviously after the people of the book vehemently rejected him

Post automatically merged: Nov 6, 2023

Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell after death. (Quran 2:85)"

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (Quran 2:191)"

Christians and jews are also described as the worst of creatures

 

[Fn Lucci]

When one who is governed by religion, and makes their political opinions based on their religion, then critiquing the religion that underpins their political decisions and opinions becomes a necessity.

None the less, I am not actually an atheist-- so that, in of itself, is an interesting assertion.

I was speaking in general, quoting someone else. Frankly the "I'm kinda this sort of that" thing doesn't interest me. If you say "your faith" then you are someone not of that faith, that's all. The most pointless thing is to debate a faith that someone doesn't have.

As far as governing goes, clearly, there isn't one belief. Iran is different from Morocco, Morocco is different from Algeria, Algeria is different from Turkey, and many Jews abroad don't necessarily support the IDF. The US is largely Christian with a Catholic president and yet we have legal same sex marriage for one thing. So faith doesn't matter in politics unless you just want to blame it for something.

Because religion seeps into politics more often than not. I don’t see how you can deny that as an American. This country is filled with right wing Christian fundamentalists trying to pass policies that favors their doctrine

And yet we're one of the most liberal countries, if not the most, in the world.

 

[Okamakama]

Lol

Lol all you want, but I have committed time to theological study as well as the academic. Islam portrays itself as the religion of peace, but it is peace through war and conversion. It is peace through compulsion. It is antithetical to democracy.

All the peaceful verses you can quote are easily countered by verses that encourage violence against those who do not believe or violate the scripture.

Much like it takes years to build something but seconds to destroy it, years of peace can be nullified by one act of heinous violence. Islam cannot be the religion of peace if it ever endorses the opposite: and it does.

And based on how powerful he was, which is why the shit is getting more radical the later it is. And obviously after the people of the book vehemently rejected him

Post automatically merged: Nov 6, 2023

Christians and Jews are also described as the worst of creatures

I have quote the last part in a previous comment. But yes, it was his way of asserting authority depending on his needs at the time.

 

[Zenos7]

Zenos, please stay away from these topics.
You are not an intellectual.

You dont want to listen to others, you have just heard about few verses and drawing inferences from them.

The interpretation of Quran is a complex matter and even the Imams have differences when it comes to explanations. That's why they say it is not ok to take one verse and act on it, you need to verify it from other verses, instances, Ahadees, and such.

You dont understand 1% of Islam and Quran.

I will leave it at this.

Thanks

Baseless assumptions. Im actually well educated on this lol. Im not even voicing my own opinions, im describing what mainstream sunni islam teaches, based on mainstream sahih hadith and tafsirs. And the tafsirs usually dont align with the mental gymnastics of people like you who try to pretend there are no problematic teachings, whether that be about violence/war or straight scientific errors lmao.

You're welcome

 

[ArturCantSpeakJapanese]

No, I am speaking of ACTUAL things that are happening, Nika. Jewish missing persons photos are being torn down in London by Islamists. People have been shouted at, and jeered, and harassed by Islamic followers because they dared try to insinuate that Hamas was a terrorist organisation.

If you CANNOT see this, or more accurately, wilfully ignore the bad actors in your community, sect, or "tribe" then you are morally defunct and are standing on a foundation of lies and immorality.

This belongs here because it's intrinsically tied to the debate. You cannot obfuscate or deflect. I am not making a strawman. These are instances that are easily found online. You just wish to dismiss them because they are unfortunate truths that you do not wish to confront.

You are not justice.

You are not righteousness.

A person who actually cared would tackle all sides. They would call out bad actors in their communities and rally against the atrocities committed against them. You do part two, but part one? Silence.

You get what you give. It's that simple, I'm sorry. No one is willing to respect people who don't respect them. When Israel and their allies dehumanize Palestinians and call them all terrorist animals and tear apart their property, steal their homes, kill their children, you brag about it and say it's justified. When a person tears down a poster you cry crocodile tears and say the antisemites are coming. How should I care? If you think it's bad when you call hamas terrorists, you should see how bad people get treated when they call Israel fascist.

 

[notAfanboy]

"Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell after death. (Quran 2:85)"

That's the distinction between religions. I am not acting a religious missionary here. Did I say join Islam if you want to go to heaven?

