Character Discussion Kizaru and Saturn are not "weak" nor a "Letdown"

#1
So there seems to be some sort of misconception floating around here that due to Kizaru and Saturn's showing so far on Egghead, that it constitutes regarding them as characters who are to be considered a "letdown". Now if you look at how past arcs have played out, and were structured, then there would be no issues with this way of thinking. In the past, we've always seen the Straw Hat pirates going up insurmountable odds, where they've come into the arc as the underdogs. However, the end of Wano, and Egghead Island has become the turning point for the series, in regards to how Oda seems to be approaching the series.

At the end of Wano, the Straw Hats have been recognized as a full blown Yonko crew. It's asinine to believe that Oda is going to treat the Straw Hats from this point forward, in the same way he has treated them in the past. Not only does this not make sense from a readers point of view, but it also does not make sense from a narrative point of view, with in which how Yonko's are perceived within the story itself.

Now if you have paid attention throughout the story, then you would understand, that Top Tiers have been portrayed to stand at a relatively equal level towards each other. In some instances there is even times where a single top tier, can hold their own against two other top tiers, for a fixed amount of time. This isn't applied to any one single top tier, but is heavily implied that all Top Tiers are capable of doing something like this. For example, we have Shiki the Golden Lion, who was capable of fighting against Sengoku and Garp at the same time, until he ultimately lost, and in another instance we have Rayleigh, who inferred back on Sabaody that if he wasn't out of his prime, that he would be capable of helping out the Straw Hats, while at the same time fighting against Kizaru. There is also the matter, where Kizaru requested from Akainu that he be allowed to go and intercept Kaido and Big Mom, in order to stop them from forming an alliance. These aren't isolated instances, but rather a piece of the puzzle, of the story that Oda is trying to tell. Top Tiers don't fall easily, even when faced with the odds stacked against them.

With that being said, we will move back to Saturn and Kizaru. Like I said earlier, Oda has now had to change the formula of how he writes the Straw Hats, now that they have become a Yonko crew, and Luffy has achieved Top Tier status. First and foremost, what people fail understand, is that Kizaru has not been having a terrible showing at all. He has been fighting against another top tier, this entire time, and this is what people fail to see. The days are gone where Luffy is going to be going into a fight, and start off on the losing end. He has made it to the stage, where there isn't a person in the World who is going to dominate him right off the bat, like how the story has been structured in the past. It can't happen like that anymore, otherwise Oda will be going against his own set of rules that he has established.

Kizaru could not just come into this arc, and completely dominate, because he is not fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at a lower level than himself. He is fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at an equal level. The ending of the Kaido fight should have been more than enough for the fans to comprehend this. Luffy went from getting completely crushed by Kaido in the beginning, standing on equal footing with him at the end. This is where the misconception starts to take form.

People are so used to Top Tiers coming in and just demolishing everyone whose weaker than them, that it is stuck in their heads that if they aren't just wrecking everyone in site, then this is a bad showing on their part. That is completely false, because as I have already explained, Kizaru is not fighting against a weaker opponent, so Oda has to remove this sense of overbearing power from him, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Oda can't elevate the Straw Hats to the status of one of the highest powers in the World, and still treat them like they are a bunch of scrubs in the face of other Top Tiers. That would be piss poor writing.

With that being said, the same applies to Saturn. He also, can not come in, and just barrel straight through the Straw Hat crew either. Top Tier or not, he is up against a Yonko crew. And I can give a fuck all, what you power level junkies want to think, but ALL of the Straw Hat crew have gotten much stronger. This BS "Haha blocked by Sanji", or "can't kill Franky" etc.. garbage has to stop. It's like yall forget about Marineford, and how the WB Commanders were capable of fighting against Top Tiers. Yall are so stuck on your character wars, that you can't open your eyes and see just how far the Straw Hats have progressed as a whole. They have all gotten much stronger, and will not be steamrolled by Top Tiers, like they have in the past.

