General & Others ONE PIECE DEBUNK : "Luffy is the choosen one"

Kumathegoat

Kumathegoat

‎
#21
#21
@Logiko

Mate, Luffy died and ressurected

There is a Nika church, a Nika bible and there are many Nika followers who believe that he is going to be the one to bring the dawn of the world.

Many characters call Luffy Joyboy or Nika because he is literally the incarnation of the savior of the world, the one who frees the slaves.

The Nika Nika fruit chose Luffy

Bonney got powers from believing in him.

The parallels are way too obvious, mate.











 
Logiko

Logiko

‎
#22
#22
Kumathegoat said:
@Logiko

Mate, Luffy died and ressurected
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This doesn't change what I'm saying.

At best at worse it gives Luffy a semi divine status which is on par with his fruit, but nothing more. The nuance that I'm explaining is still very present even with that even

You need to understand why I'm making this thread in the first place : People are using the "chosen one trope" as a way to explain that Luffy was done badly, explaining that by introducing Nika, Oda transformed Luffy into the chosen one.

What I'm explaining is that Oda didn't change ANYTHING and that the chosen one trope is not what Luffy is based on, but the trope of the inevitable savior. Wich is - granted - associated with the chosen one trope.

But I think now, that it is important to make the nuance. Why ?

Because the reason the inevitable savior trope doesn't creates problems of facilities for the character and therefore should not be seen as a problem. Unlike the "Chosen one trope" (which is really not that bad anyway let's be honest, it's just a vision of society)


Kumathegoat said:
There is a Nika church, a Nika bible and there are many Nika followers who believe that he is going to be the one to bring the dawn of the world.

Many characters call Luffy Joyboy or Nika because he is literally the incarnation of the savior of the world, the one who frees the slaves.

The Nika Nika fruit chose Luffy

Bonney got powers from believing in him.

The parallels are way too obvious, mate.
Click to expand...
Yes. Which concure with what I'm saying. Luffy is the one who was promised, but not choosen.

I understand that this is a very tricky nuance to understand, but it's important to understand. Especially because this is the reason why we should not trash on Gear 5 because of a so called "choosen one trope".

A promise savior, is just the result of a prophecy. A prophecy made by someone who saw the future, a future written by someone in the present and that stands proud because of his choices, among the ruin of the past. All of that to bring a new future that he does not even have a clue about.

Luffy is really not the the choosen one. He is the inevitable savior. Simply because in One Piece, Luffy will always have the most will to stand against oppression. Why ? Well.. because it's Luffy. A man moved within all his cells by joy and freedom to the maximum degree.
 
Logiko

Logiko

‎
#24
#24
Kumathegoat said:
You do not understand the nuance that this is exactly problem the longtime One Piece readers have with Nika.

Luffy did not need to become Jesus (Nika) to save the world, but Oda chose to do this
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Yeah.. you are not gonna tell me that I'm not understanding a nuance in One Piece that long time readers have with it. That's not gonna happen I'm sorry lmao.

First, I've been reading One Piece for 23 years. So... yeah
Second. Again, Luffy did not became Jesus, he is not the chosen one.

And the very best, the guys "ressurected" because of his awakening. That's the ONLY thing that drastically changed:

- Luffy was seen as a guardian deity BEFORE Nika (Hyogoro)
- Luffy was seen as a an inevitable savior BEFORE Nika (All the strawhats and all the close ally)
- Luffy already had most of his power of the Nika fruit BEFORE Nika, he simply extended his already existing abilities and added the ability to create things out of nothingness and the ability to turn everthing into rubber.
- Luffy was already propheties to become the bringer of the Dawn BEFORE Nika (Pedro)
- Luffy already had ALL the potential to become Nika BEFORE Nika.

Despite all the angry people that you might have seen on this forum about Gear 5. The Nika reveal is not something that retconned the story, it's a revelation that extended elements that already existed in the first place
 
Kerkovian

Kerkovian

‎
#26
#26
Logiko said:
Hi,

Yeah yeah.. I did gave up on this forum. But, I might extend my presence just a little bit longer. Not to fight toxicity here per say, but because I had an idea to have a little fun on my way out : "One Piece Debunk". One, maybe more threads to debunk some missconceptions about the story.


LUFFY IS NOT THE CHOOSEN ONE
​

"Wrong, he ate the most powerful devil fruit and there is the prophecy of the Dawn" you might say... Well... no. It's a missconception. Luffy was never the choosen one. He simply is the best fit.

