General & Others Next Straw Hat Crew Members and the Grand Fleet
- Thread starter Uncle Van
- Start date
- Tags #c4ng2g carrot fans are still losers carrot haters are real losers seethe at the rabbit carrot is doing nothing because she doesn't matter carrot will never join the straw hats carrot's story never even began cry about carrot everyone else in the verse neg diffs the bunny imagine thinking stussy won't join its over furry bros keep the bunny on zou nobody else needs her let it go furry bros momo is breeding yamato no character is less relevant than carrot oden larper fans can't read stussy > carrot & yamato stussy supremacy who will be the next nakama of the week? yamato always had a better chance than carrot yamato story is over
I still think it's insane how understated Bonney's transition has been from just another vaguely interesting one piece side character to central focus along with Kuma and how I'm sure there will be substantial outrage if Oda has her join the crew.
But I cannot ignore the development and how it screams crewmember. It's weird how since she's been confirmed to be a child playing adult how much that changes her dynamics with just about everyone. If she were to join she would fulfill the only other essential pirate role we've seen get focus in the series which would be pirate apprentice. Oda has gone out of his way to emphasize Bonney's desire to emulate Nika. Much like a young Shanks wanted of Roger.
Also, the paternal energy beaming from Luffy since "discovering" Bonney at Sea this arc, has been overlooked if not ignored. Even rewatching the anime's adaptations of Egghead's earlier events. You almost get the sense Luffy still views Bonney as the little girl he saved from the eddy, despite her change in appearance later. Perhaps more than Tama, but arguably not yet at the same level as Momonosuke. But we can all agree her affinity and knowledge of Nika expedites a lot now that everyone knows who's who. Luffy looks after her in ways we rarely see from him. Even not right out retaliating when she attacked him for yoking up on Kuma Cop.
Also just the dialogue about Luffy teaching her the real way Nika fights...I'm this " " close to thinking she gets the Straw hat after everything is said and done.
But I cannot ignore the development and how it screams crewmember. It's weird how since she's been confirmed to be a child playing adult how much that changes her dynamics with just about everyone. If she were to join she would fulfill the only other essential pirate role we've seen get focus in the series which would be pirate apprentice. Oda has gone out of his way to emphasize Bonney's desire to emulate Nika. Much like a young Shanks wanted of Roger.
Also, the paternal energy beaming from Luffy since "discovering" Bonney at Sea this arc, has been overlooked if not ignored. Even rewatching the anime's adaptations of Egghead's earlier events. You almost get the sense Luffy still views Bonney as the little girl he saved from the eddy, despite her change in appearance later. Perhaps more than Tama, but arguably not yet at the same level as Momonosuke. But we can all agree her affinity and knowledge of Nika expedites a lot now that everyone knows who's who. Luffy looks after her in ways we rarely see from him. Even not right out retaliating when she attacked him for yoking up on Kuma Cop.
Also just the dialogue about Luffy teaching her the real way Nika fights...I'm this " " close to thinking she gets the Straw hat after everything is said and done.
Ok then...
First:
No. Oda NEVER fucked up with the audience. Unless, not like you might think. What he did with Yamato is only letting her express what her character in this situation would naturally express: which is to join the crew of Luffy. But Oda never said or promised that Yamato would join (you never had the foreshadow of a tiny hint of Yamato joining the crew) no.. Oda while letting Yamato express her desires actually showed up the opposite:
- He made Yamato stands with Momo
- He made Luffy missname Yamato
- He made Yamato have a conflict with Luffy just after the expression of the desire
- He made Jinbe question the joining of Yamato
- He made Yamato literally a reverse portrayal of Oden (which should have hinted clearly to the readers that Yamato is actually depicted as the opposite of Oden)
- He even hinted the fact that Yamato would become the guardian deity of Wano through the words of Kaido and his wish to make Yamato the shogun ruling over Wano.
But more that EVERYTHING else.. he created something that author uses OFTEN and that you guys are still oblivious too : the subversive affirmations.
In short, by corrupting a premisse of Yamato wanting to join the crew, Oda actually hinted in plain sight the fact that Yamato would actually NEVER join.
Subversive affirmations is something that author uses ALL THE TIME to create an inception into our readers minds that something might not happen the way we are told it will happen. Its a way to subconsciouly prepare the reader to the reality of an upcoming event.
So no, Oda never lied to you, or rather, yes he did. But Yamato ALWAYS was meant and technically depicted as not joining the crew.
SECOND..
Actually yes I CAN.
Its called the 5 golden rules and the 10 pillars.
5 Golden Rules being:
All of this to say that yes, we can say what constitute a Strawhat Nakama in the end of the day.
Now...
While I think that this model explain perfectly what constitute a good strawhat... and despite what I've been saying. Its not the best to predict. The reason is actually extremely simple and something I didn't even cared to think about since I wasn't thinking in the right order to begin with:
This system is NOT a prediction system, its a road map !
This means that EVERY strawhats will pass through one of those points, but the tricky part is that Oda being Oda, those point might not appear in the same order. And sometimes, those will appear just before the actual recruitment.
For example if we take Robin's example: she has an antagonistic introduction followed by multi layered characterization toward the end of Alabasta. There are also hints of symbolic reach and the hint of a tragedy and but there is not trace of other data. Now, if we take the moment Robin joins the crew for the first time, we can add 4 potential more points.. but at this time, Robin already joined, just not officially, so do we still need to search for clues ? Not really.
Other example, for Franky: Franky had the antagonistic introduction, some fair multi layared characterization, a good symbolic reach. based on those data, we can't really predict Franky as a future crewmate, unless we remembers taht Luffy drew him clearly at the beginning of the arc. We can therefore deduce that the story will focus on him and that he will have a tragedy and a character arc etc.. but again, that's not enough.. We can of course predict the majority of the pillar once the flashback of Franky ends (because of the elements of the flashback), but at this points its pretty obvious that Franky will join or is the best placed to join so the system is not relevant anymore..
The other simple example is Zoro. In reality every points here about Zoro appeared very rapidely, we didn't really had time to predict anything. Unless if we remembered the fact that Luffy predicted to recruit Zoro..
So in anyway.. the points don't really have a prediction value at least not in the way I intended them to have one. In that sence, people here were right. BUT its STILL relevant as a road map, meaning that now we can say that every POTENTIAL candidate will path through ALL those steps.
Now... If this system can't really predict anything, CAN WE predict anything ?
Well... Yes I still think so.. But I think that we are looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead for trying to confirm a candidate and therefore confirm a bias, we should do the opposite
I mean that instead of saying "how can we say that Bonney will join", the thing we should really ask ourself is rather: "How can we get rid of any possible other candidate ?"
While I tried to do that at first with the 5 golden rules. In reality, I discovered only what the strawhats had in common at the end of the line, not what they needed to have to be good potential candidate.
And here is why my story with Carrot is important:
I think that instead of looking at the post or a dream or anything like that, we should look at one core principle:
THE NARRATIVE POTENTIAL
--
What do I mean by narrative potential ? Well.. I mean by that ALL the little clues that could indicate that a character could be developping the 5 golden Rules and the 10 Pillars. And all of this can fall under one parameter :
THE PRESENCE OF PATTERNS
I've come to understand that One Piece is written by someone with clear narrative patterns in mind. Those pattern are repeated in situations and in the characters. Most of the times, those pattern serves narrative purposes. For example:
- At the beginning of an arc, the strawhats will most likely be separated. This will allow the story to adopt multiple point of view and to enhance the different thematics.
- The way battle are structured in One Piece is always going from the outside to the inside and from the less relevant battles for the story at the time to the most revelant one (being Luffy's one), this is why the battle of the strawhats will finish mostly first, then the two commanders (Sanji and Zoro will have their times) and then Luffy will have the finishing move sometimes in tandem with the fight of the arc main protagonist or equivalent. Its important as it creates a form of countdown toward the end of the arc and a way to keep things exciting yet predictive enough for the reader to expect the following of the fights.
- In stories were Luffy is supposed to have a clear end goal, there is a narrative pattern in the way Luffy is presented in the arc : at first he will be in the discovering phase, to him is presented the reason why he will fight to the death (most of the time because of an act of kindness from the native population) and the character he will fight for, then Luffy faces a series of challenges and he is progressively cut from the narration.. this is were the story progress on the characterization and the story of the main protagonists of said arc. (Nami, Vivi, Conis/Kyros, Ace, Shiraoshi, Rebecca, Momo), then.. when everything seems lost and we arrive to the point of the narration were everything needs to feels like there is no tomorrow, when its the end for those character and their vision or when they are at their lowest, then Luffy appears.. You should CLEARLY remember those moments, the way Oda structures his narration here (Lack of Luffy (either from the readers or the main antagonist) > characterization > hope lost > reappearance of Luffy) is very simple, but extremely efficient to create amazing emotional moments and this is what transform Luffy more and more into a real hero:
So.. patterns are important in One Piece, they shape a LOT the final story so I think we should look for them or RATHER... the impossibilities of such pattern in some characters.
For example, we can't expect a character like Raizo to have the same emotionnal range as a character like Momonosuke, the reason because Raizo has a lot of attribute of a secondary character that tends - in One Piece - not to evolve too much.. BUT its not the case for a character like Yamato when we first meet them..
In reality character like Yamato have an latent "narrative potential" meaning that they do not fit into any real categories and are therefore movable in the spectra of character.
