Controversial RELIGIONS & SPIRITUALITIES : Conversations
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And ? It's like me sayin that if Israel is murdering Palestinian, we don't have to intervene because it's those states own doing.
It's a rationnalization of non-intervention in front of oppression.
In this case:
- Either god is infinitely good and they should be intervening in front of suffering since they have the power
- Either god is not infinitely good and it explains why they don't.
You can't be infinitely good and infinitely loving and explain that you won't do anything in front of oppression and suffering often caused by things that you yourself (as god) set into motion (like natural disasters), and say that it's the fault of your own children.
It's sociopathic gaslighting 101 on an universal scale.
It's a rationnalization of non-intervention in front of oppression.
In this case:
- Either god is infinitely good and they should be intervening in front of suffering since they have the power
- Either god is not infinitely good and it explains why they don't.
You can't be infinitely good and infinitely loving and explain that you won't do anything in front of oppression and suffering often caused by things that you yourself (as god) set into motion (like natural disasters), and say that it's the fault of your own children.
It's sociopathic gaslighting 101 on an universal scale.
It is the freedom man reclaimed for himself. God is not a superhero and doesn't act like one, but reward and punishment will be given at the end. These Palestinians will be rewarded, if they lived according to his Word. 90% of the Israeli population approves the genocide, so you know how it will go down for them. Natural disasters are part of this life sadly, where they day of death and judgement can appear anytime. You are looking at this from an earthly and atheistic perspective, which doesn't make sense.
What freedom ? The freedom to choose ? Ok. Nobody is saying that God should take that away.
We ask them to intervene. Meaning by that not staying muted and passible in front of oppression. When people are calling your name for help, your are not being good for letting them die, you are being the OPPOSITE.
Intervention do NOT negate agency.
This reasonning is a way to to rationnalize the lack of intervention of God and excuse their psychopathic behavior.
Rewarding someone because they have been atrociously murdered, tortured, dismembered or decapitated and saw children and family die is NOT kindness, it's psychopathic and sociopathic behavior !
No matter the nature of the eternal reward you gave them. It's a way to justify the idea that to have something good, you need to suffer for it. This is one of the basis of capitalism and the reason why our world is a land of chaos and misery in some places.
To give you a image :
What God is doing here, is like what Mister Beast seems to have done:
"I'll give you 300 000 $ just if you manage to stay in a room for 3 days, that we don't turn the light off, that we put stinky sh*t in the room, that we record you 24/7, that we ask you to be funny at all time, that we will put you on a Treadmill to do a marathon for 3 hours when you are in reality exhausted etc."
There is a reason why the guy who accepted said in an interview that this was a literal torture (close to a war crime), and he was taking advantage on because he had no money !
This behavior is NOT GOOD. It's the opposite of being good. It's using the suffering of people as a way to manipulate people into thinking that their suffering is the reason why they will be rewarded.
It's a way to legitimize suffering ! It's not benevolance, it's a torture game !
If you are really infinitely good, you do NOT ask for people to suffer and you do NOT let people suffer to be rewarded. You give them heaven ON THE SPOT.
No. If we look at the world on a deistic point of view, natural disasters are god's creation and part of "god's plan". So Natural disasters happen because of GOD.
There is absolutely NO excuse for an all good and all loving divine entity to stay silent, impassible and inactive in front of suffering caused by THEIR actions.
Again.
What I'm describing is the behavior of someone who is NOT good but the opposite. And it can be observed objectively.
BUT
If good can't be defined objectively and God is infinitely good, it therefore renders the notion of "good" completely meaningless.
Therefore in both case, the notion of classical god (who doesn't no intervene for our own good and created hell to punish) is perfectly incoherente and illogical.
> If good can be objectively defined, therefore God is NOT good, because of their inaction and irresponsibility.
> If good can't be objectively defined, God can NOT be infinitely good because it would be incoherent
Therefore either God is objectively doing bad things, either it's an incoherent concept.
In both case, the notion of a God that we should respect for his benevolence is illogical.
(I knew I shoudn't lurk on this thread)
We ask them to intervene. Meaning by that not staying muted and passible in front of oppression. When people are calling your name for help, your are not being good for letting them die, you are being the OPPOSITE.