-----------

But first, I want to share a reflexion I had while replying to someone here:

I think, my problem is with the lazy definition of the trope "chosen one". The chosen one can mean a lot of things that are sometimes very different narratively, so I'm choosing to take a more "religious" approach and take the figure of the "Messiah" as an reference.
If we look closer at what the choosen ones are in fiction, you could say that the choosen one category can be categorized into two different one:

- The overall inevitable savior figure
- The choosen one (who is really choosen by all aspects of the story)

I think it's important to distinguishing those two as they don't have the same impact in term of public reception.

- The overall inevitable savior figure can simply be a result of a particular structure (like One Piece)
- To be a "choosen one" on the other hand, you need to be choosen by an external godly force to create a crazy action in order to accomplish something, then, you need to be selected and given priviledges at all stages of the story, because people know that you will create said action and they will try to help you do it. The chosen one will be given stronger power, not because he worked for it but because... he is the one.

As you can see, in one case, there can still be a struggle and the character needs to really work for it. In the other case, on the contrary, the character will benefit a certain form of priviledge (in Star wars, Anakin will favored by Obi-wan and enter the academy late, in Matrix Neo will be given private lessons). One case demands more merit when the other appears as a facility.

In term of reception, one is therefore more satisfactory than the other.

As for the power, in one case they are gained normally, in the other they are gained... just because of who the character is in the scheme of a prophecy.

So we must distinguish the figure of the savior from the figure of the chosen one.

-----------

Oh... I see some sceptics here. Good ! So first, I will I ask you one question : Why do you think Luffy became Nika ?

Because he was strong enough?
Because he died ?
Because he faced the strongest creature on Vearth ?
Because he is just the main character ?

To those question the answer is NOT EXACTLY. And you will find the reason why, in this page :



Yes, there is a little detail here that is very important to understand why Luffy awakened. People should really take attention to little details, especially when they talk about awakening:

Kaido stated that in order to awaken ones devil fruit, someone's mind and body have to catch up with the fruit. In other word, we are talking here about a synchronization of sort of the mind and body with the fruit.

So yes, in a way, Luffy did awaken because of his strenght and training, but he also and mostly awaken for another reason : his mind.

Zoan devil Fruits have a will of their own and the fruit of Luffy bares the name of the Sun God Nika, the god that brings smiles and fight with freedom. From that, we know that the will of the fruit is fundamentaly centered around the notion of Freedom and fun.

So for Luffy to awaken, he needed to reach a point where he had both in all circounstance ! And that's what Luffy achieved in this fight: Luffy expressing clearly having fun while fighting shows just how much he is starting to see the world : Now.. even fights are fun for him !

And thus.. Luffy managed to synchronize his mind (personnality), Spirit (will) AND body with his fruit. A little restart was all he needed to transform into full Nika mode.

So, why do I talk about the synchronization of the fruit ?

Well.. Because what I'm demonstrating here, is that the fruit did not create the power of Luffy.

It's Luffy himself who managed to synchronize with the fruit

The fruit simply gave him a chance and Luffy, because he is Luffy, took it.

---------------------

Look at it this way:

What happen when you give a javelin to a random kid ?

Well.. they will most likely throw it as far as they can and it will maybe go as far as 15 meters..

But give the javelin to someone whose characteristic will be able to make full use of the spear and...


The devil fruit is the Javelin And Luffy's synchronization is the training.

Luffy because of his training was able to let his body make full use of the devil fruit's properties and because of his jovial and seeking freedom personnality, the fruit naturally opened his power for Luffy.

In other word, this means that the fruit just stopped on someone with a potential, nothing more. The reason why the devil fruit never awaken before, is simply because in 800 years, no one who had the fruit was able to synchronize with it, and there is high chances that the fruit had many.. many users after Joy Boy and before Luffy.

This means that the reason why Luffy unlocked the fruit, is not because he was chosen, it's because Luffy made ALL the work, the right choices and adopt the right personnality to access the full capacity of his fruit.

---------

Now you will say to me : "But the prophecy !"

Well, same thing ! This is a missconception.

A prophecy, unless if meant to have an impact on the story (ex: Harry Potter), will not be the reason why characters are moving toward their goals.

A prophecy is simply a photography of the future. Plus, One Piece seems to be set in an universe where the future can fluctuate, this means that prophecies are not stuck in stone in the manga.

In other words, the presence of a prophecy do not mean that Luffy or anyone else is "the chosen one".