Another example of that is Bonney, we can't expect Bonney to have the secondary characterization or the same characterization as character that have pattern of characterization closer to rivals (smoker / kids / Law ) so we know that she has a narrative potential in the arc and the question is therefore: "does this potential can lead toward the crew ?
In reality, not so much as Bonney also shares a lot of characterization patterns with the "princess" characters of One Piece (Momo / Vivi / Rebecca) as they all have big external struggles that do not really have something to do with the strawhats per say and more with their environment or situations. (which is different with Nami and Robin or Sanji as their internal conflict was directly connected to their relationship with the Strawhats and Luffy)
So....
To sum up a little bit, if we want to predict a character, we must look at their NARRATIVE POTENTIAL. Its not something that is evident and will in fact be something that will jump in your face or not. This is the potential for the development of the 5 golden rules and the 10 PIllars in the characters and this can be predicted if we look a bit closer to the pattern of the character.
What we must therefore do, is rule out every characters that have very similar pattern with:
- Tiersary character: they are the character that accompagny the secondary characters or the strawhats. Most of the time not implicated emotionnally in the story, there are characterized by a quirky personnality and a few emotions.
- Secondary characters (most of the times characterized by a few emotion pattern and one funny character trait), they can have a few good impactfull moments and they are related to the prince or princess by blood or friendship
- Rivals and ally (most of the time characterized by a deep "edgy" characterization material, those are the character that you will have hard time to find in funny characterization for example)
- Strong antagonist(s) (most of the times characterized by their oppressive traits and actions)
- The funny antagonist/Antagonist allies: Those are the allies of the antagonist(s), characterized mostly by a funny cahracter traits or physical traits.
- The treasure character: This is the character that will act nicely with Luffy and will be the reason why he fight. It will be most of the time an innocent character that will face a very hard reality
- The helper of the princes and princesses and ally: Those are the character that acts as the helper of the "prince and princesses", they will most of the time sacrifice themself for the sake of the cause or help Luffy or the strawhat move forward in the adventure
- The guide of the will: This will be one type of character that will help either the strawhats or have an effect on the prince and princesses and the Kings and hidden rulers to the point that they the conflict of the story is most of the type a result of their actions. They are characterized by a the fact that they are a vessel to deliver STRONG moral values.
- The Kings and hidden rulers : The characters that are usually characterized through their status and the fact that they will most often be incapable of acting, they will most often distribute key information at the end of the arc or be a way through which key information will be delivered.
- The "prince and princesses": Sometime the treasure cahracter also, its the character that Luffy will need to save in the arc and around which the theme of the arc will be developped. Its often the character with the best range of emotion and the character that will completely change.
- The members of the fleet: Those are specifically the captains of the fleets: They are characterized by their strong will and their complete absence of fear in front of danger and most of all, their independance. The two main characters of the fleet (Bartholomeo and Cavendish) have strong character arc as well.
As you can see... a character like Yamato is not obvious at the start of their journey, so they fit COMPLETELY the description of a character with huge narrative potential. Another character that fits this description right now are Vegapunk and Stussy. They both have immension narrative potential left, their story could go in a vast number of directions.
And... what this post made me finally realize is WHY I clearly choosed to focus on Carrot's character on the first place. I knew that she had a narrative potential, but I didn't really put word on it.
Its now done. Just like Yamato, you can see that Carrot ALSO have an amazing NARRATIVE POTENTIAL.
Carrot doesn't fit the regular patterns of Oda.. In fact she is one of the only character in the story to this day not to fit those patterns. Carrot could be called a secondary character, yes, but NO, she had in fact MAJOR influence on the story, MAJOR moments, MAJOR emotional relevancy (proportionnaly to her characterization of course) and had A MAJOR presence in the story that NO character ever had without falling into one of those 11 categories.
Carrot is literally an alien in the story of One Piece
And that's what I'm screaming and trying to tell people since the beginning of my journey here and on Twitter. Her story is simply not normal in One Piece.. Its like Oda suddenly changed his entire process just to make Carrot.
And my explanation at the time is that it can only be explain because Carrot is destined to be a strawhat as only the strawhats are characterized that way.
But Oda prove me (for the moment) wrong.. so... WTF ???
What HAPPENED ??
Why this character (actually set of + Pedro) in the first place ??
This is an enigma and the reason why...............
.... This is wrong from beginning to end.
Not only is it untrue in theory or in the narrative but it also untrue in practice just as I explained previously.
The simple fact that a fanbase was created the moment Carrot appeared is significant enough to graps just how impactfull her character was. I STILL believe that her story was (or is ???) supposed to be much more.
Carrot has the most attribute to be a candidate and there were all the reason to believe that she would become a strawhat at the time. Its simply undeniable..
Or story slowed down - granted - but you can't act like the years during whole cake and the hype surrounding Carrot's was not present.
And just like I explained, this wasn't present because of no reason. There was an actual purpose behind this character...
And it was most likely a purpose having something to do with the fact of becoming a potential strawhat... an idea that seems to have disappear over time.
Carrot was narratively the best candidate in the last decade. From a narrative standpoint its simply undeniable.
-
Oh but you can lay down the laws if you are feeling brave... but you never EVER tells me the Rules !
I tell you what... its gonna be a whoppper !!
You want this thread back ?
THEN COME AND GET IT !!
First:
No. Oda NEVER fucked up with the audience. Unless, not like you might think. What he did with Yamato is only letting her express what her character in this situation would naturally express: which is to join the crew of Luffy. But Oda never said or promised that Yamato would join (you never had the foreshadow of a tiny hint of Yamato joining the crew) no.. Oda while letting Yamato express her desires actually showed up the opposite:
- He made Yamato stands with Momo
- He made Luffy missname Yamato
- He made Yamato have a conflict with Luffy just after the expression of the desire
- He made Jinbe question the joining of Yamato
- He made Yamato literally a reverse portrayal of Oden (which should have hinted clearly to the readers that Yamato is actually depicted as the opposite of Oden)
- He even hinted the fact that Yamato would become the guardian deity of Wano through the words of Kaido and his wish to make Yamato the shogun ruling over Wano.
But more that EVERYTHING else.. he created something that author uses OFTEN and that you guys are still oblivious too : the subversive affirmations.
In short, by corrupting a premisse of Yamato wanting to join the crew, Oda actually hinted in plain sight the fact that Yamato would actually NEVER join.
Subversive affirmations is something that author uses ALL THE TIME to create an inception into our readers minds that something might not happen the way we are told it will happen. Its a way to subconsciouly prepare the reader to the reality of an upcoming event.
So no, Oda never lied to you, or rather, yes he did. But Yamato ALWAYS was meant and technically depicted as not joining the crew.
SECOND..
Actually yes I CAN.
Its called the 5 golden rules and the 10 pillars.
5 Golden Rules being:
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story
- Be unique and have a unique ability
- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Have a guide of the will
- The Antagonistic introduction.
- The Multi layered characterization.
- The Symbolic reach.
- A Strong character arc.
- Hint of the 2 driving forces.
- The Rescue.
- A Tragedy.
- The Double Nakama link.
- The Post.
- The Shining Nakama Action.
All of this to say that yes, we can say what constitute a Strawhat Nakama in the end of the day.
Now...
While I think that this model explain perfectly what constitute a good strawhat... and despite what I've been saying. Its not the best to predict. The reason is actually extremely simple and something I didn't even cared to think about since I wasn't thinking in the right order to begin with:
This system is NOT a prediction system, its a road map !
This means that EVERY strawhats will pass through one of those points, but the tricky part is that Oda being Oda, those point might not appear in the same order. And sometimes, those will appear just before the actual recruitment.
For example if we take Robin's example: she has an antagonistic introduction followed by multi layered characterization toward the end of Alabasta. There are also hints of symbolic reach and the hint of a tragedy and but there is not trace of other data. Now, if we take the moment Robin joins the crew for the first time, we can add 4 potential more points.. but at this time, Robin already joined, just not officially, so do we still need to search for clues ? Not really.
Other example, for Franky: Franky had the antagonistic introduction, some fair multi layared characterization, a good symbolic reach. based on those data, we can't really predict Franky as a future crewmate, unless we remembers taht Luffy drew him clearly at the beginning of the arc. We can therefore deduce that the story will focus on him and that he will have a tragedy and a character arc etc.. but again, that's not enough.. We can of course predict the majority of the pillar once the flashback of Franky ends (because of the elements of the flashback), but at this points its pretty obvious that Franky will join or is the best placed to join so the system is not relevant anymore..
The other simple example is Zoro. In reality every points here about Zoro appeared very rapidely, we didn't really had time to predict anything. Unless if we remembered the fact that Luffy predicted to recruit Zoro..
So in anyway.. the points don't really have a prediction value at least not in the way I intended them to have one. In that sence, people here were right. BUT its STILL relevant as a road map, meaning that now we can say that every POTENTIAL candidate will path through ALL those steps.
Now... If this system can't really predict anything, CAN WE predict anything ?
Well... Yes I still think so.. But I think that we are looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead for trying to confirm a candidate and therefore confirm a bias, we should do the opposite
I mean that instead of saying "how can we say that Bonney will join", the thing we should really ask ourself is rather: "How can we get rid of any possible other candidate ?"
While I tried to do that at first with the 5 golden rules. In reality, I discovered only what the strawhats had in common at the end of the line, not what they needed to have to be good potential candidate.