That brings me to my last point. Now that we've established that the Straw Hats are much stronger, and will no longer be the underdogs, how does Oda go about putting them at a disadvantage? Well, we've gotten our answer with KIzaru and Saturn. This is how Oda is stacking the odds against Luffy at the moment. Seeing as how it is not narratively possible for him to have one Top Tier put the Straw Hats into a back against the wall situation, and he needs to keep the odds in the villains favor, he has brought two Top Tiers into the mix. In any other series, this might seem like overkill, but in One Piece, Oda was smart about it, and has already established the narrative that one Top Tier can fight and hold off two top tiers for a fixed amount of time. Doing this, does not make Kizaru nor Saturn look bad, because either one of them would be able to do the same thing, if the roles were reversed.

It's time for all of you to take your nostalgia glasses off, and start reading the story from a logical standpoint. Gone are the days where the Straw Hats look like the underdogs from a power level standpoint. Your top tier faves will no longer have the dominating presence they once had, because they are no longer fighting against those who are beneath them. We are in EoS, and the Straw Hats are fast approaching being known as the Pirate King crew. It's time to accept it, move on, and enjoy how far our favorites have come.
 
#3
Also, the arc isn’t over and neither Kizaru or Saturn have shown their full bags.

Saturn still has the weird aura ability that he can hold people down with.

Kizaru still has his clones and the ability to create holograms (this is what the clones are).

Neither character has been defeated.
Doesn't matter their characterization has been made as shit... Nothing can fix it.. And I don't think they are gonna do any better until the arc ends
.
 
#4
Doesn't matter their characterization has been made as shit... Nothing can fix it.. And I don't think they are gonna do any better until the arc ends
.
Characterization for Kizaru has been great, killing Vegapunk and not abandoning his duty was the best thing that could have happened to his character.

Saturn needs some work sure but that’s to be expected with how late he was truly introduced.
 
#5
Also, the arc isn’t over and neither Kizaru or Saturn have shown their full bags.

Saturn still has the weird aura ability that he can hold people down with.

Kizaru still has his clones and the ability to create holograms (this is what the clones are).

Neither character has been defeated.
Saturn DF has yet to be even named, we barely saw his abilities.
Kizaru was in hand in pocket again this chapter, implying casualness.
Everything til now was Stall Piece as Oda had to delay Vegapunk death for the big lore dromb that is about to happen next chapter.
Once this is done, playtime is over.

I’m willing to take a bet with anybody that Luffy is going to get his shit clapped til the arrival of the AR or/and the giants.
 
#6
100% agree, I also think people are not clued in to how competent Oda has made the villains of this arc. They are actually achieving many of their goals.

Lucci was able to infiltrate the Strawhats and leak information to Kizaru/Saturn, he's now successfully keeping Zoro away from the main conflict on his own.

Kizaru defeated Sentomaru, took control of the pacafistas back, defeated snakeman while ruining the SHs escape plan, took Luffy out of the fight temporarily, and has now successfully killed Stella.

Saturn hasn't been permanently damaged by any attacks yet, stabbed Vegapunk, and only just went into his new transformation.

Saturn/Kizaru may be defeated this arc, but Oda isn't just having Luffy or the Strawhats steamroll the WG. They are actually struggling.
 
#7
Just people over reacting to Kizaru finally bleeding, after so many chapters fighting on the island, suddenly he's not powerful anymore.
Even though Luffy recognized him as a Top Tier as soon as he landed on the island.



Saturn has also been greeted with a "SHVR" reaction



; but honestly he hasn't been very impressive for a while now. Just been getting knocked around the whole time he's been here.
 
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#9
They’re strong but neither are as strong as Kaido.

That’s why Oda put made both of them villains of this arc.
Kizaru and Saturn, the two big bads of this arc, in theory should be stronger combined than Big Mom and Kaido who were the two big bads of the last arc

Whether than means both are stronger than Big Mom but weaker than Kaido or something else is up to interpretation.
 
#10
It's one thing called agenda..........that's the main reason
Marine fans vowed Kizaru would be a bigger challenge than any other opponent Luffy has faced including the Yonko, some even conclude he'll beat him again and we'll get Saboady V2.
Yonko fans/Luffy fans counter that. It's an entertainment. Fandom wars etc etc.

Keeping all that aside, anyone at this stage should just realised G5 is simply too powerful and joined the wank train along with Oda.
And you'll be fine, you'd be safe from any agenda.
Otherwise you'd need to constantly cope with it.

