General & Others How many people think it’s fine that Oda fumbled Zoro in Wano?

What do you think?

  • It’s a knock on Oda to have fumbled this badly

    Votes: 33 68.8%
  • It’s completely fine that Oda didn’t do well. He couldn’t even think of anything since it’s Zoro

    Votes: 3 6.3%
  • Oda did absolutely Nothing wrong, how dare you criticize Goda?

    Votes: 12 25.0%

  • Total voters
    48
#81
I understand that having unrealistic expectations usually sets you up for disappointment, but most of my expectations were from the story. My comment was moreso about the factual connections Zoro has with Wano that go further and deeper than Chopper's with Zou.

The Zoro and Chopper comparison would be more apt if: Zou were not only inhabited by anthromorphic animals, but also had some of the best doctors in the world as well, and they had medical techniques that are mostly unknown. Significant figures of the world made mentions of their medical prowess just as Akainu did for the samurai of Wano. Drum Island, which has some of the best doctors of the Grand Line, got their medical practices and knowledge primarily from Zou, and Chopper's work in the field was the same to those as Zou.

All of this to say that it's rather strange to hype up Wano's swordsmanship, something Zoro heavily appreciates, to the point where even Akainu declined Kizalu's offer to go there not because of Kaido and Big Mom, but thanks to the supposed power of the samurai. Yet despite all this, Oda never delivered on the hype he created for Wano, and Zoro barely shows any interest of anything sword related in Wano besides how Ryuma created a Black Blade, which was short-lived, and the cursed sword that was basically forgotten after Guffy gets his ass handed to him by Kaidk. That's not to mention the actual dropped plot threads that have no conclusion. Zoro never visited Ryuma grave as far as we know. Zoro never mentions how he feels about the Yasuie situation after the conclusion of the war despite the previous acts making a big deal out of their relationship. Zoro doesn't show any care about Hiyori's dilemma and aftermath with Orochi despite giving his ear to hear her plight of wanting to take down Orochi. All of these things, potential and realized, that had to deal with Zoro were simply scrapped to the wayside. While Zoro did exceed my expectations in terms of power, his narrative impact unfortunately contrasts his performance in battle.

Though I do get your point in that Ussop has shown more anticipation for going to Elbaf, that's not exactly his dream island as his dream "to be the bravest warrior of the sea" won't succeed just because he arrives in Elbaf and gets to know the brave Elbaf warriors. Ussop's dream is an internal one, and Ussop may not even succeed in Elbaf. There's no guarantee that he will accomplish his goal in Elbaf unlike how Zoro would do so if he defeats Mihawk.
Also, Zoro didn't get the privilege of learning from a Swordmaster or Swordsmith in wano
And we know for a fact that's was an option because Luffy did
Like think about it we could have in character explanation through this why Zoro should been more interested in exploring the Islands they visit and maybe humbling himself in how learning other cultures and people better it could improve his swordship, like he did with Kinemon when he encountered his fire technique. Which would he have also perfect opportunity with another plot thread, him gathering the samurai of wano that want to rebel against Kaido like he said in Zou to luffy while the other part of the crew was in Zou.
Which also went nowhere. Obviously, people will have different opinions on this but Egghead also drove this home for me.

There is a common theory in shounen manga that the first/beginning of the final arc in shounen will highlight the characters and themes that the author gives a fuck about. I subscribe to that theory personally, like the mangaka will be planing out the end so the things that are important to him and what he thinks matters for the end will surface, either by choice or just where his mind is. If you now go and read egghead from start to finish (which should not take that long), without me influencing you, I think you will get a very clear picture of which characters, SHs, themes, and so on oda wants to write and wants to involve in the mainplot and which ones not. Like I remember people were coping Zoros treatment being a "wano" problem that will be resolved, but clearly that's not the case.

But to stick on topic one thing that also hurt Zoros character, which is ironic if you think about the large portion of the user base here, is Zoros tie to Luffy. This was a begin from start, don't get me wrong, every SH is tied to each other and to a larger extend to Luffy, but Zoro becomes almost an auxiliary character to Luffy where he never can drive the plot or his own thing on his own because he is Luffy Nr. 1 Fan. EVEN with Yasuie, the one character Zoro exclusively spends time together. Remember who got a bigger "Don-Don!" scene with him that they shouldn't laugh? Luffy with the "you shouldn't laugh at a man dying". Fighting against Lucci? "You are not strong enough to Fight Luffy" Even the off-the cuff line last chapter that caused a stir? Its a line about Luffy, who is not even present. And no, this is not a SH problem, others do still plotlines on their own without ties to Luffy.