It means that Luffy is the one that someone saw, not "the chosen one".

-----------

So, what does this means ?

Well.. it means that yes, the future is most likely already written in the universe of One Piece, but highly malleable.

Which is the reason why the characters are often wondering if the path of Luffy is

- Sometimes the result of Luffy's actions
- Sometimes the result of Chance
- Sometimes the result of Destiny

I'd say that it is a mix of those three thing. I don't think that Oda want his world to be clear on that. Until the end of his story, chances are that he will not priviledge one option more than the others.

Luffy is indeed very lucky, and we could even say that to some extent, his story shows that the universe favors his path. Which would make the word "destiny" coherent.

But Luffy's victories and life is also the result of who he is, the choice he made and his training.

So while, yes, destiny might play a role in his path (for example by putting the fruit or Shanks on his path)...

This does NOT make Luffy the chosen one. Luffy is favored by luck only because he makes the right choices.


Luffy just happens to be very lucky.

At best, you could say that the fruit senced Luffy's personnality and thus choosed him. But the fruit did not choose him for a great purpose and neither did the universe.

Luffy is just Luffy, he is not like Anakin and he is not like Neo. The fruit happened to be in the near visibility of Luffy, call it will, call it an act of the universe, no matter. Luffy ate the fruit. But at no point the fruit chose Luffy or did anyone chose Luffy because they knew the prophecy.

Only one person did that: Pedro. And it arrives laaaaaate in the story. At a moment where Luffy is already mastering his abilities.

So Luffy is not a chosen one.

He is an inevitable savior figure yes, almost a divinity you could say, but it's just Luffy making the right choices. No one choosed him. And he is not given power because he is Luffy.

Luffy has always been the inevitable savior's figure since the beginning and all the arcs have been created that way.

So Gear 5 doesn't change anything. The Nika reveal does not make Luffy the "chosen one"

- In a "chosen one" scenario the powers are given to the character in the future because of a prophecy in the past.

- In One Piece it's the opposite, it's because of the actions and awakening of the powers by Luffy in the future, that in the past, a prophecy was made.

Do you guys understand the clean nuance here ?

-----

#OnePieceDebunk
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One of the greatest theory I have ever read. Well done Logiko. You owned the haters so bad they might never ever talk about it again out of shame.
 
Logiko

Logiko

‎
#31
#31
Cherry Hilk said:
The problem was associating Luffy to a deity to begin with.
I would have much preferred if he stayed a nemesis of gods, rather than becoming one himself.
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It was inevitable.

The entire story is centered about a conflict of godlike nature. So who better than a god than to beat another god.

One Piece is the story of a boy who literally bends the world to his will. Luffy was therefore a god before being a god, because of the very premisse of the story.

What Oda did, is simply anchored the powers of Luffy into the very lore of the story. Luffy was meant to have those power in the end, the toon force was inevitable the moment Oda drew a rubber boy fighting with goofyness. My guess is that he had the idea right at the creation of the character, it's just make more sence from a storytelling standpoint.

So.. the question is .. how do you integrate such a power into the lore ? Well.. You go full deity, there is no other real option if you want to create something impactfull that creates resonnance with the thematics of oppressions and joy.

Creating a devil fruit without a big background for that capacity wouldve been bland. With Nika, not only Oda creates a powerfull powerup, but here deepens his lore and he creates resonnance with multiple aspect of the mysteries and deepest lore of his story.

This was simply a genius move. There are no other words.

> Luffy is made for One Piece
> One Piece is made for the Gear 5
> The gear 5 is made for Luffy

It's a perfect creation circle.

It's so perfect in it's creation that this revelation created - by a milking technique - ripples in the continuum of the story like gravity waves, in the present and in the future, making us see things in the past (the forms of the gears for ex) of the story and making us expect new things (the powers of Joy Boy for ex) !

I understood that instantly and this is why I made the comment "Odais making history" on that day. This type of perfect creations "circles" are things that very few authors achieved in History.
 
