Controversial RELIGIONS & SPIRITUALITIES : Conversations
- Thread starter Logiko
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Hm.. yes we do.
What you are saying is a way to rationnalize the impassibility of "god" in front of suffering. But we DO know what good is.
A omnipotent and infinitely good god should NOT have ANY limits to make good. For example, when policemen are forced to kill a terrorist (and thus doing an act of murder, which is not a good thing) but a necessary one... God should not be forced to do do a cruel thing for a good thing to happen... since they are omnipotent !
This means that no matter the context, there is no context where god can have an excuse to do bad things or to let bad things happen to people.
Hell, for example, is an example of that. The concept of hell is derivated from the notion of punishment. But God, if all loving, should not be allowing this to happen, even to people who have done horrible things.
But that concept of punishment is a very human and anthropomorphic thing. In reality, punishment is only here as an vengefull action against those who act against the "good"... but we now know that people who act against the good.. even horrible people, are simply sometimes pushed by their environment and their biology to do that.. In reality choice is just an illusion.
This means that if God exist, he created some of us to be turn bad because of their environment and will punish them for being created that way.
From my point of view, this is a pure evil behavior. (and a human one)
In reality, An infinitely good entity should be refusing to inflict any pain on anyone and understand that what they created can turn bad and be able to find a way to turn good.
The concept of hell in itself literally destroys completely the potentiality for the infinite good nature of "God".
If the concept of "good" exist, then the classical concept of god can't.
If the classical god exist, then the concept of "good" completely loses its meaning.
What you are saying is a way to rationnalize the impassibility of "god" in front of suffering. But we DO know what good is.
A omnipotent and infinitely good god should NOT have ANY limits to make good. For example, when policemen are forced to kill a terrorist (and thus doing an act of murder, which is not a good thing) but a necessary one... God should not be forced to do do a cruel thing for a good thing to happen... since they are omnipotent !
This means that no matter the context, there is no context where god can have an excuse to do bad things or to let bad things happen to people.
Hell, for example, is an example of that. The concept of hell is derivated from the notion of punishment. But God, if all loving, should not be allowing this to happen, even to people who have done horrible things.
But that concept of punishment is a very human and anthropomorphic thing. In reality, punishment is only here as an vengefull action against those who act against the "good"... but we now know that people who act against the good.. even horrible people, are simply sometimes pushed by their environment and their biology to do that.. In reality choice is just an illusion.
This means that if God exist, he created some of us to be turn bad because of their environment and will punish them for being created that way.
From my point of view, this is a pure evil behavior. (and a human one)
In reality, An infinitely good entity should be refusing to inflict any pain on anyone and understand that what they created can turn bad and be able to find a way to turn good.
The concept of hell in itself literally destroys completely the potentiality for the infinite good nature of "God".
If the concept of "good" exist, then the classical concept of god can't.
If the classical god exist, then the concept of "good" completely loses its meaning.
About free will: it does exist, but it isn't absolute. Biological and environmental factors play a big role in how we behave. This is why we are told to be vigilant. Consciousness is what makes us distinct from animals. As long as you are aware of your behavior, you have choices, therefore you have free will. Yeah, addicts and mentally ill people don't have free will. Free will is something that can be taken from us.
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If God real why bad thing happen
@Logiko Watch this. It isn't a Christian interpretation, but it makes a lot of sense and there is similarity with Christianity. Also, great quality content. Doc K is a chad.
I think i linked the wrong video. I will try to find the video that he talks about free will,yogic teachings and science later on.
Our definitions of good and bad change all the time. We can't be objective about it.
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Hm.. yes we do.
What you are saying is a way to rationnalize the impassibility of "god" in front of suffering. But we DO know what good is.
What you are saying is a way to rationnalize the impassibility of "god" in front of suffering. But we DO know what good is.
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That's - once again - something to rationnalize the impassibility of God in front of suffering.
First, this ignore the fact that a lot of people are suffering not because of the actions of others but because of natural disasters. Disasters created by god themselves.
Second, even if we consider freewill as real thing (which it's not, I'll come back to that), the reality is that the intervention of God would absolutely not negate the respect of free will.