And here is why my story with Carrot is important:
I think that instead of looking at the post or a dream or anything like that, we should look at one core principle:
THE NARRATIVE POTENTIAL
--
What do I mean by narrative potential ? Well.. I mean by that ALL the little clues that could indicate that a character could be developping the 5 golden Rules and the 10 Pillars. And all of this can fall under one parameter :
THE PRESENCE OF PATTERNS
I've come to understand that One Piece is written by someone with clear narrative patterns in mind. Those pattern are repeated in situations and in the characters. Most of the times, those pattern serves narrative purposes. For example:
- At the beginning of an arc, the strawhats will most likely be separated. This will allow the story to adopt multiple point of view and to enhance the different thematics.
- The way battle are structured in One Piece is always going from the outside to the inside and from the less relevant battles for the story at the time to the most revelant one (being Luffy's one), this is why the battle of the strawhats will finish mostly first, then the two commanders (Sanji and Zoro will have their times) and then Luffy will have the finishing move sometimes in tandem with the fight of the arc main protagonist or equivalent. Its important as it creates a form of countdown toward the end of the arc and a way to keep things exciting yet predictive enough for the reader to expect the following of the fights.
- In stories were Luffy is supposed to have a clear end goal, there is a narrative pattern in the way Luffy is presented in the arc : at first he will be in the discovering phase, to him is presented the reason why he will fight to the death (most of the time because of an act of kindness from the native population) and the character he will fight for, then Luffy faces a series of challenges and he is progressively cut from the narration.. this is were the story progress on the characterization and the story of the main protagonists of said arc. (Nami, Vivi, Conis/Kyros, Ace, Shiraoshi, Rebecca, Momo), then.. when everything seems lost and we arrive to the point of the narration were everything needs to feels like there is no tomorrow, when its the end for those character and their vision or when they are at their lowest, then Luffy appears.. You should CLEARLY remember those moments, the way Oda structures his narration here (Lack of Luffy (either from the readers or the main antagonist) > characterization > hope lost > reappearance of Luffy) is very simple, but extremely efficient to create amazing emotional moments and this is what transform Luffy more and more into a real hero:
So.. patterns are important in One Piece, they shape a LOT the final story so I think we should look for them or RATHER... the impossibilities of such pattern in some characters.
For example, we can't expect a character like Raizo to have the same emotionnal range as a character like Momonosuke, the reason because Raizo has a lot of attribute of a secondary character that tends - in One Piece - not to evolve too much.. BUT its not the case for a character like Yamato when we first meet them..
In reality character like Yamato have an latent "narrative potential" meaning that they do not fit into any real categories and are therefore movable in the spectra of character.
Another example of that is Bonney, we can't expect Bonney to have the secondary characterization or the same characterization as character that have pattern of characterization closer to rivals (smoker / kids / Law ) so we know that she has a narrative potential in the arc and the question is therefore: "does this potential can lead toward the crew ?
In reality, not so much as Bonney also shares a lot of characterization patterns with the "princess" characters of One Piece (Momo / Vivi / Rebecca) as they all have big external struggles that do not really have something to do with the strawhats per say and more with their environment or situations. (which is different with Nami and Robin or Sanji as their internal conflict was directly connected to their relationship with the Strawhats and Luffy)
So....
To sum up a little bit, if we want to predict a character, we must look at their NARRATIVE POTENTIAL. Its not something that is evident and will in fact be something that will jump in your face or not. This is the potential for the development of the 5 golden rules and the 10 PIllars in the characters and this can be predicted if we look a bit closer to the pattern of the character.
What we must therefore do, is rule out every characters that have very similar pattern with:
- Tiersary character: they are the character that accompagny the secondary characters or the strawhats. Most of the time not implicated emotionnally in the story, there are characterized by a quirky personnality and a few emotions.
- Secondary characters (most of the times characterized by a few emotion pattern and one funny character trait), they can have a few good impactfull moments and they are related to the prince or princess by blood or friendship
- Rivals and ally (most of the time characterized by a deep "edgy" characterization material, those are the character that you will have hard time to find in funny characterization for example)
- Strong antagonist(s) (most of the times characterized by their oppressive traits and actions)
- The funny antagonist/Antagonist allies: Those are the allies of the antagonist(s), characterized mostly by a funny cahracter traits or physical traits.
- The treasure character: This is the character that will act nicely with Luffy and will be the reason why he fight. It will be most of the time an innocent character that will face a very hard reality
- The helper of the princes and princesses and ally: Those are the character that acts as the helper of the "prince and princesses", they will most of the time sacrifice themself for the sake of the cause or help Luffy or the strawhat move forward in the adventure
- The guide of the will: This will be one type of character that will help either the strawhats or have an effect on the prince and princesses and the Kings and hidden rulers to the point that they the conflict of the story is most of the type a result of their actions. They are characterized by a the fact that they are a vessel to deliver STRONG moral values.
- The Kings and hidden rulers : The characters that are usually characterized through their status and the fact that they will most often be incapable of acting, they will most often distribute key information at the end of the arc or be a way through which key information will be delivered.
- The "prince and princesses": Sometime the treasure cahracter also, its the character that Luffy will need to save in the arc and around which the theme of the arc will be developped. Its often the character with the best range of emotion and the character that will completely change.
- The members of the fleet: Those are specifically the captains of the fleets: They are characterized by their strong will and their complete absence of fear in front of danger and most of all, their independance. The two main characters of the fleet (Bartholomeo and Cavendish) have strong character arc as well.
As you can see... a character like Yamato is not obvious at the start of their journey, so they fit COMPLETELY the description of a character with huge narrative potential. Another character that fits this description right now are Vegapunk and Stussy. They both have immension narrative potential left, their story could go in a vast number of directions.
And... what this post made me finally realize is WHY I clearly choosed to focus on Carrot's character on the first place. I knew that she had a narrative potential, but I didn't really put word on it.
Its now done. Just like Yamato, you can see that Carrot ALSO have an amazing NARRATIVE POTENTIAL.
Carrot doesn't fit the regular patterns of Oda.. In fact she is one of the only character in the story to this day not to fit those patterns. Carrot could be called a secondary character, yes, but NO, she had in fact MAJOR influence on the story, MAJOR moments, MAJOR emotional relevancy (proportionnaly to her characterization of course) and had A MAJOR presence in the story that NO character ever had without falling into one of those 11 categories.
Carrot is literally an alien in the story of One Piece
And that's what I'm screaming and trying to tell people since the beginning of my journey here and on Twitter. Her story is simply not normal in One Piece.. Its like Oda suddenly changed his entire process just to make Carrot.
And my explanation at the time is that it can only be explain because Carrot is destined to be a strawhat as only the strawhats are characterized that way.
But Oda prove me (for the moment) wrong.. so... WTF ???
What HAPPENED ??
Why this character (actually set of + Pedro) in the first place ??
This is an enigma and the reason why...............
.... This is wrong from beginning to end.
Not only is it untrue in theory or in the narrative but it also untrue in practice just as I explained previously.
The simple fact that a fanbase was created the moment Carrot appeared is significant enough to graps just how impactfull her character was. I STILL believe that her story was (or is ???) supposed to be much more.
Carrot has the most attribute to be a candidate and there were all the reason to believe that she would become a strawhat at the time. Its simply undeniable..
Or story slowed down - granted - but you can't act like the years during whole cake and the hype surrounding Carrot's was not present.
And just like I explained, this wasn't present because of no reason. There was an actual purpose behind this character...
And it was most likely a purpose having something to do with the fact of becoming a potential strawhat... an idea that seems to have disappear over time.
Carrot was narratively the best candidate in the last decade. From a narrative standpoint its simply undeniable.
-
Oh but you can lay down the laws if you are feeling brave... but you never EVER tells me the Rules !
I tell you what... its gonna be a whoppper !!
You want this thread back ?
THEN COME AND GET IT !!
Last edited:
Ok then...
First:
No. Oda NEVER fucked up with the audience. Unless, not like you might think. What he did with Yamato is only letting her express what her character in this situation would naturally express: which is to join the crew of Luffy. But Oda never said or promised that Yamato would join (you never had the foreshadow of a tiny hint of Yamato joining the crew) no.. Oda while letting Yamato express her desires actually showed up the opposite:
- He made Yamato stands with Momo
- He made Luffy missname Yamato
- He made Yamato have a conflict with Luffy just after the expression of the desire
- He made Jinbe question the joining of Yamato
- He made Yamato literally a reverse portrayal of Oden (which should have hinted clearly to the readers that Yamato is actually depicted as the opposite of Oden)
- He even hinted the fact that Yamato would become the guardian deity of Wano through the words of Kaido and his wish to make Yamato the shogun ruling over Wano.
But more that EVERYTHING else.. he created something that author uses OFTEN and that you guys are still oblivious too : the subversive affirmations.
In short, by corrupting a premisse of Yamato wanting to join the crew, Oda actually hinted in plain sight the fact that Yamato would actually NEVER join.
Subversive affirmations is something that author uses ALL THE TIME to create an inception into our readers minds that something might not happen the way we are told it will happen. Its a way to subconsciouly prepare the reader to the reality of an upcoming event.
So no, Oda never lied to you, or rather, yes he did. But Yamato ALWAYS was meant and technically depicted as not joining the crew.
SECOND..
Actually yes I CAN.
Its called the 5 golden rules and the 10 pillars.
5 Golden Rules being:
All of this to say that yes, we can say what constitute a Strawhat Nakama in the end of the day.
Now...
While I think that this model explain perfectly what constitute a good strawhat... and despite what I've been saying. Its not the best to predict. The reason is actually extremely simple and something I didn't even cared to think about since I wasn't thinking in the right order to begin with:
This system is NOT a prediction system, its a road map !