Kizaru isn't weak yes but ppl shouldn't genuinely expect something too high from him either, except that they're playing agenda wars.
There exist ppl who genuinely believe Kizaru "goes all out" would overwhelmed Nika Gear 5.
So ppl thinking Kizaru has a poor performance, failed, letdown is not surprising to begin with............ you expect your well trained fighting dog to beat a Tiger, but he couldn't and you're disappointed
:luuh:
 
S

Sasaki Kojirō

#11
So there seems to be some sort of misconception floating around here that due to Kizaru and Saturn's showing so far on Egghead, that it constitutes regarding them as characters who are to be considered a "letdown". Now if you look at how past arcs have played out, and were structured, then there would be no issues with this way of thinking. In the past, we've always seen the Straw Hat pirates going up insurmountable odds, where they've come into the arc as the underdogs. However, the end of Wano, and Egghead Island has become the turning point for the series, in regards to how Oda seems to be approaching the series.

At the end of Wano, the Straw Hats have been recognized as a full blown Yonko crew. It's asinine to believe that Oda is going to treat the Straw Hats from this point forward, in the same way he has treated them in the past. Not only does this not make sense from a readers point of view, but it also does not make sense from a narrative point of view, with in which how Yonko's are perceived within the story itself.

Now if you have paid attention throughout the story, then you would understand, that Top Tiers have been portrayed to stand at a relatively equal level towards each other. In some instances there is even times where a single top tier, can hold their own against two other top tiers, for a fixed amount of time. This isn't applied to any one single top tier, but is heavily implied that all Top Tiers are capable of doing something like this. For example, we have Shiki the Golden Lion, who was capable of fighting against Sengoku and Garp at the same time, until he ultimately lost, and in another instance we have Rayleigh, who inferred back on Sabaody that if he wasn't out of his prime, that he would be capable of helping out the Straw Hats, while at the same time fighting against Kizaru. There is also the matter, where Kizaru requested from Akainu that he be allowed to go and intercept Kaido and Big Mom, in order to stop them from forming an alliance. These aren't isolated instances, but rather a piece of the puzzle, of the story that Oda is trying to tell. Top Tiers don't fall easily, even when faced with the odds stacked against them.

With that being said, we will move back to Saturn and Kizaru. Like I said earlier, Oda has now had to change the formula of how he writes the Straw Hats, now that they have become a Yonko crew, and Luffy has achieved Top Tier status. First and foremost, what people fail understand, is that Kizaru has not been having a terrible showing at all. He has been fighting against another top tier, this entire time, and this is what people fail to see. The days are gone where Luffy is going to be going into a fight, and start off on the losing end. He has made it to the stage, where there isn't a person in the World who is going to dominate him right off the bat, like how the story has been structured in the past. It can't happen like that anymore, otherwise Oda will be going against his own set of rules that he has established.

Kizaru could not just come into this arc, and completely dominate, because he is not fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at a lower level than himself. He is fighting against a Luffy who came into the arc at an equal level. The ending of the Kaido fight should have been more than enough for the fans to comprehend this. Luffy went from getting completely crushed by Kaido in the beginning, standing on equal footing with him at the end. This is where the misconception starts to take form.

People are so used to Top Tiers coming in and just demolishing everyone whose weaker than them, that it is stuck in their heads that if they aren't just wrecking everyone in site, then this is a bad showing on their part. That is completely false, because as I have already explained, Kizaru is not fighting against a weaker opponent, so Oda has to remove this sense of overbearing power from him, because it doesn't fit the narrative. Oda can't elevate the Straw Hats to the status of one of the highest powers in the World, and still treat them like they are a bunch of scrubs in the face of other Top Tiers. That would be piss poor writing.

With that being said, the same applies to Saturn. He also, can not come in, and just barrel straight through the Straw Hat crew either. Top Tier or not, he is up against a Yonko crew. And I can give a fuck all, what you power level junkies want to think, but ALL of the Straw Hat crew have gotten much stronger. This BS "Haha blocked by Sanji", or "can't kill Franky" etc.. garbage has to stop. It's like yall forget about Marineford, and how the WB Commanders were capable of fighting against Top Tiers. Yall are so stuck on your character wars, that you can't open your eyes and see just how far the Straw Hats have progressed as a whole. They have all gotten much stronger, and will not be steamrolled by Top Tiers, like they have in the past.