Intervention do NOT negate agency.
This reasonning is a way to to rationnalize the lack of intervention of God and excuse their psychopathic behavior.
Rewarding someone because they have been atrociously murdered, tortured, dismembered or decapitated and saw children and family die is NOT kindness, it's psychopathic and sociopathic behavior !
No matter the nature of the eternal reward you gave them. It's a way to justify the idea that to have something good, you need to suffer for it. This is one of the basis of capitalism and the reason why our world is a land of chaos and misery in some places.
To give you a image :
What God is doing here, is like what Mister Beast seems to have done:
"I'll give you 300 000 $ just if you manage to stay in a room for 3 days, that we don't turn the light off, that we put stinky sh*t in the room, that we record you 24/7, that we ask you to be funny at all time, that we will put you on a Treadmill to do a marathon for 3 hours when you are in reality exhausted etc."
There is a reason why the guy who accepted said in an interview that this was a literal torture (close to a war crime), and he was taking advantage on because he had no money !
This behavior is NOT GOOD. It's the opposite of being good. It's using the suffering of people as a way to manipulate people into thinking that their suffering is the reason why they will be rewarded.
It's a way to legitimize suffering ! It's not benevolance, it's a torture game !
If you are really infinitely good, you do NOT ask for people to suffer and you do NOT let people suffer to be rewarded. You give them heaven ON THE SPOT.
No. If we look at the world on a deistic point of view, natural disasters are god's creation and part of "god's plan". So Natural disasters happen because of GOD.
There is absolutely NO excuse for an all good and all loving divine entity to stay silent, impassible and inactive in front of suffering caused by THEIR actions.
Again.
What I'm describing is the behavior of someone who is NOT good but the opposite. And it can be observed objectively.
BUT
If good can't be defined objectively and God is infinitely good, it therefore renders the notion of "good" completely meaningless.
Therefore in both case, the notion of classical god (who doesn't no intervene for our own good and created hell to punish) is perfectly incoherente and illogical.
> If good can be objectively defined, therefore God is NOT good, because of their inaction and irresponsibility.
> If good can't be objectively defined, God can NOT be infinitely good because it would be incoherent
Therefore either God is objectively doing bad things, either it's an incoherent concept.
In both case, the notion of a God that we should respect for his benevolence is illogical.
(I knew I shoudn't lurk on this thread)
You are not rewarded because you were oppressed, you are only rewarded for your faith and for following His Word. Martyrdom for example isn't something like an insurace you receive after receiving an injury, it's because it is a supreme testimony of faith. The word literally means testimony, that's what it is about. A world where everything is good and nothing bad happens isn't possible without accepting Him, and we were exiled for disobeying Him. Only people who accept Him can live in such a world, and people who don't are condemning themselves to an imperfect, painful existence.
That's even worst. It means that some will suffer and receive a reward and others can simply go screw themselves.
It means that the entity ("God") is not being good for free, but on conditions.
This negate the logic of the "infinitely good part". This is the antithesis of what a good god should be.
Case and point. Literal gaslighting and psychopatic behavior. Imagine a toxic parent that beats you up and let others beat you up saying that they will stop every harm done to you and you will live more happily only if you accept them as a parent.
Like... Wuat ?
Double case and point !
This god literally didn't liked the fact that we disobeyed them and followed that up by doing a literal Ethnic cleansing (displacing people against their will is considered a crime against humanity)
Literally the definition of being not loving and not good.
How can anyone be okay to support such a "god" ?
It means that the entity ("God") is not being good for free, but on conditions.
This negate the logic of the "infinitely good part". This is the antithesis of what a good god should be.
Case and point. Literal gaslighting and psychopatic behavior. Imagine a toxic parent that beats you up and let others beat you up saying that they will stop every harm done to you and you will live more happily only if you accept them as a parent.
Like... Wuat ?
Double case and point !
This god literally didn't liked the fact that we disobeyed them and followed that up by doing a literal Ethnic cleansing (displacing people against their will is considered a crime against humanity)
Literally the definition of being not loving and not good.
How can anyone be okay to support such a "god" ?
You can't be accepted by something you keep rejecting, it's only natural. It's a matter of choice. At the end of the day the choice is yours, the door is open.