This means that EVERY strawhats will pass through one of those points, but the tricky part is that Oda being Oda, those point might not appear in the same order. And sometimes, those will appear just before the actual recruitment.
For example if we take Robin's example: she has an antagonistic introduction followed by multi layered characterization toward the end of Alabasta. There are also hints of symbolic reach and the hint of a tragedy and but there is not trace of other data. Now, if we take the moment Robin joins the crew for the first time, we can add 4 potential more points.. but at this time, Robin already joined, just not officially, so do we still need to search for clues ? Not really.
Other example, for Franky: Franky had the antagonistic introduction, some fair multi layared characterization, a good symbolic reach. based on those data, we can't really predict Franky as a future crewmate, unless we remembers taht Luffy drew him clearly at the beginning of the arc. We can therefore deduce that the story will focus on him and that he will have a tragedy and a character arc etc.. but again, that's not enough.. We can of course predict the majority of the pillar once the flashback of Franky ends (because of the elements of the flashback), but at this points its pretty obvious that Franky will join or is the best placed to join so the system is not relevant anymore..
The other simple example is Zoro. In reality every points here about Zoro appeared very rapidely, we didn't really had time to predict anything. Unless if we remembered the fact that Luffy predicted to recruit Zoro..
So in anyway.. the points don't really have a prediction value at least not in the way I intended them to have one. In that sence, people here were right. BUT its STILL relevant as a road map, meaning that now we can say that every POTENTIAL candidate will path through ALL those steps.
Now... If this system can't really predict anything, CAN WE predict anything ?
Well... Yes I still think so.. But I think that we are looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead for trying to confirm a candidate and therefore confirm a bias, we should do the opposite
I mean that instead of saying "how can we say that Bonney will join", the thing we should really ask ourself is rather: "How can we get rid of any possible other candidate ?"
While I tried to do that at first with the 5 golden rules. In reality, I discovered only what the strawhats had in common at the end of the line, not what they needed to have to be good potential candidate.
And here is why my story with Carrot is important:
I think that instead of looking at the post or a dream or anything like that, we should look at one core principle:
THE NARRATIVE POTENTIAL
--
What do I mean by narrative potential ? Well.. I mean by that ALL the little clues that could indicate that a character could be developping the 5 golden Rules and the 10 Pillars. And all of this can fall under one parameter :
THE PRESENCE OF PATTERNS
I've come to understand that One Piece is written by someone with clear narrative patterns in mind. Those pattern are repeated in situations and in the characters. Most of the times, those pattern serves narrative purposes. For example:
- At the beginning of an arc, the strawhats will most likely be separated. This will allow the story to adopt multiple point of view and to enhance the different thematics.
- The way battle are structured in One Piece is always going from the outside to the inside and from the less relevant battles for the story at the time to the most revelant one (being Luffy's one), this is why the battle of the strawhats will finish mostly first, then the two commanders (Sanji and Zoro will have their times) and then Luffy will have the finishing move sometimes in tandem with the fight of the arc main protagonist or equivalent. Its important as it creates a form of countdown toward the end of the arc and a way to keep things exciting yet predictive enough for the reader to expect the following of the fights.
- In stories were Luffy is supposed to have a clear end goal, there is a narrative pattern in the way Luffy is presented in the arc : at first he will be in the discovering phase, to him is presented the reason why he will fight to the death (most of the time because of an act of kindness from the native population) and the character he will fight for, then Luffy faces a series of challenges and he is progressively cut from the narration.. this is were the story progress on the characterization and the story of the main protagonists of said arc. (Nami, Vivi, Conis/Kyros, Ace, Shiraoshi, Rebecca, Momo), then.. when everything seems lost and we arrive to the point of the narration were everything needs to feels like there is no tomorrow, when its the end for those character and their vision or when they are at their lowest, then Luffy appears.. You should CLEARLY remember those moments, the way Oda structures his narration here (Lack of Luffy (either from the readers or the main antagonist) > characterization > hope lost > reappearance of Luffy) is very simple, but extremely efficient to create amazing emotional moments and this is what transform Luffy more and more into a real hero:
So.. patterns are important in One Piece, they shape a LOT the final story so I think we should look for them or RATHER... the impossibilities of such pattern in some characters.
For example, we can't expect a character like Raizo to have the same emotionnal range as a character like Momonosuke, the reason because Raizo has a lot of attribute of a secondary character that tends - in One Piece - not to evolve too much.. BUT its not the case for a character like Yamato when we first meet them..
In reality character like Yamato have an latent "narrative potential" meaning that they do not fit into any real categories and are therefore movable in the spectra of character.
Another example of that is Bonney, we can't expect Bonney to have the secondary characterization or the same characterization as character that have pattern of characterization closer to rivals (smoker / kids / Law ) so we know that she has a narrative potential in the arc and the question is therefore: "does this potential can lead toward the crew ?
In reality, not so much as Bonney also shares a lot of characterization patterns with the "princess" characters of One Piece (Momo / Vivi / Rebecca) as they all have big external struggles that do not really have something to do with the strawhats per say and more with their environment or situations. (which is different with Nami and Robin or Sanji as their internal conflict was directly connected to their relationship with the Strawhats and Luffy)
So....
To sum up a little bit, if we want to predict a character, we must look at their NARRATIVE POTENTIAL. Its not something that is evident and will in fact be something that will jump in your face or not. This is the potential for the development of the 5 golden rules and the 10 PIllars in the characters and this can be predicted if we look a bit closer to the pattern of the character.
What we must therefore do, is rule out every characters that have very similar pattern with:
- Tiersary character: they are the character that accompagny the secondary characters or the strawhats. Most of the time not implicated emotionnally in the story, there are characterized by a quirky personnality and a few emotions.
- Secondary characters (most of the times characterized by a few emotion pattern and one funny character trait), they can have a few good impactfull moments and they are related to the prince or princess by blood or friendship
- Rivals and ally (most of the time characterized by a deep "edgy" characterization material, those are the character that you will have hard time to find in funny characterization for example)
- Strong antagonist(s) (most of the times characterized by their oppressive traits and actions)
- The funny antagonist/Antagonist allies: Those are the allies of the antagonist(s), characterized mostly by a funny cahracter traits or physical traits.
- The treasure character: This is the character that will act nicely with Luffy and will be the reason why he fight. It will be most of the time an innocent character that will face a very hard reality
- The helper of the princes and princesses and ally: Those are the character that acts as the helper of the "prince and princesses", they will most of the time sacrifice themself for the sake of the cause or help Luffy or the strawhat move forward in the adventure
- The guide of the will: This will be one type of character that will help either the strawhats or have an effect on the prince and princesses and the Kings and hidden rulers to the point that they the conflict of the story is most of the type a result of their actions. They are characterized by a the fact that they are a vessel to deliver STRONG moral values.
- The Kings and hidden rulers : The characters that are usually characterized through their status and the fact that they will most often be incapable of acting, they will most often distribute key information at the end of the arc or be a way through which key information will be delivered.
- The "prince and princesses": Sometime the treasure cahracter also, its the character that Luffy will need to save in the arc and around which the theme of the arc will be developped. Its often the character with the best range of emotion and the character that will completely change.
- The members of the fleet: Those are specifically the captains of the fleets: They are characterized by their strong will and their complete, their absence of fear in front of danger and most of all, their independance. The two main characters of the fleet (Bartholomeo and Cavendish) have strong character arc as well.
As you can see... a character like Yamato is not obvious at the start of their journey, so they fit COMPLETELY the description of a character with huge narrative potential. Another character that fits this description right now are Vegapunk and Stussy. They both have immension narrative potential left, their story could go in a vast number of directions.
And... what this post made me finally realize is WHY I clearly choosed to focus on Carrot's character on the first place. I knew that she had a narrative potential, but I didn't really put word on it.
Its now done. Just like Yamato, you can see that Carrot ALSO have an amazing NARRATIVE POTENTIAL.
Carrot doesn't fit the regular patterns of Oda.. In fact she is one of the only character in the story to this day not to fit those patterns. Carrot could be called a secondary character, yes, but NO, she had in fact MAJOR influence on the story, MAJOR moments, MAJOR emotional relevancy (proportionnaly to her characterization of course) and had A MAJOR presence in the story that NO character ever had without falling into one of those 11 categories.
Carrot is literally an alien in the story of One Piece
And that's what I'm screaming and trying to tell people since the beginning of my journey here and on Twitter. Her story is simply not normal in One Piece.. Its like Oda suddenly changed his entire process just to make Carrot.
And my explanation at the time is that it can only be explain because Carrot is destined to be a strawhat as only the strawhats are characterized that way.
But Oda prove me (for the moment) wrong.. so... WTF ???
What HAPPENED ??
Why this character (actually set of + Pedro) in the first place ??
This is an enigma and the reason why...............
.... This is wrong from beginning to end.
Not only is it untrue in theory or in the narrative but it also untrue in practice just as I explained previously.
The simple fact that a fanbase was created the moment Carrot appeared is significant enough to graps just how impactfull her character was. I STILL believe that her story was (or is ???) supposed to be much more.
Carrot has the most attribute to be a candidate and there were all the reason to believe that she would become a strawhat at the time. Its simply undeniable..
Or story slowed down - granted - but you can't act like the years during whole cake and the hype surrounding Carrot's was not present.
And just like I explained, this wasn't present because of no reason. There was an actual purpose behind this character...
