Controversial General Political Discussion

[Xione]

There is no such thing as biological man. Either you have biological male characteristic or you identify as a man. You are not a "biological man". Man and woman are genders, not sexual characteristics.



Lebron James is not a woman, right ? So your question is not pertinent.

You don't choose to become a man or a woman. Its something that you are because its your identity.

So unless you tell me that lebron is actually a woman going under a therapy (that will actually transform their body) then no, there is no reason.


That's for the game institution to decide.

Man 1828 Webster dictionary:
- A male individual of the human race, of adult growth or years.
- A male of the human race; used often in compound words, or in the nature of an adjective; as a man-child; men-cooks; men-servants.
- It sometimes bears the sense of a male adult of some uncommon qualifications; particularly, the sense of strength, vigor, bravery, virile powers, or magnanimity, as distinguished from the weakness, timidity or impotence of a boy, or from the narrow mindedness of low bred men.


Oxford english dictionary, Man:
- An adult male human being.


But to accommodate you, I'll ask the question again in the terminology you want everyone to go by.

Should Lebron James who is a biological male, if he decides to identify as a woman, be allowed to play in the WNBA OR should that only be allowed if he chose to go through body altering hormonal therapy?

If yes, to the latter, down to what extent does he need to lower his test, to where he meets the top WNBA player or where he meets the average test of the total wnba players?


The game institution has nothing to do with my hypothetical question to you.

 

[Mathias]

So do you believe Lebron James a biological man should be allowed to play in the WNBA, or can he only do so once he goes through the body altering hormonal therapy to lower his physical stats?

If yes, how much of a physical decrease does he need to give himself in order to play in the WNBA, just when he's on par with the top WNBA player or when he meets the average stats of WNBA players as total?

Give him tits, big ones. And we good

 

[NikaInParis]

Man 1828 Webster dictionary:
- A male individual of the human race, of adult growth or years.
- A male of the human race; used often in compound words, or in the nature of an adjective; as a man-child; men-cooks; men-servants.
- It sometimes bears the sense of a male adult of some uncommon qualifications; particularly, the sense of strength, vigor, bravery, virile powers, or magnanimity, as distinguished from the weakness, timidity or impotence of a boy, or from the narrow mindedness of low bred men.


Oxford english dictionary, Man:
- An adult male human being.


But to accommodate you, I'll ask the question again in the terminology you want everyone to go by.

Should Lebron James who is a biological male, if he decides to identify as a woman, be allowed to play in the WNBA OR should that only be allowed if he chose to go through body altering hormonal therapy?

If yes, to the latter, down to what extent does he need to lower his test, to where he meets the top WNBA player or where he meets the average test of the total wnba players?


The game institution has nothing to do with my hypothetical question to you.

Lebronette James would still destroy even the NBA, let alone the sunday league known as WNBA

 

[Xione]

Lebronette James would still destroy even the NBA, let alone the sunday league known as WNBA

Bro as a 60 year old would likely be better than majority of the WNBA players if not all.

 

[NikaInParis]

Bro as a 60 year old would likely be better than majority of the WNBA players if not all.

There's a video of a team of paraplegic men (each with only one leg) playing football against a pro women's team. The paraplegics destroyed them.

As did literal children's teams.

 

[Logiko]

You really hate science and men.

This is science mate:

https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender

This is what you don't understand. Don't give me lessons on science.

wow

Science is difficult to understand ?

They might be genders. But it's still badly seen to refer to each other as female or male. People who use these terms are often seen as crazy masculinists.

We don't say male's sport but men's sport. It's the tradition.

Language issues

In France we clearly make the distinction, its less obvious in English. That's why I really push the distinction here. I think its best for the benefit of Trans people and Cis people in general.

Man 1828 Webster dictionary:
- A male individual of the human race, of adult growth or years.
- A male of the human race; used often in compound words, or in the nature of an adjective; as a man-child; men-cooks; men-servants.
- It sometimes bears the sense of a male adult of some uncommon qualifications; particularly, the sense of strength, vigor, bravery, virile powers, or magnanimity, as distinguished from the weakness, timidity or impotence of a boy, or from the narrow mindedness of low bred men.


Oxford english dictionary, Man:
- An adult male human being.

National institutes of Health (official medical and scientific documentation):

Sex and gender are different.

https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender

Those who relies on dictionnaries don't know sh*t about linguistic.

Should Lebron James who is a biological male, if he decides to identify as a woman, be allowed to play in the WNBA OR should that only be allowed if he chose to go through body altering hormonal therapy?

I think the reglementation will be clear on that on a specific testosterone level. So its for the institution who will regulate the game to decide.

Also, you have to understand that once you identify as a woman as a trans person, there is very little probability that you won't undergo a physical therapy. Identifying to a woman is a need in this case, its not optionnal.

 

[Xione]

National institutes of Health (official medical and scientific documentation):

Sex and gender are different.

https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender

Those who relies on dictionnaries don't know sh*t about linguistic.



I think the reglementation will be clear on that on a specific testosterone level. So its for the institution who will regulate the game to decide.