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Kumathegoat

Kumathegoat

‎
#32
#32
K!NG HARA$H!MA said:
Looking for religiously strict definition of Choosen one
:pepeke:
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The Chosen One, also known as The One or The Chosen, is a narrative trope where one character, usually the protagonist, is framed as the inevitable hero or antihero of the story, as a result of destiny, unique gifts, and/or special lineage.[3][4][5][6][7] The trope is similar to the hero's journey template, where the main difference is that The Chosen One usually does not have a choice because of destiny.[3] Chosen One narratives often incorporate Bildungsroman, following the growth of a character from childhood to adulthood.[8][9][10] The character's gifts, lineage or destiny are often unknown at the start of the plot or presented to the audience as dramatic irony. The Chosen One trope is rooted in religion and mythology, and often appears in speculative fiction that uses elements of mythology.[5][7] The Chosen One trope has been compared to the religious concept of messiah.[8][11]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chosen_One_(trope)


Looks Like Luffy to me.
 
Logiko

Logiko

‎
#33
#33
Kumathegoat said:
The Chosen One, also known as The One or The Chosen, is a narrative trope where one character, usually the protagonist, is framed as the inevitable hero or antihero of the story, as a result of destiny, unique gifts, and/or special lineage.[3][4][5][6][7] The trope is similar to the hero's journey template, where the main difference is that The Chosen One usually does not have a choice because of destiny.[3] Chosen One narratives often incorporate Bildungsroman, following the growth of a character from childhood to adulthood.[8][9][10] The character's gifts, lineage or destiny are often unknown at the start of the plot or presented to the audience as dramatic irony. The Chosen One trope is rooted in religion and mythology, and often appears in speculative fiction that uses elements of mythology.[5][7] The Chosen One trope has been compared to the religious concept of messiah.[8][11]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chosen_One_(trope)


Looks Like Luffy to me.
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Yes. But as I explained, this definition is confusing two things that have different impact on the readers. And that's a little bit problematic when we try to show why a specific revelation or plot point is not problematic narratively.

So we need to distinguish two things:

>>

Logiko said:
- The overall inevitable savior figure
- The choosen one (who is really choosen by all aspects of the story)

I think it's important to distinguishing those two as they don't have the same impact in term of public reception.

- The overall inevitable savior figure can simply be a result of a particular structure (like One Piece)
- To be a "choosen one" on the other hand, you need to be choosen by an external godly force to create a crazy action in order to accomplish something, then, you need to be selected and given priviledges at all stages of the story, because people know that you will create said action and they will try to help you do it. The chosen one will be given stronger power, not because he worked for it but because... he is the one.

As you can see, in one case, there can still be a struggle and the character needs to really work for it. In the other case, on the contrary, the character will benefit a certain form of priviledge (in Star wars, Anakin will favored by Obi-wan and enter the academy late, in Matrix Neo will be given private lessons). One case demands more merit when the other appears as a facility.

In term of reception, one is therefore more satisfactory than the other.

As for the power, in one case they are gained normally, in the other they are gained... just because of who the character is in the scheme of a prophecy.

So we must distinguish the figure of the savior from the figure of the chosen one.
Click to expand...
 
Bisoromi Bear

Bisoromi Bear

‎
#34
#34
Kumathegoat said:
The Chosen One, also known as The One or The Chosen, is a narrative trope where one character, usually the protagonist, is framed as the inevitable hero or antihero of the story, as a result of destiny, unique gifts, and/or special lineage.[3][4][5][6][7] The trope is similar to the hero's journey template, where the main difference is that The Chosen One usually does not have a choice because of destiny.[3] Chosen One narratives often incorporate Bildungsroman, following the growth of a character from childhood to adulthood.[8][9][10] The character's gifts, lineage or destiny are often unknown at the start of the plot or presented to the audience as dramatic irony. The Chosen One trope is rooted in religion and mythology, and often appears in speculative fiction that uses elements of mythology.[5][7] The Chosen One trope has been compared to the religious concept of messiah.[8][11]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chosen_One_(trope)


Looks Like Luffy to me.
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Yes

/thread
 
Charlotte Horchata

Charlotte Horchata

‎
#36
#36
How do you conciliate this with events that coincide with Luffy's awakening but are out of his control, such as Poseidon reborning now or sharing the will of D.? Would also mention the straw hat and its significance that, at least from a meta standpoint, gives Lufy a "chosen one" halo.

Logiko said:
So who better than a god than to beat another god.
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I mean, people?
 
Logiko

Logiko

‎
#37
#37
Charlotte Horchata said:
I mean, people?
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Well.. yeah.. you have a point there !! My sentence was dumb. Powerscaling got to me lawl

:toximoji:


Charlotte Horchata said:
How do you conciliate this with events that coincide with Luffy's awakening but are out of his control, such as Poseidon reborning now or sharing the will of D.? Would also mention the straw hat and its significance that, at least from a meta standpoint, gives Lufy a "chosen one" halo.
Click to expand...
Those events and parameters do change anything.