And it was most likely a purpose having something to do with the fact of becoming a potential strawhat... an idea that seems to have disappear over time.
Carrot was narratively the best candidate in the last decade. From a narrative standpoint its simply undeniable.
-
Oh but you can lay down the laws if you are feeling brave... but you never EVER tells me the Rules !
I tell you what... its gonna be a whoppper !!
You want this thread back ?
THEN COME AND GET IT !!
First:
No. Oda NEVER fucked up with the audience. Unless, not like you might think. What he did with Yamato is only letting her express what her character in this situation would naturally express: which is to join the crew of Luffy. But Oda never said or promised that Yamato would join (you never had the foreshadow of a tiny hint of Yamato joining the crew) no.. Oda while letting Yamato express her desires actually showed up the opposite:
- He made Yamato stands with Momo
- He made Luffy missname Yamato
- He made Yamato have a conflict with Luffy just after the expression of the desire
- He made Jinbe question the joining of Yamato
- He made Yamato literally a reverse portrayal of Oden (which should have hinted clearly to the readers that Yamato is actually depicted as the opposite of Oden)
- He even hinted the fact that Yamato would become the guardian deity of Wano through the words of Kaido and his wish to make Yamato the shogun ruling over Wano.
But more that EVERYTHING else.. he created something that author uses OFTEN and that you guys are still oblivious too : the subversive affirmations.
In short, by corrupting a premisse of Yamato wanting to join the crew, Oda actually hinted in plain sight the fact that Yamato would actually NEVER join.
Subversive affirmations is something that author uses ALL THE TIME to create an inception into our readers minds that something might not happen the way we are told it will happen. Its a way to subconsciouly prepare the reader to the reality of an upcoming event.
So no, Oda never lied to you, or rather, yes he did. But Yamato ALWAYS was meant and technically depicted as not joining the crew.
SECOND..
Actually yes I CAN.
Its called the 5 golden rules and the 10 pillars.
5 Golden Rules being:
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story
- Be unique and have a unique ability
- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Have a guide of the will
- The Antagonistic introduction.
- The Multi layered characterization.
- The Symbolic reach.
- A Strong character arc.
- Hint of the 2 driving forces.
- The Rescue.
- A Tragedy.
- The Double Nakama link.
- The Post.
- The Shining Nakama Action.
All of this to say that yes, we can say what constitute a Strawhat Nakama in the end of the day.
Now...
While I think that this model explain perfectly what constitute a good strawhat... and despite what I've been saying. Its not the best to predict. The reason is actually extremely simple and something I didn't even cared to think about since I wasn't thinking in the right order to begin with:
This system is NOT a prediction system, its a road map !
This means that EVERY strawhats will pass through one of those points, but the tricky part is that Oda being Oda, those point might not appear in the same order. And sometimes, those will appear just before the actual recruitment.
For example if we take Robin's example: she has an antagonistic introduction followed by multi layered characterization toward the end of Alabasta. There are also hints of symbolic reach and the hint of a tragedy and but there is not trace of other data. Now, if we take the moment Robin joins the crew for the first time, we can add 4 potential more points.. but at this time, Robin already joined, just not officially, so do we still need to search for clues ? Not really.
Other example, for Franky: Franky had the antagonistic introduction, some fair multi layared characterization, a good symbolic reach. based on those data, we can't really predict Franky as a future crewmate, unless we remembers taht Luffy drew him clearly at the beginning of the arc. We can therefore deduce that the story will focus on him and that he will have a tragedy and a character arc etc.. but again, that's not enough.. We can of course predict the majority of the pillar once the flashback of Franky ends (because of the elements of the flashback), but at this points its pretty obvious that Franky will join or is the best placed to join so the system is not relevant anymore..
The other simple example is Zoro. In reality every points here about Zoro appeared very rapidely, we didn't really had time to predict anything. Unless if we remembered the fact that Luffy predicted to recruit Zoro..
So in anyway.. the points don't really have a prediction value at least not in the way I intended them to have one. In that sence, people here were right. BUT its STILL relevant as a road map, meaning that now we can say that every POTENTIAL candidate will path through ALL those steps.
Now... If this system can't really predict anything, CAN WE predict anything ?
Well... Yes I still think so.. But I think that we are looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead for trying to confirm a candidate and therefore confirm a bias, we should do the opposite
I mean that instead of saying "how can we say that Bonney will join", the thing we should really ask ourself is rather: "How can we get rid of any possible other candidate ?"
While I tried to do that at first with the 5 golden rules. In reality, I discovered only what the strawhats had in common at the end of the line, not what they needed to have to be good potential candidate.
And here is why my story with Carrot is important:
I think that instead of looking at the post or a dream or anything like that, we should look at one core principle:
THE NARRATIVE POTENTIAL
--
What do I mean by narrative potential ? Well.. I mean by that ALL the little clues that could indicate that a character could be developping the 5 golden Rules and the 10 Pillars. And all of this can fall under one parameter :
THE PRESENCE OF PATTERNS
I've come to understand that One Piece is written by someone with clear narrative patterns in mind. Those pattern are repeated in situations and in the characters. Most of the times, those pattern serves narrative purposes. For example:
- At the beginning of an arc, the strawhats will most likely be separated. This will allow the story to adopt multiple point of view and to enhance the different thematics.
- The way battle are structured in One Piece is always going from the outside to the inside and from the less relevant battles for the story at the time to the most revelant one (being Luffy's one), this is why the battle of the strawhats will finish mostly first, then the two commanders (Sanji and Zoro will have their times) and then Luffy will have the finishing move sometimes in tandem with the fight of the arc main protagonist or equivalent. Its important as it creates a form of countdown toward the end of the arc and a way to keep things exciting yet predictive enough for the reader to expect the following of the fights.
- In stories were Luffy is supposed to have a clear end goal, there is a narrative pattern in the way Luffy is presented in the arc : at first he will be in the discovering phase, to him is presented the reason why he will fight to the death (most of the time because of an act of kindness from the native population) and the character he will fight for, then Luffy faces a series of challenges and he is progressively cut from the narration.. this is were the story progress on the characterization and the story of the main protagonists of said arc. (Nami, Vivi, Conis/Kyros, Ace, Shiraoshi, Rebecca, Momo), then.. when everything seems lost and we arrive to the point of the narration were everything needs to feels like there is no tomorrow, when its the end for those character and their vision or when they are at their lowest, then Luffy appears.. You should CLEARLY remember those moments, the way Oda structures his narration here (Lack of Luffy (either from the readers or the main antagonist) > characterization > hope lost > reappearance of Luffy) is very simple, but extremely efficient to create amazing emotional moments and this is what transform Luffy more and more into a real hero:
So.. patterns are important in One Piece, they shape a LOT the final story so I think we should look for them or RATHER... the impossibilities of such pattern in some characters.
For example, we can't expect a character like Raizo to have the same emotionnal range as a character like Momonosuke, the reason because Raizo has a lot of attribute of a secondary character that tends - in One Piece - not to evolve too much.. BUT its not the case for a character like Yamato when we first meet them..
In reality character like Yamato have an latent "narrative potential" meaning that they do not fit into any real categories and are therefore movable in the spectra of character.
Another example of that is Bonney, we can't expect Bonney to have the secondary characterization or the same characterization as character that have pattern of characterization closer to rivals (smoker / kids / Law ) so we know that she has a narrative potential in the arc and the question is therefore: "does this potential can lead toward the crew ?
In reality, not so much as Bonney also shares a lot of characterization patterns with the "princess" characters of One Piece (Momo / Vivi / Rebecca) as they all have big external struggles that do not really have something to do with the strawhats per say and more with their environment or situations. (which is different with Nami and Robin or Sanji as their internal conflict was directly connected to their relationship with the Strawhats and Luffy)
So....
To sum up a little bit, if we want to predict a character, we must look at their NARRATIVE POTENTIAL. Its not something that is evident and will in fact be something that will jump in your face or not. This is the potential for the development of the 5 golden rules and the 10 PIllars in the characters and this can be predicted if we look a bit closer to the pattern of the character.
What we must therefore do, is rule out every characters that have very similar pattern with:
- Tiersary character: they are the character that accompagny the secondary characters or the strawhats. Most of the time not implicated emotionnally in the story, there are characterized by a quirky personnality and a few emotions.
- Secondary characters (most of the times characterized by a few emotion pattern and one funny character trait), they can have a few good impactfull moments and they are related to the prince or princess by blood or friendship
- Rivals and ally (most of the time characterized by a deep "edgy" characterization material, those are the character that you will have hard time to find in funny characterization for example)
- Strong antagonist(s) (most of the times characterized by their oppressive traits and actions)
- The funny antagonist/Antagonist allies: Those are the allies of the antagonist(s), characterized mostly by a funny cahracter traits or physical traits.
- The treasure character: This is the character that will act nicely with Luffy and will be the reason why he fight. It will be most of the time an innocent character that will face a very hard reality
- The helper of the princes and princesses and ally: Those are the character that acts as the helper of the "prince and princesses", they will most of the time sacrifice themself for the sake of the cause or help Luffy or the strawhat move forward in the adventure
- The guide of the will: This will be one type of character that will help either the strawhats or have an effect on the prince and princesses and the Kings and hidden rulers to the point that they the conflict of the story is most of the type a result of their actions. They are characterized by a the fact that they are a vessel to deliver STRONG moral values.
- The Kings and hidden rulers : The characters that are usually characterized through their status and the fact that they will most often be incapable of acting, they will most often distribute key information at the end of the arc or be a way through which key information will be delivered.