Also, you have to understand that once you identify as a woman as a trans person, there is very little probability that you won't undergo a physical therapy. Identifying to a woman is a need in this case, its not optionnal.

Oh ok so you don't understand how dictionaries work, got it. Attempting to argue for linguistics while using the National Institute of Health as your source isn't gonna get you anywhere. Is this how the French argue for linguistics? Lol.


So in order for Lebron James to compete against women, after becoming a woman... you would have her alter her natural body rather than be allowed to compete with the body she was born with, biological male?? Would you fight for her rights to compete against other women even if the game organizers make rules against it?

 

[Mathias]

In France we clearly make the distinction, its less obvious in English. That's why I really push the distinction here. I think its best for the benefit of Trans people and Cis people in general.

What do you mean ? I never refer to my friends as "femelle" or "mâle" lmao

 

[Logiko]

Oh ok so you don't understand how dictionaries work, got it.

No mate, its you who don't understand how linguistic works



But don't worry, you are not the first one here.

Attempting to argue for linguistics while using the National Institute of Health as your source isn't gonna get you anywhere. Is this how the French argue for linguistics? Lol.

Maybe you should talk about science when we are talking about scientific subjects instead of trying to argue you point with a dictionnary.

Don't you think ?

So in order for Lebron James to compete against women, after becoming a woman... you would have her alter her natural body rather than be allowed to compete with the body she was born with, biological male??

Again you are not understanding.

I wouldn't do anything. The urge to transform the body goes with the fact of being trans. Its link to gender disphoria and the need to appear within the physical expection of the identity.

This person would do that by themself. Naturally. (with the help of medecine of course)

Would you fight for her rights to compete against other women even if the game organizers make rules against it?

If the person is a woman and stands within the limits of acceptable and fair physical characteristic set by the sportive institution, I would fight for her right to compete yeah.

What do you mean ? I never refer to my friends as "femelle" or "mâle" lmao

What I mean is that in france we do not use the terms "male" or "femelle" to designate individual because in our langage it refers to either scientific or animalistic viewpoint.

On the other hand, I noticed that in English, those term are sometimes used interchangeably with the term "women" and "men" to talk about gender.

I find that quite problematic when it comes to understanding the difference between gender and sex so I'm purpusely never using those terms here and instead always say either "man or woman" to designate the gender or "male or female CHARACTERISTICTS" to designate the sexual attributes.

 

[RebelliousSoma]

Oh ok so you don't understand how dictionaries work, got it. Attempting to argue for linguistics while using the National Institute of Health as your source isn't gonna get you anywhere. Is this how the French argue for linguistics? Lol.


So in order for Lebron James to compete against women, after becoming a woman... you would have her alter her natural body rather than be allowed to compete with the body she was born with, biological male?? Would you fight for her rights to compete against other women even if the game organizers make rules against it?

maybe he just uses google translate, so he doesn't really get what anyone is telling him

 

[Zenos7]

Man 1828 Webster dictionary:
- A male individual of the human race, of adult growth or years.
- A male of the human race; used often in compound words, or in the nature of an adjective; as a man-child; men-cooks; men-servants.
- It sometimes bears the sense of a male adult of some uncommon qualifications; particularly, the sense of strength, vigor, bravery, virile powers, or magnanimity, as distinguished from the weakness, timidity or impotence of a boy, or from the narrow mindedness of low bred men.


Oxford english dictionary, Man:
- An adult male human being.

logiko doesnt go by dictionaries bro

 

[RebelliousSoma]

I find that quite problematic when it comes to understanding the difference between gender and sex so I'm purpusely never using those terms here and instead always say either "man or woman" to designate the gender or "male or female CHARACTERISTICTS" to designate the sexual attributes.

If you ever manage to re-read your shit you won't be able to agree with it either. Countless examples in this thread.

Go learn science.

 

[Zenos7]

This is science mate:

https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender

This is what you don't understand. Don't give me lessons on science.

A person’s gender identity (e.g., woman, man, trans man, gender-diverse, nonbinary) is self-identified, may change throughout their life

didnt you recently say it doesnt change because its what they are deep down or some shit?

Post automatically merged: Aug 2, 2024

https://orwh.od.nih.gov/sex-gender

also, what if i dont have a gender identity? do i still get to call myself a man because im male?

Post automatically merged: Aug 2, 2024

Oh ok so you don't understand how dictionaries work, got it. Attempting to argue for linguistics while using the National Institute of Health as your source isn't gonna get you anywhere. Is this how the French argue for linguistics? Lol.


So in order for Lebron James to compete against women, after becoming a woman... you would have her alter her natural body rather than be allowed to compete with the body she was born with, biological male?? Would you fight for her rights to compete against other women even if the game organizers make rules against it?

better not tell logiko that not every language has his precious sex/gender differentiation

 

[Logiko]

If you ever manage to re-read your shit you won't be able to agree with it either. Countless examples in this thread.

Go learn science.

Nah, On this point I have always been quite consistant

Again, don't talk about science when you can't even aknowledge scientific articles or scientific documentations.

didnt you recently say it doesnt change because its what they are deep down or some shit?