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (Quran 2:191)"

If you have more questions or doubts, feel free to ask.


Explanation:
As already explained briefly in the opening remarks, the verse 191, that is, وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِ‌جُوهُم (And kill them; wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out...), was revealed after the happening at Hudaybiyyah حُدیبیہ at a time when the Holy Prophet ﷺ decided, in accordance with the condition agreed upon in the Peace Treaty of Hudaybiyyah حُدیبیہ ، to embark on a journey to Makkah to perform the qada' قضاء of ` Umrah along with his Companions, something he was stopped from doing a year before by the disbelievers of Makkah. The noble Companions ؓ ، on the eve of this projected journey, had started to worry about the disbelievers who could not be trusted upon in a peace treaty. If they chose to be aggressive, as they did a year before, what option are they going to take? Thereupon, the words used in the present verse gave them the permission to meet the challenge of their aggression and kill them where they find them. And if they could, it was permissible for them to drive the disbelievers out from where they had driven the believers out.

And I have been reading Quran since I was 8-9 years old, or maybe even younger than this.

 

[Zenos7]

And yet we're one of the most liberal countries, if not the most, in the world.

The bible is much easier to cherry pick because its not believed to be the inerrant eternal word of god.

 

[Roo]

And yet we're one of the most liberal countries, if not the most, in the world.

Yeah that’s in spite of them, not because of them. Those people threaten our liberal society

 

[Okamakama]

You get what you give. It's that simple, I'm sorry. No one is willing to respect people who don't respect them. When Israel and their allies dehumanize Palestinians and call them all terrorist animals and tear apart their property, steal their homes, kill their children, you brag about it and say it's justified. When a person tears down a poster you cry crocodile tears and say the antisemites are coming. How should I care?

No. Both sides hate each other. It's NOT just the Palestinians who are victims.

 

[Zenos7]

Islam portrays itself as the religion of peace

More like modern muslims portray it as such

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

Lol all you want, but I have committed time to theological study as well as the academic. Islam portrays itself as the religion of peace, but it is peace through war and conversion. It is peace through compulsion. It is antithetical to democracy.

All the peaceful verses you can quote are easily countered by verses that encourage violence against those who do not believe or violate the scripture.

Much like it takes years to build something but seconds to destroy it, years of peace can be nullified by one act of heinous violence. Islam cannot be the religion of peace if it ever endorses the opposite: and it does.



I have quote the last part in a previous comment. But yes, it was his way of asserting authority depending on his needs at the time.

Lol

 

[Zenos7]

No one is willing to respect people who don't respect them.

Except for jesus, supposedly

 

[notAfanboy]

Baseless assumptions. Im actually well educated on this lol. Im not even voicing my own opinions, im describing what mainstream sunni islam teaches, based on mainstream sahih hadith and tafsirs. And the tafsirs usually dont align with the mental gymnastics of people like you who try to pretend there are no problematic teachings, whether that be about violence/war or straight scientific errors lmao.

You're welcome

I am a Sunni Muslim myself, ask from me. And tell me what you have learned about my religion?

 

[ArturCantSpeakJapanese]

You have wrong idea about my faith.

You are not a religious expert. Have you read Quran yourself?


This is one verse from top of my head:

If the enemy is inclined towards peace, make peace with them. And put your trust in Allah. Indeed, He ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
8:61


https://quran.com/en/al-anfal/61


What you guys do is, take one verse and write a book on it. Why dont you take other verses into account?

The Zionist cult's whole deal is they know better than YHWH and can go behind his back and trick him and he'll forgive them because they're his chosen people. That's how they treat Judaism, by picking and choosing what they want and writing new books while ignoring everything else, so it's no surprise that's how they view other religions.

 

[Zenos7]

I am a Sunni Muslim myself, ask from me. And tell me what you have learned about my religion?

Refer to my past posts about adherents of a religion not necessarily following the teachings completely.

 

[Gaimon The Pirate]

I am a Sunni Muslim myself, ask from me. And tell me what you have learned about my religion?

Why are you talking with a clown, that has already outed himself as a racist when saying that muslims are stealing british culture.
Oh, btw, he is an immigrant himself, but he doesn't see himself as a threat to the above mentioned culture because of course, he is better than them.
Classic kick the ladder behaviour.
Posting in a clown thread.