- The "prince and princesses": Sometime the treasure cahracter also, its the character that Luffy will need to save in the arc and around which the theme of the arc will be developped. Its often the character with the best range of emotion and the character that will completely change.
- The members of the fleet: Those are specifically the captains of the fleets: They are characterized by their strong will and their complete, their absence of fear in front of danger and most of all, their independance. The two main characters of the fleet (Bartholomeo and Cavendish) have strong character arc as well.
As you can see... a character like Yamato is not obvious at the start of their journey, so they fit COMPLETELY the description of a character with huge narrative potential. Another character that fits this description right now are Vegapunk and Stussy. They both have immension narrative potential left, their story could go in a vast number of directions.
And... what this post made me finally realize is WHY I clearly choosed to focus on Carrot's character on the first place. I knew that she had a narrative potential, but I didn't really put word on it.
Its now done. Just like Yamato, you can see that Carrot ALSO have an amazing NARRATIVE POTENTIAL.
Carrot doesn't fit the regular patterns of Oda.. In fact she is one of the only character in the story to this day not to fit those patterns. Carrot could be called a secondary character, yes, but NO, she had in fact MAJOR influence on the story, MAJOR moments, MAJOR emotional relevancy (proportionnaly to her characterization of course) and had A MAJOR presence in the story that NO character ever had without falling into one of those 11 categories.
Carrot is literally an alien in the story of One Piece
And that's what I'm screaming and trying to tell people since the beginning of my journey here and on Twitter. Her story is simply not normal in One Piece.. Its like Oda suddenly changed his entire process just to make Carrot.
And my explanation at the time is that it can only be explain because Carrot is destined to be a strawhat as only the strawhats are characterized that way.
But Oda prove me (for the moment) wrong.. so... WTF ???
What HAPPENED ??
Why this character (actually set of + Pedro) in the first place ??
This is an enigma and the reason why...............
.... This is wrong from beginning to end.
Not only is it untrue in theory or in the narrative but it also untrue in practice just as I explained previously.
The simple fact that a fanbase was created the moment Carrot appeared is significant enough to graps just how impactfull her character was. I STILL believe that her story was (or is ???) supposed to be much more.
Carrot has the most attribute to be a candidate and there were all the reason to believe that she would become a strawhat at the time. Its simply undeniable..
Or story slowed down - granted - but you can't act like the years during whole cake and the hype surrounding Carrot's was not present.
And just like I explained, this wasn't present because of no reason. There was an actual purpose behind this character...
And it was most likely a purpose having something to do with the fact of becoming a potential strawhat... an idea that seems to have disappear over time.
Carrot was narratively the best candidate in the last decade. From a narrative standpoint its simply undeniable.
-
Oh but you can lay down the laws if you are feeling brave... but you never EVER tells me the Rules !
I tell you what... its gonna be a whoppper !!
You want this thread back ?
THEN COME AND GET IT !!
Not to beat a dead horse but I also find it interesting how outside of a golden aged Coney, Bonney has rarely had consistent positive adult female role models in her life since her Mother whom she never knew sadly passed at her birth.
Perhaps another coincidence but she has yet to spend much time with Nami and Robin this arc. Which is arguably to her benefit, since she's not being pawned off as needing a babysitter.
She's right in the thick of these conflicts which sets her apart from past kids with narrative importance. Momo doesn't gain agency until the climax of Wano for example, Tama needs later to provide assistance outside of plot devices etc. A bulk of Bonney's experience of who the strawhats are are with Luffy and Chopper. (Funny enough, Zoro before anyone)
But could experiencing positive interactions and insights dare I say inspiration from female role models be something Oda could be interested in seeing developed for the rest of the series? Particularly by two Women who also know what it's like to lose a Mother and be raised in a harsh world of men. It definitely would supplant of adding another female character for more complex narrative decisions than mere fan service as past presume candidates have been.
But I digress.
Perhaps another coincidence but she has yet to spend much time with Nami and Robin this arc. Which is arguably to her benefit, since she's not being pawned off as needing a babysitter.
She's right in the thick of these conflicts which sets her apart from past kids with narrative importance. Momo doesn't gain agency until the climax of Wano for example, Tama needs later to provide assistance outside of plot devices etc. A bulk of Bonney's experience of who the strawhats are are with Luffy and Chopper. (Funny enough, Zoro before anyone)
But could experiencing positive interactions and insights dare I say inspiration from female role models be something Oda could be interested in seeing developed for the rest of the series? Particularly by two Women who also know what it's like to lose a Mother and be raised in a harsh world of men. It definitely would supplant of adding another female character for more complex narrative decisions than mere fan service as past presume candidates have been.
But I digress.
Ok then...
First:
No. Oda NEVER fucked up with the audience. Unless, not like you might think. What he did with Yamato is only letting her express what her character in this situation would naturally express: which is to join the crew of Luffy. But Oda never said or promised that Yamato would join (you never had the foreshadow of a tiny hint of Yamato joining the crew) no.. Oda while letting Yamato express her desires actually showed up the opposite:
- He made Yamato stands with Momo
- He made Luffy missname Yamato
- He made Yamato have a conflict with Luffy just after the expression of the desire
- He made Jinbe question the joining of Yamato
- He made Yamato literally a reverse portrayal of Oden (which should have hinted clearly to the readers that Yamato is actually depicted as the opposite of Oden)
- He even hinted the fact that Yamato would become the guardian deity of Wano through the words of Kaido and his wish to make Yamato the shogun ruling over Wano.
But more that EVERYTHING else.. he created something that author uses OFTEN and that you guys are still oblivious too : the subversive affirmations.
In short, by corrupting a premisse of Yamato wanting to join the crew, Oda actually hinted in plain sight the fact that Yamato would actually NEVER join.
Subversive affirmations is something that author uses ALL THE TIME to create an inception into our readers minds that something might not happen the way we are told it will happen. Its a way to subconsciouly prepare the reader to the reality of an upcoming event.
So no, Oda never lied to you, or rather, yes he did. But Yamato ALWAYS was meant and technically depicted as not joining the crew.
SECOND..
Actually yes I CAN.
Its called the 5 golden rules and the 10 pillars.
5 Golden Rules being:
All of this to say that yes, we can say what constitute a Strawhat Nakama in the end of the day.
Now...
While I think that this model explain perfectly what constitute a good strawhat... and despite what I've been saying. Its not the best to predict. The reason is actually extremely simple and something I didn't even cared to think about since I wasn't thinking in the right order to begin with:
This system is NOT a prediction system, its a road map !
This means that EVERY strawhats will pass through one of those points, but the tricky part is that Oda being Oda, those point might not appear in the same order. And sometimes, those will appear just before the actual recruitment.
For example if we take Robin's example: she has an antagonistic introduction followed by multi layered characterization toward the end of Alabasta. There are also hints of symbolic reach and the hint of a tragedy and but there is not trace of other data. Now, if we take the moment Robin joins the crew for the first time, we can add 4 potential more points.. but at this time, Robin already joined, just not officially, so do we still need to search for clues ? Not really.
Other example, for Franky: Franky had the antagonistic introduction, some fair multi layared characterization, a good symbolic reach. based on those data, we can't really predict Franky as a future crewmate, unless we remembers taht Luffy drew him clearly at the beginning of the arc. We can therefore deduce that the story will focus on him and that he will have a tragedy and a character arc etc.. but again, that's not enough.. We can of course predict the majority of the pillar once the flashback of Franky ends (because of the elements of the flashback), but at this points its pretty obvious that Franky will join or is the best placed to join so the system is not relevant anymore..
The other simple example is Zoro. In reality every points here about Zoro appeared very rapidely, we didn't really had time to predict anything. Unless if we remembered the fact that Luffy predicted to recruit Zoro..
So in anyway.. the points don't really have a prediction value at least not in the way I intended them to have one. In that sence, people here were right. BUT its STILL relevant as a road map, meaning that now we can say that every POTENTIAL candidate will path through ALL those steps.
Now... If this system can't really predict anything, CAN WE predict anything ?
Well... Yes I still think so.. But I think that we are looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead for trying to confirm a candidate and therefore confirm a bias, we should do the opposite
I mean that instead of saying "how can we say that Bonney will join", the thing we should really ask ourself is rather: "How can we get rid of any possible other candidate ?"
While I tried to do that at first with the 5 golden rules. In reality, I discovered only what the strawhats had in common at the end of the line, not what they needed to have to be good potential candidate.
And here is why my story with Carrot is important:
I think that instead of looking at the post or a dream or anything like that, we should look at one core principle:
THE NARRATIVE POTENTIAL
--
What do I mean by narrative potential ? Well.. I mean by that ALL the little clues that could indicate that a character could be developping the 5 golden Rules and the 10 Pillars. And all of this can fall under one parameter :
THE PRESENCE OF PATTERNS
I've come to understand that One Piece is written by someone with clear narrative patterns in mind. Those pattern are repeated in situations and in the characters. Most of the times, those pattern serves narrative purposes. For example:
- At the beginning of an arc, the strawhats will most likely be separated. This will allow the story to adopt multiple point of view and to enhance the different thematics.
- The way battle are structured in One Piece is always going from the outside to the inside and from the less relevant battles for the story at the time to the most revelant one (being Luffy's one), this is why the battle of the strawhats will finish mostly first, then the two commanders (Sanji and Zoro will have their times) and then Luffy will have the finishing move sometimes in tandem with the fight of the arc main protagonist or equivalent. Its important as it creates a form of countdown toward the end of the arc and a way to keep things exciting yet predictive enough for the reader to expect the following of the fights.