Indeed. In the case of gender fluid people, said gender can fluctuate.

In the case of trans people (as in the basic definition of the term) it does not.

also, what if i dont have a gender identity? do i still get to call myself a man because im male?

You call yourself whatever you want mate.

better not tell logiko that not every language has his precious sex/gender differentiation

Iindeed, english is blury on this part for example. That's why I purposely making this distinction. Simply because its the scientific and medical way to speak about sex and gender.

 

[Zemmi]

Don't worry fellas I'll run for president and set forth a new world order

I have decided I will run in 2028 and become the first woman president.

 

[Xione]

better not tell logiko that not every language has his precious sex/gender differentiation

All languages historically don't. Since they didn't view men/women based on their role. Hence you'd have women doing the samethings as men, but still be labeled women. And a different term for people who didn't fall under either genetically. The argument essentially ends up coming back to "In order to do the roles men do, you want to be a man. In order to do the roles women do, you want to be a woman". So you're limiting the roles into two categories to define the "man/woman" gender.

Rather than addressing the fact that men shouldn't be discriminated against for dressing feminine in various cultures. It has become "accept them as women". Same for women. Historically we have plenty of examples of women who led armies, fought in wars alongside men, became monarchs ruling over nations/empires... roles that for the most part went to men, those women were still labeled women despite doing societal roles that men did. Then we're not accepting of people as transwomen or transmen, aka men and women who've decided to transfer/change their gender/sex...instead they must be women or men... because making such a distinction is discriminatory.

I think the more interesting thing to me about the whole movement is in its essence it is truly a hypocritical stance. You'd rather not help the person accept the body they were born with and help them be comfortable in that body, empower them to be feminine or masculine in their lifestyles while embracing their body... instead you'd advocate for changing ones body constitution through procedures that could be extremely harmful.

Imo, ones true self should be how you're born. If you cannot embrace your true self, you're not accepting your identity. Rather you're attempting to change your identity. Your identity being not only your role in culture and society, but your very biological make up itself.

 

[Zenos7]

Iindeed, english is blury on this part for example.

it really isnt though, thats why everyone except for you has man and woman defined by male and female respectively.

Post automatically merged: Aug 2, 2024

"In order to do the roles men do, you want to be a man. In order to do the roles women do, you want to be a woman". So you're limiting the roles into two categories to define the "man/woman" gender.

yeah which is weird, because some people just dont care about man/woman shit. they are just individuals who happen to be either of the sexes.

Imo, ones true self should be how you're born. If you cannot embrace your true self, you're not accepting your identity. Rather you're attempting to change your identity. Your identity being not only your role in culture, but your very biological make up itself.

eeh, people change their physical appearance in many ways. what about piercings, tattoos, general plastic surgery?

im fine if people want to change their appearance, because ones self shouldnt be limited to that anyway?!. . .

 

[Xione]

eeh, people change their physical appearance in many ways. what about piercings, tattoos, general plastic surgery?

im fine if people want to change their appearance, because ones self shouldnt be limited to that anyway?!. . .

I mean I have 0 issues with people doing plastic surgery, hormonal therapy, etc. Your body and your choice to alter it how you want, but I would never advocate for those two. Though I don't think piercings/tattoos are in anyway comparable to actual modifications of hormones and surgery. Hence you don't see me going around making arguments based on "accepting ones identity". Because identities always change. But my point is your identity isn't limited to 1 thing, but totality of who you are.

 

[Yoho]

I have decided I will run in 2028 and become the first woman president.

Bet bet President's do all the work I'll be your VP

 

[Logiko]

Then we're not accepting of people as transwomen or transmen, aka men and women who've decided to transfer/change their gender/sex.

Trans people do not "decide" to change or transfert their gender, it simply their identity.

Also, women leader doesn't negate the presence of patriarchy in pretty much all societies.

I think the more interesting thing to me about the whole movement is in its essence it is truly a hypocritical stance.

I think you completely missunderstand the issue in reality. That's not a problem of your perception, its you only being uneducated (like many people here) on the subject.

You'd rather not help the person accept the body they were born with and help them be comfortable in that body, empower them to be feminine or masculine in their lifestyles while embracing their body... instead you'd advocate for changing ones body constitution through procedures that could be extremely harmful.

It's not that simple. There is something called gender disphoria, and it does not disappear just through the force of your will.

Most procedure are not harmfull and the VAST majority of trans people are happy to transition.

Educate yourself on the subject.

Imo, ones true self should be how you're born.

No, one true self is your identity, its your life, your experience, your feeling, your memory. Etc.

Stop trying to put your ideals on people.

If you cannot embrace your true self, you're not accepting your identity.

Rather you're attempting to change your identity.

Trans HAVE an identity, they just want their body to align with said identity and society to accept as they are maening the opposite gender assignate and birth.

In other words, instead of trying to let them be who they are here, you are trying to format them into something they are not.

So Again,, educate yourself.

it really isnt though, thats why everyone except for you has man and woman defined by male and female respectively.

See, you just proved it. A lot of people in english lack the knowledge to make the distinction.

Again, follow science, not made up dictionnaries.