That's the Superman conundrum. When Superman stops a bad guy from doing a bad thing, does he negate their free will to do said bad thing ? No.
This means that even having an infinite power is NEVER an excuse not to act in front of oppression.
If god was really infinitely good and omnipotent AND infinitely full of love of everyone, he should be able to prevent anyone from being suffering because of others or natural causes or natural disasters. We should be already all be living in a paradise.
But that's not the case.
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Now.. Free will do not exist.
And the reason is simple : the electrical and biological interaction in the brain that form consciousness are determined by a combinasion of the influence of our genes (not controllable), our environment (not controllable) and the interior physical interaction of matter in our brain (not controllable).
On top of that, this combination of factor creates a biological and electrical reaction that is prior to our awareness of said interaction.
In other word, we do not have will, we have the illusion of will. Our consciousness and the illusion of free will is the projection of what happens in our brain.
And all of that is confirmed by one of the fundamental laws of the Universe. If free will really existed, it would mean that we would mean that our brain, as an entity, would be able to create ex nihilo a form of energy to influence the interaction of the material world in your brain.
In other other words, if free will existed, it would mean that we possess the power of a god in our brain.
And I'm sorry, but if my condition proves something, is that the brain is not enough to create ex-nihilo a Will that has the power to overcome the influence of the environment and matter.
We are not gods.
It's not, conciousness is a spectra with us on the end of one side and animals scattered in between the other side and the middle ground.
Wow.. yeah that's an highly problematic thought. Nice way to dehumanize people in difficulty and rationnalize the worst atrocities on those people.
I'm sorry but if free will exist. you and me are on the same level on that front. But that's not the case.
So using freewill to justify the impassibility of God is not a good argument, it's just a way to rationnalize their inaction.
I think that we can all agree that what is good is what creates positivity and a better conditions for people. No matter the culture, this should be a common understanding.
Now, some people are calling good things that others are not. For example, some consider some conservatist actions good, when other do not. But even in this context, good is not relative as some actions are hurting others. Those doing those actions are therefore wrong to call those actions "good".
But if good can't be defined and objectively observed and God is infinitely good, then the notion of good loses completely it's meaning and if I hurt my neightboor for no reasons, but I say that i'm doing it "for good", I'll be right.
That's why I says that the existence of a classical god completely destroys the meaning of the notion of goodness.
First, this ignore the fact that a lot of people are suffering not because of the actions of others but because of natural disasters. Disasters created by god themselves.
Second, even if we consider freewill as real thing (which it's not, I'll come back to that), the reality is that the intervention of God would absolutely not negate the respect of free will.
That's the Superman conundrum. When Superman stops a bad guy from doing a bad thing, does he negate their free will to do said bad thing ? No.
This means that even having an infinite power is NEVER an excuse not to act in front of oppression.
If god was really infinitely good and omnipotent AND infinitely full of love of everyone, he should be able to prevent anyone from being suffering because of others or natural causes or natural disasters. We should be already all be living in a paradise.
But that's not the case.
-------
Now.. Free will do not exist.
And the reason is simple : the electrical and biological interaction in the brain that form consciousness are determined by a combinasion of the influence of our genes (not controllable), our environment (not controllable) and the interior physical interaction of matter in our brain (not controllable).
On top of that, this combination of factor creates a biological and electrical reaction that is prior to our awareness of said interaction.
In other word, we do not have will, we have the illusion of will. Our consciousness and the illusion of free will is the projection of what happens in our brain.
And all of that is confirmed by one of the fundamental laws of the Universe. If free will really existed, it would mean that we would mean that our brain, as an entity, would be able to create ex nihilo a form of energy to influence the interaction of the material world in your brain.
In other other words, if free will existed, it would mean that we possess the power of a god in our brain.
And I'm sorry, but if my condition proves something, is that the brain is not enough to create ex-nihilo a Will that has the power to overcome the influence of the environment and matter.
We are not gods.
It's not, conciousness is a spectra with us on the end of one side and animals scattered in between the other side and the middle ground.
Wow.. yeah that's an highly problematic thought. Nice way to dehumanize people in difficulty and rationnalize the worst atrocities on those people.
I'm sorry but if free will exist. you and me are on the same level on that front. But that's not the case.