- In stories were Luffy is supposed to have a clear end goal, there is a narrative pattern in the way Luffy is presented in the arc : at first he will be in the discovering phase, to him is presented the reason why he will fight to the death (most of the time because of an act of kindness from the native population) and the character he will fight for, then Luffy faces a series of challenges and he is progressively cut from the narration.. this is were the story progress on the characterization and the story of the main protagonists of said arc. (Nami, Vivi, Conis/Kyros, Ace, Shiraoshi, Rebecca, Momo), then.. when everything seems lost and we arrive to the point of the narration were everything needs to feels like there is no tomorrow, when its the end for those character and their vision or when they are at their lowest, then Luffy appears.. You should CLEARLY remember those moments, the way Oda structures his narration here (Lack of Luffy (either from the readers or the main antagonist) > characterization > hope lost > reappearance of Luffy) is very simple, but extremely efficient to create amazing emotional moments and this is what transform Luffy more and more into a real hero:
So.. patterns are important in One Piece, they shape a LOT the final story so I think we should look for them or RATHER... the impossibilities of such pattern in some characters.
For example, we can't expect a character like Raizo to have the same emotionnal range as a character like Momonosuke, the reason because Raizo has a lot of attribute of a secondary character that tends - in One Piece - not to evolve too much.. BUT its not the case for a character like Yamato when we first meet them..
In reality character like Yamato have an latent "narrative potential" meaning that they do not fit into any real categories and are therefore movable in the spectra of character.
Another example of that is Bonney, we can't expect Bonney to have the secondary characterization or the same characterization as character that have pattern of characterization closer to rivals (smoker / kids / Law ) so we know that she has a narrative potential in the arc and the question is therefore: "does this potential can lead toward the crew ?
In reality, not so much as Bonney also shares a lot of characterization patterns with the "princess" characters of One Piece (Momo / Vivi / Rebecca) as they all have big external struggles that do not really have something to do with the strawhats per say and more with their environment or situations. (which is different with Nami and Robin or Sanji as their internal conflict was directly connected to their relationship with the Strawhats and Luffy)
So....
To sum up a little bit, if we want to predict a character, we must look at their NARRATIVE POTENTIAL. Its not something that is evident and will in fact be something that will jump in your face or not. This is the potential for the development of the 5 golden rules and the 10 PIllars in the characters and this can be predicted if we look a bit closer to the pattern of the character.
What we must therefore do, is rule out every characters that have very similar pattern with:
- Tiersary character: they are the character that accompagny the secondary characters or the strawhats. Most of the time not implicated emotionnally in the story, there are characterized by a quirky personnality and a few emotions.
- Secondary characters (most of the times characterized by a few emotion pattern and one funny character trait), they can have a few good impactfull moments and they are related to the prince or princess by blood or friendship
- Rivals and ally (most of the time characterized by a deep "edgy" characterization material, those are the character that you will have hard time to find in funny characterization for example)
- Strong antagonist(s) (most of the times characterized by their oppressive traits and actions)
- The funny antagonist/Antagonist allies: Those are the allies of the antagonist(s), characterized mostly by a funny cahracter traits or physical traits.
- The treasure character: This is the character that will act nicely with Luffy and will be the reason why he fight. It will be most of the time an innocent character that will face a very hard reality
- The helper of the princes and princesses and ally: Those are the character that acts as the helper of the "prince and princesses", they will most of the time sacrifice themself for the sake of the cause or help Luffy or the strawhat move forward in the adventure
- The guide of the will: This will be one type of character that will help either the strawhats or have an effect on the prince and princesses and the Kings and hidden rulers to the point that they the conflict of the story is most of the type a result of their actions. They are characterized by a the fact that they are a vessel to deliver STRONG moral values.
- The Kings and hidden rulers : The characters that are usually characterized through their status and the fact that they will most often be incapable of acting, they will most often distribute key information at the end of the arc or be a way through which key information will be delivered.
- The "prince and princesses": Sometime the treasure cahracter also, its the character that Luffy will need to save in the arc and around which the theme of the arc will be developped. Its often the character with the best range of emotion and the character that will completely change.
- The members of the fleet: Those are specifically the captains of the fleets: They are characterized by their strong will and their complete absence of fear in front of danger and most of all, their independance. The two main characters of the fleet (Bartholomeo and Cavendish) have strong character arc as well.
As you can see... a character like Yamato is not obvious at the start of their journey, so they fit COMPLETELY the description of a character with huge narrative potential. Another character that fits this description right now are Vegapunk and Stussy. They both have immension narrative potential left, their story could go in a vast number of directions.
And... what this post made me finally realize is WHY I clearly choosed to focus on Carrot's character on the first place. I knew that she had a narrative potential, but I didn't really put word on it.
Its now done. Just like Yamato, you can see that Carrot ALSO have an amazing NARRATIVE POTENTIAL.
Carrot doesn't fit the regular patterns of Oda.. In fact she is one of the only character in the story to this day not to fit those patterns. Carrot could be called a secondary character, yes, but NO, she had in fact MAJOR influence on the story, MAJOR moments, MAJOR emotional relevancy (proportionnaly to her characterization of course) and had A MAJOR presence in the story that NO character ever had without falling into one of those 11 categories.
Carrot is literally an alien in the story of One Piece
And that's what I'm screaming and trying to tell people since the beginning of my journey here and on Twitter. Her story is simply not normal in One Piece.. Its like Oda suddenly changed his entire process just to make Carrot.
And my explanation at the time is that it can only be explain because Carrot is destined to be a strawhat as only the strawhats are characterized that way.
But Oda prove me (for the moment) wrong.. so... WTF ???
What HAPPENED ??
Why this character (actually set of + Pedro) in the first place ??
This is an enigma and the reason why...............
.... This is wrong from beginning to end.
Not only is it untrue in theory or in the narrative but it also untrue in practice just as I explained previously.
The simple fact that a fanbase was created the moment Carrot appeared is significant enough to graps just how impactfull her character was. I STILL believe that her story was (or is ???) supposed to be much more.
Carrot has the most attribute to be a candidate and there were all the reason to believe that she would become a strawhat at the time. Its simply undeniable..
Or story slowed down - granted - but you can't act like the years during whole cake and the hype surrounding Carrot's was not present.
And just like I explained, this wasn't present because of no reason. There was an actual purpose behind this character...
And it was most likely a purpose having something to do with the fact of becoming a potential strawhat... an idea that seems to have disappear over time.
Carrot was narratively the best candidate in the last decade. From a narrative standpoint its simply undeniable.
-
Oh but you can lay down the laws if you are feeling brave... but you never EVER tells me the Rules !
I tell you what... its gonna be a whoppper !!
You want this thread back ?
THEN COME AND GET IT !!
First:
No. Oda NEVER fucked up with the audience. Unless, not like you might think. What he did with Yamato is only letting her express what her character in this situation would naturally express: which is to join the crew of Luffy. But Oda never said or promised that Yamato would join (you never had the foreshadow of a tiny hint of Yamato joining the crew) no.. Oda while letting Yamato express her desires actually showed up the opposite:
- He made Yamato stands with Momo
- He made Luffy missname Yamato
- He made Yamato have a conflict with Luffy just after the expression of the desire
- He made Jinbe question the joining of Yamato
- He made Yamato literally a reverse portrayal of Oden (which should have hinted clearly to the readers that Yamato is actually depicted as the opposite of Oden)
- He even hinted the fact that Yamato would become the guardian deity of Wano through the words of Kaido and his wish to make Yamato the shogun ruling over Wano.
But more that EVERYTHING else.. he created something that author uses OFTEN and that you guys are still oblivious too : the subversive affirmations.
In short, by corrupting a premisse of Yamato wanting to join the crew, Oda actually hinted in plain sight the fact that Yamato would actually NEVER join.
Subversive affirmations is something that author uses ALL THE TIME to create an inception into our readers minds that something might not happen the way we are told it will happen. Its a way to subconsciouly prepare the reader to the reality of an upcoming event.
So no, Oda never lied to you, or rather, yes he did. But Yamato ALWAYS was meant and technically depicted as not joining the crew.
SECOND..
Actually yes I CAN.
Its called the 5 golden rules and the 10 pillars.
5 Golden Rules being:
- Be alive
- Be relevant to the story
- Be unique and have a unique ability
- Be a friend or a false adversary
- Have a guide of the will
- The Antagonistic introduction.
- The Multi layered characterization.
- The Symbolic reach.
- A Strong character arc.
- Hint of the 2 driving forces.
- The Rescue.
- A Tragedy.
- The Double Nakama link.
- The Post.
- The Shining Nakama Action.
All of this to say that yes, we can say what constitute a Strawhat Nakama in the end of the day.
Now...
While I think that this model explain perfectly what constitute a good strawhat... and despite what I've been saying. Its not the best to predict. The reason is actually extremely simple and something I didn't even cared to think about since I wasn't thinking in the right order to begin with:
This system is NOT a prediction system, its a road map !
This means that EVERY strawhats will pass through one of those points, but the tricky part is that Oda being Oda, those point might not appear in the same order. And sometimes, those will appear just before the actual recruitment.