I feel like at this point, reading Wano and egghead back to back I feel confident in saying that Oda finished writing Zoro after TB/The timeskip and sees him only in that role, which is a shame, he was certainly one of the most strongly written characters before the TS. Now it feels like oda cant even bothered to write for him.

Side note I also wonder how much of a chicken and egg problem this is. In Bleach, Hitsugaya was a very popular character. And it was very transparent at a certain point that Kubo just gave him "aura" moments and just showed him and Momo together, because that was a fan favorite pairing, and that's it and he keep topping the charts despite his character going fucking nowhere the whole manga after his initial debut. I wonder if Oda does the same at this point.
 
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#82
Why didn't Oda just have King say Zoro can't hurt him in flame mode if he can't?
Because this is a badly written fight where Oda himself doesn’t know what he’s doing

I must repeat this because I know you’re ignoring it. ZORO SAYS HE CANNOT DAMAGE A LUNARIAN

These are ZORO’S WORDS

You are reading the above panels and thinking King says he can be dmaaged when he didn’t say that… in fact Zoro ALSO never says he can damage king

What Zoro does say in Egghead IS THAT HE CANNOT DO IT

And btw he’s not just saying random shit, he immediately fights a lunarian after saying he can’t damage one FOR 12 hours And the lunarian is shown UNDAMAGED 12 hours later… So Zoro did in fact NOT DAMAGE a single Seraphim after hours of fighting one
 
#83
The fact that Zoro didn't even meet and have a discussion with a master swordsman never sat right with me. It didn't make any sense for Luffy to meet someone like Hyogoro while Zoro didn't. The land of samurai and sword fighting and Zoro didn't learn anything new the breath of all things, somehow learned ryuo while not even training for it, not visiting Ryuma's grave, same with Yasuie. He also doesn't even mention Yasui even once.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#84
The fact that Zoro didn't even meet and have a discussion with a master swordsman never sat right with me. It didn't make any sense for Luffy to meet someone like Hyogoro while Zoro didn't. The land of samurai and sword fighting and Zoro didn't learn anything new the breath of all things, somehow learned ryuo while not even training for it, not visiting Ryuma's grave, same with Yasuie. He also doesn't even mention Yasui even once.
We had the wrong expectations for Wano.
We thought this would be a land that represents the peak of swordsmen, the mighty samurai.
Instead, Wano represents the opposite, the land of failures "who found comfort in death".

All that Wano could offer Zoro already happened in Frostmoon village, inhabited by folks from Wano before disaster descended on it.
Not going to Ryuma's grave is indeed a wasted opportunity as well as bigger plotline with Yasuie, the only remaining Shimotsuki in Wano.
In the end, seems like Oda doesn't put much thought, if any, into anything that ain't core of the story and even those things end up disappointing.
 
#85
We had the wrong expectations for Wano.
We thought this would be a land that represents the peak of swordsmen, the mighty samurai.
Instead, Wano represents the opposite, the land of failures "who found comfort in death".

All that Wano could offer Zoro already happened in Frostmoon village, inhabited by folks from Wano before disaster descended on it.
Not going to Ryuma's grave is indeed a wasted opportunity as well as bigger plotline with Yasuie, the only remaining Shimotsuki in Wano.
In the end, seems like Oda doesn't put much thought, if any, into anything that ain't core of the story and even those things end up disappointing.
Regarding the first paragraph, it's certainly true that the samurai where weak, and Zoro was already stronger than every one of them but still, Hyogoro was an old strong figure, someone like him could've taught Zoro more about swordsmanship as a whole, as I said before the breath thing should've been brought back and explained in details as well as more on ryuo from Zoro's perspective which would've refined his skills. Yasui's case was sad, the fact that Zoro doesn't even mention him from Onigashima till the end was very weird.
 

nik87

Kitetsu Wanker
#86
Regarding the first paragraph, it's certainly true that the samurai where weak, and Zoro was already stronger than every one of them but still, Hyogoro was an old strong figure, someone like him could've taught Zoro more about swordsmanship as a whole, as I said before the breath thing should've been brought back and explained in details as well as more on ryuo from Zoro's perspective which would've refined his skills. Yasui's case was sad, the fact that Zoro doesn't even mention him from Onigashima till the end was very weird.
It seems the only useful thing Zoro learned was that Black Blades are forged and it was a fox who told him that. :shame:
 
#89
Zoro should have been the MC of the arc or at least have as much spotlight as Luffy.