That brings me to my last point. Now that we've established that the Straw Hats are much stronger, and will no longer be the underdogs, how does Oda go about putting them at a disadvantage? Well, we've gotten our answer with KIzaru and Saturn. This is how Oda is stacking the odds against Luffy at the moment. Seeing as how it is not narratively possible for him to have one Top Tier put the Straw Hats into a back against the wall situation, and he needs to keep the odds in the villains favor, he has brought two Top Tiers into the mix. In any other series, this might seem like overkill, but in One Piece, Oda was smart about it, and has already established the narrative that one Top Tier can fight and hold off two top tiers for a fixed amount of time. Doing this, does not make Kizaru nor Saturn look bad, because either one of them would be able to do the same thing, if the roles were reversed.

It's time for all of you to take your nostalgia glasses off, and start reading the story from a logical standpoint. Gone are the days where the Straw Hats look like the underdogs from a power level standpoint. Your top tier faves will no longer have the dominating presence they once had, because they are no longer fighting against those who are beneath them. We are in EoS, and the Straw Hats are fast approaching being known as the Pirate King crew. It's time to accept it, move on, and enjoy how far our favorites have come.
There was an interview with Naito, the editor of One Piece, in which Oda approved him to say the following:

- According to Oda, the Wano Arc is a story strongly related to the final chapter of One Piece. Naito says that these Wano flashbacks will deal with Roger's legendary adventure. Wano is the most important arc that will be related to the greatest secret about "What is ONE PIECE (as a treasure)?"

- The interviewer is shocked to hear these words and asks Naito if there's no problem in publishing this interview on the internet. Naito responds that Oda has already approved these words.

- Naito honestly states that Wano is such an important arc that fans who have already stopped reading One Piece should come back.

This must be another reason why the Wano arc is the most important to Oda, besides, of course, introducing the strongest living being in the world as the antagonist.


Touching on the topic a bit, is it true that fans of the admirals haven't left the bubble they created in 2010 up until the present time, in which they believe that every adversary will provide the same tension for the Straw Hats when they were really weak and still in the development phase regarding power, which is why they often make mistakes and suffer several L? They think that the villain being stronger than everyone else is the only way to cause tension in the manga, when Oda introduced extra tension indirectly like Doflamingo's Birdcage, Kaido's bombs, Kaido lifting an entire island completely, a feat that no admiral is capable of, but that ended, to be honest.

Oda made Luffy openly declare that if you don't fear the Yonkous, there's nothing else in the world you should fear, and that's a reflection of Luffy's mindset after Wano, fearless. However, I disagree with you about Kizaru. Luffy indeed became a Top Tier, but there is a difference between the Top Tiers in One Piece; not all of them will engage in a 10-day battle against each other, it depends on the confrontation, the context.

Kaido and Luffy are outliers even among the TOP TIERS; they are not a "common" Top Tier. If more is expected of them, even Roger, when asking for fun, chose to separate Garp and Sengoku from the rest of the marines and admirals at that time. Shiki openly stating that the marines' fleets would never be able to capture Roger, Big Mom calling Kaido "that thing," as if he were an abomination that shouldn't exist, Blackbeard referring to Kaido as a "terrifying monster." You see, there are TOP TIERS who exalt other TOP TIERS, so this logic that all TOP TIERS are equal simply isn't the right way to think. Kaido by confrontation crushes Green Bull in every way, to the point where his fear of Kaido is justifiable.

What we're seeing here is a Super Top Tier like Luffy fighting against a mere Top Tier like Kizaru and possibly Saturno.
 
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ZenZu

The only one who can beat me is me
#12
Yup, it would be distasteful if 1 Admiral came in and starting punking a Yonkou and his entire crew by himself. It would make Wano feel like filler.



Kizaru has been more than fine, he hasn't even focused on someone this strong and pretty much passively outlasted his ultimate form.

Edit: I realize Kuzan literally did just that to the BB pirates but it didn't escalate into a full on fight. Kizaru doing that to Luffy would make Kaidou the single biggest fraud in the series.
 
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#13
I do agree with this but I would also say Luffy reached this level too soon.