He isn't really beating you up, but giving you a shot at eternal life. You don't even have to be his child unless you want it, so it's your choice again. I understand that freedom of choice is hard to understand for left-wings extremists, but the Church is not Maoist China.
Case and point. Literal gaslighting and psychopatic behavior. Imagine a toxic parent that beats you up and let others beat you up saying that they will stop every harm done to you and you will live more happily only if you accept them as a parent.
Like... Wuat ?
Like... Wuat ?
How can you follow His Word without having faith? You are not making any sense here. Surely, not accepting him cannot result in anything good. They are not being benevolent to themselves in the first place.
Sadly, "far left" propaganda has been dismantling the concept of individual consequences for decades.
Sadly, "far left" propaganda has been dismantling the concept of individual consequences for decades.
No it's not.
If we take the divine vision of the world. There is literally a life of pain and misery creating specifically by the entity that we don't want to accept if we don't accept them.
In other words, it's : "
- If you accept me (God), I will make you suffer, but you will be rewarded
- If you don't accepted me, I will make you suffer and I will make you suffer even more in hell"
That's not a choice, that's a threat and pure gaslighting.
Of course they are !
In a divine vision of the world : What do you call an earthquake that buries you and your family under a tons of concrete ?
"God is not killing you, God is just putting you in front of the choice of accepting God'sgaslighting and psychopathy or throwing you down to hell to suffer eternally" Vibes.
No it's not.
Again, in the divine vision of life, natural disasters happen because of God. So if we get killed because of them, it's not our choice.
And factually, we do not have free will, which means that the our actions are determined by something Gods literally put in motion. So they are taking us for responsible for something they did.
What is really common sence is the fact that sayin : "I will hurt you ! If you accept me, I will stop, but if you don't, I will hurt you even more and that will be your fault" is considered UNIVERSALY on the planet as an act of hyper abuse and gaslighting.
I just find it very strange that people will find any excuse to support such a behavior.
Why ? If I love my children but they don't accept me, it will not try to make them love me more and I will not let them suffer.
Love does not comes with options - If you love, you care and you TAKE care.
If your care is conditionnal, then it's not infinite love, it's a projection of your desires.
And in the case of this classical god, creating suffering just to create love is the opposite of love and benevolence.
If we take the divine vision of the world. There is literally a life of pain and misery creating specifically by the entity that we don't want to accept if we don't accept them.
In other words, it's : "
- If you accept me (God), I will make you suffer, but you will be rewarded
- If you don't accepted me, I will make you suffer and I will make you suffer even more in hell"
That's not a choice, that's a threat and pure gaslighting.
Of course they are !
In a divine vision of the world : What do you call an earthquake that buries you and your family under a tons of concrete ?
"God is not killing you, God is just putting you in front of the choice of accepting God'sgaslighting and psychopathy or throwing you down to hell to suffer eternally" Vibes.
No it's not.
Again, in the divine vision of life, natural disasters happen because of God. So if we get killed because of them, it's not our choice.
And factually, we do not have free will, which means that the our actions are determined by something Gods literally put in motion. So they are taking us for responsible for something they did.
What is really common sence is the fact that sayin : "I will hurt you ! If you accept me, I will stop, but if you don't, I will hurt you even more and that will be your fault" is considered UNIVERSALY on the planet as an act of hyper abuse and gaslighting.
I just find it very strange that people will find any excuse to support such a behavior.
Why ? If I love my children but they don't accept me, it will not try to make them love me more and I will not let them suffer.
Love does not comes with options - If you love, you care and you TAKE care.
If your care is conditionnal, then it's not infinite love, it's a projection of your desires.
And in the case of this classical god, creating suffering just to create love is the opposite of love and benevolence.
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This is a qouting mess, if you don’t have a good response could have just said you don’t lol
Anyways
If you’re going to be consistent you should also do away with believing in love, justice, evil, honesty and so on since they cannot be proven with empirical evidence. I’m basically trying to show you how utterly baseless it is to deny God’s existence with such a contradictory worldview.
Now moving on the question you asked, the belief in God is actually an innate intuition, one found in virtually every corner of the world, even young Japanese kids as young as 4 or 5 believe in God according to studies such as the “Children see the world as it is designed” study which showcased that kids in Japan believe in God as the originator/creator of the universe.