For example if we take Robin's example: she has an antagonistic introduction followed by multi layered characterization toward the end of Alabasta. There are also hints of symbolic reach and the hint of a tragedy and but there is not trace of other data. Now, if we take the moment Robin joins the crew for the first time, we can add 4 potential more points.. but at this time, Robin already joined, just not officially, so do we still need to search for clues ? Not really.
Other example, for Franky: Franky had the antagonistic introduction, some fair multi layared characterization, a good symbolic reach. based on those data, we can't really predict Franky as a future crewmate, unless we remembers taht Luffy drew him clearly at the beginning of the arc. We can therefore deduce that the story will focus on him and that he will have a tragedy and a character arc etc.. but again, that's not enough.. We can of course predict the majority of the pillar once the flashback of Franky ends (because of the elements of the flashback), but at this points its pretty obvious that Franky will join or is the best placed to join so the system is not relevant anymore..
The other simple example is Zoro. In reality every points here about Zoro appeared very rapidely, we didn't really had time to predict anything. Unless if we remembered the fact that Luffy predicted to recruit Zoro..
So in anyway.. the points don't really have a prediction value at least not in the way I intended them to have one. In that sence, people here were right. BUT its STILL relevant as a road map, meaning that now we can say that every POTENTIAL candidate will path through ALL those steps.
Now... If this system can't really predict anything, CAN WE predict anything ?
Well... Yes I still think so.. But I think that we are looking at the problem the wrong way. Instead for trying to confirm a candidate and therefore confirm a bias, we should do the opposite
I mean that instead of saying "how can we say that Bonney will join", the thing we should really ask ourself is rather: "How can we get rid of any possible other candidate ?"
While I tried to do that at first with the 5 golden rules. In reality, I discovered only what the strawhats had in common at the end of the line, not what they needed to have to be good potential candidate.
And here is why my story with Carrot is important:
I think that instead of looking at the post or a dream or anything like that, we should look at one core principle:
THE NARRATIVE POTENTIAL
--
What do I mean by narrative potential ? Well.. I mean by that ALL the little clues that could indicate that a character could be developping the 5 golden Rules and the 10 Pillars. And all of this can fall under one parameter :
THE PRESENCE OF PATTERNS
I've come to understand that One Piece is written by someone with clear narrative patterns in mind. Those pattern are repeated in situations and in the characters. Most of the times, those pattern serves narrative purposes. For example:
- At the beginning of an arc, the strawhats will most likely be separated. This will allow the story to adopt multiple point of view and to enhance the different thematics.
- The way battle are structured in One Piece is always going from the outside to the inside and from the less relevant battles for the story at the time to the most revelant one (being Luffy's one), this is why the battle of the strawhats will finish mostly first, then the two commanders (Sanji and Zoro will have their times) and then Luffy will have the finishing move sometimes in tandem with the fight of the arc main protagonist or equivalent. Its important as it creates a form of countdown toward the end of the arc and a way to keep things exciting yet predictive enough for the reader to expect the following of the fights.
- In stories were Luffy is supposed to have a clear end goal, there is a narrative pattern in the way Luffy is presented in the arc : at first he will be in the discovering phase, to him is presented the reason why he will fight to the death (most of the time because of an act of kindness from the native population) and the character he will fight for, then Luffy faces a series of challenges and he is progressively cut from the narration.. this is were the story progress on the characterization and the story of the main protagonists of said arc. (Nami, Vivi, Conis/Kyros, Ace, Shiraoshi, Rebecca, Momo), then.. when everything seems lost and we arrive to the point of the narration were everything needs to feels like there is no tomorrow, when its the end for those character and their vision or when they are at their lowest, then Luffy appears.. You should CLEARLY remember those moments, the way Oda structures his narration here (Lack of Luffy (either from the readers or the main antagonist) > characterization > hope lost > reappearance of Luffy) is very simple, but extremely efficient to create amazing emotional moments and this is what transform Luffy more and more into a real hero:
So.. patterns are important in One Piece, they shape a LOT the final story so I think we should look for them or RATHER... the impossibilities of such pattern in some characters.
For example, we can't expect a character like Raizo to have the same emotionnal range as a character like Momonosuke, the reason because Raizo has a lot of attribute of a secondary character that tends - in One Piece - not to evolve too much.. BUT its not the case for a character like Yamato when we first meet them..
In reality character like Yamato have an latent "narrative potential" meaning that they do not fit into any real categories and are therefore movable in the spectra of character.
Another example of that is Bonney, we can't expect Bonney to have the secondary characterization or the same characterization as character that have pattern of characterization closer to rivals (smoker / kids / Law ) so we know that she has a narrative potential in the arc and the question is therefore: "does this potential can lead toward the crew ?
In reality, not so much as Bonney also shares a lot of characterization patterns with the "princess" characters of One Piece (Momo / Vivi / Rebecca) as they all have big external struggles that do not really have something to do with the strawhats per say and more with their environment or situations. (which is different with Nami and Robin or Sanji as their internal conflict was directly connected to their relationship with the Strawhats and Luffy)
So....
To sum up a little bit, if we want to predict a character, we must look at their NARRATIVE POTENTIAL. Its not something that is evident and will in fact be something that will jump in your face or not. This is the potential for the development of the 5 golden rules and the 10 PIllars in the characters and this can be predicted if we look a bit closer to the pattern of the character.
What we must therefore do, is rule out every characters that have very similar pattern with:
- Tiersary character: they are the character that accompagny the secondary characters or the strawhats. Most of the time not implicated emotionnally in the story, there are characterized by a quirky personnality and a few emotions.
- Secondary characters (most of the times characterized by a few emotion pattern and one funny character trait), they can have a few good impactfull moments and they are related to the prince or princess by blood or friendship
- Rivals and ally (most of the time characterized by a deep "edgy" characterization material, those are the character that you will have hard time to find in funny characterization for example)
- Strong antagonist(s) (most of the times characterized by their oppressive traits and actions)
- The funny antagonist/Antagonist allies: Those are the allies of the antagonist(s), characterized mostly by a funny cahracter traits or physical traits.
- The treasure character: This is the character that will act nicely with Luffy and will be the reason why he fight. It will be most of the time an innocent character that will face a very hard reality
- The helper of the princes and princesses and ally: Those are the character that acts as the helper of the "prince and princesses", they will most of the time sacrifice themself for the sake of the cause or help Luffy or the strawhat move forward in the adventure
- The guide of the will: This will be one type of character that will help either the strawhats or have an effect on the prince and princesses and the Kings and hidden rulers to the point that they the conflict of the story is most of the type a result of their actions. They are characterized by a the fact that they are a vessel to deliver STRONG moral values.
- The Kings and hidden rulers : The characters that are usually characterized through their status and the fact that they will most often be incapable of acting, they will most often distribute key information at the end of the arc or be a way through which key information will be delivered.
- The "prince and princesses": Sometime the treasure cahracter also, its the character that Luffy will need to save in the arc and around which the theme of the arc will be developped. Its often the character with the best range of emotion and the character that will completely change.
- The members of the fleet: Those are specifically the captains of the fleets: They are characterized by their strong will and their complete absence of fear in front of danger and most of all, their independance. The two main characters of the fleet (Bartholomeo and Cavendish) have strong character arc as well.
As you can see... a character like Yamato is not obvious at the start of their journey, so they fit COMPLETELY the description of a character with huge narrative potential. Another character that fits this description right now are Vegapunk and Stussy. They both have immension narrative potential left, their story could go in a vast number of directions.
And... what this post made me finally realize is WHY I clearly choosed to focus on Carrot's character on the first place. I knew that she had a narrative potential, but I didn't really put word on it.
Its now done. Just like Yamato, you can see that Carrot ALSO have an amazing NARRATIVE POTENTIAL.
Carrot doesn't fit the regular patterns of Oda.. In fact she is one of the only character in the story to this day not to fit those patterns. Carrot could be called a secondary character, yes, but NO, she had in fact MAJOR influence on the story, MAJOR moments, MAJOR emotional relevancy (proportionnaly to her characterization of course) and had A MAJOR presence in the story that NO character ever had without falling into one of those 11 categories.
Carrot is literally an alien in the story of One Piece
And that's what I'm screaming and trying to tell people since the beginning of my journey here and on Twitter. Her story is simply not normal in One Piece.. Its like Oda suddenly changed his entire process just to make Carrot.
And my explanation at the time is that it can only be explain because Carrot is destined to be a strawhat as only the strawhats are characterized that way.
But Oda prove me (for the moment) wrong.. so... WTF ???
What HAPPENED ??
Why this character (actually set of + Pedro) in the first place ??
This is an enigma and the reason why...............
.... This is wrong from beginning to end.
Not only is it untrue in theory or in the narrative but it also untrue in practice just as I explained previously.
The simple fact that a fanbase was created the moment Carrot appeared is significant enough to graps just how impactfull her character was. I STILL believe that her story was (or is ???) supposed to be much more.
Carrot has the most attribute to be a candidate and there were all the reason to believe that she would become a strawhat at the time. Its simply undeniable..
Or story slowed down - granted - but you can't act like the years during whole cake and the hype surrounding Carrot's was not present.
And just like I explained, this wasn't present because of no reason. There was an actual purpose behind this character...
And it was most likely a purpose having something to do with the fact of becoming a potential strawhat... an idea that seems to have disappear over time.
Carrot was narratively the best candidate in the last decade. From a narrative standpoint its simply undeniable.
-
Oh but you can lay down the laws if you are feeling brave... but you never EVER tells me the Rules !
I tell you what... its gonna be a whoppper !!
You want this thread back ?
THEN COME AND GET IT !!
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