G5 Luffy is pinnacle of power we have seen so far . There isnt a character right now who is capable of defeating G5 Luffy , he must wait for this mode to reach his limit . This power allowed Luffy to defeat world strongest creature Kaido , he tanked 10 acoc attacks , all elemental attacks Kaido has , he showed greater attack power than Kaido and he won in a haki clash against him. Luffy was laughing , tanking everything Kaido was throwing at him and he even played with him couple times. This is first time that Luffy not just defeated but actually surpassed his opponent thanks to his new power.

So if he defeated world strongest creature who can actually oppose him in fair battle , who can make Luffy be underdog again ? Thats why I think it was too soon.

I never expected Kizaru to be superior to G5 Luffy but I did expect him to show better feats , and I expected those feats to come from his new powers he never showed before like awakening and future sight.

I know its too soon and that we could still see those but I have lost hype for that. It could also be issue that I started with one piece in last may , I bought all 103 physical volumes and read it all 2 times already. That is plenty of content with all stories being finished . Now I must actually wait each week for 15 pages of content so I am jumping into conclusions too early.
 
#14
Obviously they're not weak. Oda always does this in this story. He has 1 side look good 1 or 2 chapters, then he has the otherside look good.

> VP gets mortally wounded
> Ranji blocks Kizaru laser
> kizaru kills VP (flatlined)
> Luffy grabs both Kizaru& Saturn (making people think its gonna be a 2v1)

Now it's either another strawhat W or it's the enemies turn
 
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#15
People are always very reactionary with this series. Agenda stuff is part of it, but it’s really been that way even before agenda talk became prominent.

The best thing to do is just roll your eyes and move on. There’s never been any logic to it, so trying that is just fruitless. Lampooning the silly claims and logic they use is pretty much the only way to have tolerable fun with it.
The usual trolls are just best avoided completely
 
#17
It's more simple than that imo

people need to accept that top tiers aren't precisaly equals

there are differents level of top tiers even among admirals and yonko, not only between pk tier and the rest of top tiers

They’re strong but neither are as strong as Kaido.

That’s why Oda put made both of them villains of this arc.
Exactly. The problem started when people thought that Kizaru would have been as strong as or stronger than kaido.

saturn is very likely even weaker than kizaru.

The problem isn't that kizaru and saturn are weak, because they are strong, specially kizaru, but kaido is another matter.
Idk if even shanks and teach are above all with a discret margin, but for now kaido is significally stronger than kizaru and saturn, let's see what he or they will do against Luffy now
 
#18
It's more simple than that imo

people need to accept that top tiers aren't precisaly equals

there are differents level of top tiers even among admirals and yonko, not only between pk tier and the rest of top tiers



Exactly. The problem started when people thought that Kizaru would have been as strong as or stronger than kaido.

saturn is very likely even weaker than kizaru.

The problem isn't that kizaru and saturn are weak, because they are strong, specially kizaru, but kaido is another matter.
Idk if even shanks and teach are above all with a discret margin, but for now kaido is significally stronger than kizaru and saturn, let's see what he or they will do against Luffy now
No you see. We are one worstgen.

People here will accept Sanji will take an admiral EoS but then throw a shitfit when you point out maybe Kaido or Shanks are noticeably stronger than an admiral.

We all know pirate characters will look stronger than marines in the end.


They need to delude themselves
 
#19
Kizaru isn't top tier, that much is obvious by how Luffy essentially one shot him twice in the same arc, this time he got grab-diffed.

It's only a letdown if you had ridiculous expectations about admiral power level, high tiers can't contend with top tiers.

Saturn isn't a let down yet, Kizaru looks done in the fist of Luffy Saturn looks like he's just warming up.
 
#20
It's more simple than that imo

people need to accept that top tiers aren't precisaly equals

there are differents level of top tiers even among admirals and yonko, not only between pk tier and the rest of top tiers



Exactly. The problem started when people thought that Kizaru would have been as strong as or stronger than kaido.

saturn is very likely even weaker than kizaru.

The problem isn't that kizaru and saturn are weak, because they are strong, specially kizaru, but kaido is another matter.
Idk if even shanks and teach are above all with a discret margin, but for now kaido is significally stronger than kizaru and saturn, let's see what he or they will do against Luffy now
We know Shanks is on Kaido’s level as he was specifically shown as one of the few people capable of fighting him.

Prime Teach should be stronger than Shanks, so surpassing Kaido is a given
 
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