So using freewill to justify the impassibility of God is not a good argument, it's just a way to rationnalize their inaction.
I think that we can all agree that what is good is what creates positivity and a better conditions for people. No matter the culture, this should be a common understanding.
Now, some people are calling good things that others are not. For example, some consider some conservatist actions good, when other do not. But even in this context, good is not relative as some actions are hurting others. Those doing those actions are therefore wrong to call those actions "good".
But if good can't be defined and objectively observed and God is infinitely good, then the notion of good loses completely it's meaning and if I hurt my neightboor for no reasons, but I say that i'm doing it "for good", I'll be right.
That's why I says that the existence of a classical god completely destroys the meaning of the notion of goodness.
Yes, that's an idea that I'm actually TRYING to use daily. (I will watch the video later)
Since I'm not able to have motivation, I'm trying to influence my brain in order to create said motivation. Sadly, this does not work well.. mainly because I think I don't have the method. But technically yes, this is a very good idea..
But it's does not change the deterministic situation of our will. What it is in reality is a form of resonnance of the impact of the combinason of what I talked about previously on itself. A double loop if you prefer.
I made a little drawing to illustrate
Imagine that this is a circuit, the black lines are the circuit, the red arrow the vectors of the balls in blue in the circuit. The purple thing is a spring mechanism
As you might understand here, the power of inertia will bring the blue balls to make a swing on the loop but when the blue ball will arrive, they will punch spring forward and make blue ball that are coming in jump into the funnel and therefore potentially completely change the trajectory of some of them.
Well this is what happens in reality. in our brain when we choose to influence our own "free will". It's the combinaison of our genes, enviornment and the physic that will change our behavior in order for said behavior to influence the environment that will influence itself. Just like the red arrows are shaping here the system in order for the circuit to influence the trajectory of the ball (the signals in our brain).
Since I'm not able to have motivation, I'm trying to influence my brain in order to create said motivation. Sadly, this does not work well.. mainly because I think I don't have the method. But technically yes, this is a very good idea..
But it's does not change the deterministic situation of our will. What it is in reality is a form of resonnance of the impact of the combinason of what I talked about previously on itself. A double loop if you prefer.
I made a little drawing to illustrate
Imagine that this is a circuit, the black lines are the circuit, the red arrow the vectors of the balls in blue in the circuit. The purple thing is a spring mechanism
As you might understand here, the power of inertia will bring the blue balls to make a swing on the loop but when the blue ball will arrive, they will punch spring forward and make blue ball that are coming in jump into the funnel and therefore potentially completely change the trajectory of some of them.
Well this is what happens in reality. in our brain when we choose to influence our own "free will". It's the combinaison of our genes, enviornment and the physic that will change our behavior in order for said behavior to influence the environment that will influence itself. Just like the red arrows are shaping here the system in order for the circuit to influence the trajectory of the ball (the signals in our brain).
"""> You can't be full of love for people and be impassible in front of their suffering. It's a logical contradiction.
> You can't be omnipotent and be incapable of acting
> You can't be infinitely good and be impassible and inactive in front of sufferings.
Etc."""
I dont know you concluded that impassible = incapabls of acting = inactive
Impassible just mean he doesnt change
> You can't be omnipotent and be incapable of acting
> You can't be infinitely good and be impassible and inactive in front of sufferings.
Etc."""
I dont know you concluded that impassible = incapabls of acting = inactive
Impassible just mean he doesnt change
Oh yes, my bad. So, what does God do for people under a genocide ?
Just watched your video.. and it actually gave me a glimps of hope to get out of my problem. Since I recognize behaviors that I was indeed doing and thing that I never thought about.
If what he said works. This could be life changing for me.
Just watched your video.. and it actually gave me a glimps of hope to get out of my problem. Since I recognize behaviors that I was indeed doing and thing that I never thought about.
If what he said works. This could be life changing for me.
Nope,i don't think we can understand God,but we can understand his actions and motives. Example: When God called for Tribes to be exterminated, what were those people doing that called for such drastic measures? Well...back in those days lots of them practiced human sacrifice as a way to atone for their sins. I think that is a hardcore sin.
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