Were they indoctrinated already? We know Japan is like borderline atheist with some lingering Shintoism, with Shintoism not having any sort of creator in their theology.
Anyways
- “Because it is” I just demonstrated how it is not via the fact that current theories can later be falsified with new observations. Secondly science fails to empirically prove or explain intuitive/moral truths, so if you believe only with evidence you have a problem justifying your belief in the most basic intuitive truths.
- “It being a self improving system is one of the pros not a con” yeah maybe when it comes to understanding how the observable world works but not when it comes to realities that can’t be experimented on. Again science is inherently capped because it relies on dealing with empirical data and the observable world.
If you’re going to be consistent you should also do away with believing in love, justice, evil, honesty and so on since they cannot be proven with empirical evidence. I’m basically trying to show you how utterly baseless it is to deny God’s existence with such a contradictory worldview.
Now moving on the question you asked, the belief in God is actually an innate intuition, one found in virtually every corner of the world, even young Japanese kids as young as 4 or 5 believe in God according to studies such as the “Children see the world as it is designed” study which showcased that kids in Japan believe in God as the originator/creator of the universe.
Were they indoctrinated already? We know Japan is like borderline atheist with some lingering Shintoism, with Shintoism not having any sort of creator in their theology.
You are NOT reading, perhaps you are projecting your own beliefs onto my replies?
I told you that suffering per se isn't a requirement for salvation, you ignored it and keep obsessing over it.
I told you that you don't even have to be a child of God if you don't want it, you ignored it and keep talking as if everybody is.
You can keep spamming your keywords abuse, oppression and gaslightning 1000 more times and I will keep not being moved in the slightest.
I told you that suffering per se isn't a requirement for salvation, you ignored it and keep obsessing over it.
I told you that you don't even have to be a child of God if you don't want it, you ignored it and keep talking as if everybody is.
You can keep spamming your keywords abuse, oppression and gaslightning 1000 more times and I will keep not being moved in the slightest.
Yes. I understood that. What I'm telling you is that suffering is a threat.
In other words if I do not accept god, I WILL suffer.... because of God in the first place.
In other words, there is no choice. It's God or suffering.. created by god.
Yes, I fully understood that. What I'm telling you, again, is that there is no choice.
"You can choose eternal paradise or eternal damnation". Eternal damnation is not a choice, it's a threat.
I love, respect and call my parents "my parents" because they respected me, cared for me and raised me, not because they made me.
What God - in the divine vision of the world - is doing, is the opposite of that:
- They threaten
- They banish
- They create sufferings
- They kill
- They don't care
- They gaslight
But... "they infinitely love you".
No. This is not love. This is psychopathy and sociopathy.
I'm not trying to move you. I'm telling you what my vision of god is.
If this "god" really existed, it would only be a question of time until they are put down.
Suffering is a simple result of evolution. It's the result of physical electrical signals triggered by real phenomenon that goes to our brain and create a urge to avoid said trigger. This creates an illusion in our consciousness that we call suffering. This illusion in return can create real diverse physical reactions. After that, suffering can be simply used by animals to hurt other animals.
In other words if I do not accept god, I WILL suffer.... because of God in the first place.
In other words, there is no choice. It's God or suffering.. created by god.
Yes, I fully understood that. What I'm telling you, again, is that there is no choice.
"You can choose eternal paradise or eternal damnation". Eternal damnation is not a choice, it's a threat.
I love, respect and call my parents "my parents" because they respected me, cared for me and raised me, not because they made me.
What God - in the divine vision of the world - is doing, is the opposite of that:
- They threaten
- They banish
- They create sufferings
- They kill
- They don't care
- They gaslight
But... "they infinitely love you".
No. This is not love. This is psychopathy and sociopathy.
I'm not trying to move you. I'm telling you what my vision of god is.
If this "god" really existed, it would only be a question of time until they are put down.
Suffering is a simple result of evolution. It's the result of physical electrical signals triggered by real phenomenon that goes to our brain and create a urge to avoid said trigger. This creates an illusion in our consciousness that we call suffering. This illusion in return can create real diverse physical reactions. After that, suffering can be simply used by animals to hurt other animals.