For Poseidon I explained that here:

>>
Logiko said:
- If Shiraoshi gets descendants and the sea stays deep enough to welcome Giant Sea Kings, there is no reason for Poseidon to not reappear in the future since its just a question of geneology and gene inheritance

- Pluton seems to be something dangerous. Unless Franky redraws the plans and share them, there is no reason that it should exist forever. It will be destroyed at one point or another. But something else might be renamed Pluton instead...

- Concerning Uranus.. no idea. It depends on what it is. But since Poseidon is a human and Pluton a machine/ship, Uranus might be something completely different.

For example, Uranus could simply be a devil fruit. And in this case, there is no reason for it to disappear.

Click to expand...
My reasonning is based on the lineage and genealogy of fishmen and mermaids : It was explained that children could take the gene inheritance and traits of long time ancestor in this race. This means that if we consider that Poseidon was born 800 years ago, it's inevitable for another Poseidon to be born again in the future (our present). As long as Poseidon will have children and their children bare children, the gene of Poseidon will pass on and on to infinite. in fact, it might event be passed on human or a mink one day.

(Now that I think about it, it could also be the reason why some Kozuki can control Zunisha, it could be a genetic evolution coming from the Poseidon gene, maybe an artificial evolution ?.. Anyway...)

---

For the hat, it "could" be perceived as a parameter of the chosen one trope, but in reality it isn't. I've explained why before in my thread but I didn't go into too much details.

To be the "choosen one", the character needs to be choosen and priviledged by one or more of his peers and will be granted an immense power ONLY because he was choosen (this is a circular thinking : "I choosed you, therefore you are strong because I choosed you") But One Piece, in fact many stories that we attribute to the "chosen one trope" are not really using it.

In One Piece the trope are those ones for that context: "the inevitable savior" AND the "trusted one". Yes the trusted one, NOT the choosen one. One Piece is about the inheritence of the will, said inheritence is shared through trust and love. Remember what said Shanks to Rayleigh:



What you see here is faith. Faith is Luffy and the New Era. This faith was passed down from Roger and there are big chances that Roger's faith in the Era of Pirate was past down by someone else that we don't know yet.

This New Era is what the Hat represents, a impossible carefree token, remaining symbol from a long past oppression, passed down from generation to generation through love and trust.. to assure a new Dawn for the world.

In other words, the strawhat is not given to a choosen one, it's given to the one we trust the most to make the change : "The trusted one"

In other word, the passing of inheritance and trust are not based on a prophecy or a plan, but on the qualities of the character the hat is given to.

On top of his newly aquired "special" devil fruit, Shanks saw somethings in Luffy, he saw his passion, Joy and courage, his goal that is to become the King of the Pirates, but Luffy also shared his dream with him. Those things combined made Shanks see himself and his Captain in Luffy. Hence why he gave him the hat and put all his faith and trust in him and the new Era

---

Now, for the D. Well.. we don't know much about the D, so it's only speculations:

But what we know is that the D in a name does not mean necessarily that the person will have a epic life.

After all, at least one of Law's parents were D.

It's very possible that the D is nothing more than a mark from the past. A name brand passed down by the family of the ""traitor"" Nefertari D Lili to be a token of the will of the fight against the oppression of the World Government.

It just happen than some members have very exceptionnal lives. But after all, it's also the case of other pirates.

So in this case, it would simply be a conjonction of circumstances.

There is also the possibility that a "gene" was passed down, which could explain why for example Roger and Luffy were able to hear the Sea Kings.

In that case this would be the same scenario as Poseidon, a inevitable awakening of the voice of all thing simply because of a lineage passed down in the D clan.

This would therefore mean again, that there is no "chosen one".

In fact, this might be the reason why there was a big prophecy in the first place. The conjonction of an awakening of the voice of all thing in Luffy or Momo (that seems to happens a lot) and the birth of Poseidon at the SAME time, might have send a vision to someone toward the past. Which allowed them to predict the future about the two sovereign meeting once again.



And in this case, in possible Luffy might not even be the one we are talking about (could be Momo). And even then, it would be once again not a choosen one trope.. but a simple consequence of the future (our present) ripelling down storytelling shockwave toward the past.. allowing someone to predict the future.

It would be very surprising for Oda to say that people who have the D. have a stronger will than others and are therefore more encline to have agency in the story so I'm ruling that one out for now.
 
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