Orochi should have been a cool Shogun / Samurai with a sick design and sword for Zoro to take down. This could have been Zoro's first extreme diff post time skip fight. He could've even lost early like Luffy then get his revenge after unlocking KoH.
 
#91
Outside of expectations for the arc and Zoro, how is it possible that Zoro was so short-changed in the Samurai and Swordsman arc?

It’s like why isn’t Oda criticized more for this? I mean however much you like Oda and think his shit is the ambrosia of the gods, you have to admit that Zoro’s Wano story is severely lacking in many ways. So why is this acceptable?

Seriously it doesn’t even matter how high or low your expectations were for Zoro to begin with, how did the Samurai and Swordsman arc have Zoro doing a bunch of meaningless side-quests and a bad fight at the end and that’s it.

Please I’m really asking, even the Zoro haters, is this acceptable even to you? 4 years and 150 chapters of the closest thing to Zoro having any significance and it’s just a nonsensical fight with nonsense “cool guys feats” and that’s acceptable to you from Oda and Oda did nothing wrong with this abysmal story?

Seriously imagine if you transposed this situation to Usopp in elbaf. 4 years and 150 chapters and the best you got out of Usopp in Elbaf was meaningless side-quests and a bad fight. (Okay Usopp doesn’t even get fights usually so you might think it’s fine but seriously, why does it have to be a bad fight tho? Why shouldn’t Usopp get the best fight of his life in Elbaf? Why settle for a bad one?)

Some people read the above and say “well Usopp is a better written than Zoro so Usopp is more deserving or good development in Elbaf than Zoro had in Wano” and I want you to think about this statement and ask yourself “Isn’t it Oda that’s responsible for the disparity in the writing quality between these characters? Isn’t it Oda who’s to blame for a lack of writing for any character? Why is it simply acceptable for Oda to be a bad writer in some regards for no reason?”
You're just expecting much from zolo and he ain't even the main character LMAO:gokulaugh:
 
#94
Also, Zoro didn't get the privilege of learning from a Swordmaster or Swordsmith in wano
And we know for a fact that's was an option because Luffy did
Like think about it we could have in character explanation through this why Zoro should been more interested in exploring the Islands they visit and maybe humbling himself in how learning other cultures and people better it could improve his swordship, like he did with Kinemon when he encountered his fire technique. Which would he have also perfect opportunity with another plot thread, him gathering the samurai of wano that want to rebel against Kaido like he said in Zou to luffy while the other part of the crew was in Zou.
Which also went nowhere. Obviously, people will have different opinions on this but Egghead also drove this home for me.

There is a common theory in shounen manga that the first/beginning of the final arc in shounen will highlight the characters and themes that the author gives a fuck about. I subscribe to that theory personally, like the mangaka will be planing out the end so the things that are important to him and what he thinks matters for the end will surface, either by choice or just where his mind is. If you now go and read egghead from start to finish (which should not take that long), without me influencing you, I think you will get a very clear picture of which characters, SHs, themes, and so on oda wants to write and wants to involve in the mainplot and which ones not. Like I remember people were coping Zoros treatment being a "wano" problem that will be resolved, but clearly that's not the case.

But to stick on topic one thing that also hurt Zoros character, which is ironic if you think about the large portion of the user base here, is Zoros tie to Luffy. This was a begin from start, don't get me wrong, every SH is tied to each other and to a larger extend to Luffy, but Zoro becomes almost an auxiliary character to Luffy where he never can drive the plot or his own thing on his own because he is Luffy Nr. 1 Fan. EVEN with Yasuie, the one character Zoro exclusively spends time together. Remember who got a bigger "Don-Don!" scene with him that they shouldn't laugh? Luffy with the "you shouldn't laugh at a man dying". Fighting against Lucci? "You are not strong enough to Fight Luffy" Even the off-the cuff line last chapter that caused a stir? Its a line about Luffy, who is not even present. And no, this is not a SH problem, others do still plotlines on their own without ties to Luffy.

I feel like at this point, reading Wano and egghead back to back I feel confident in saying that Oda finished writing Zoro after TB/The timeskip and sees him only in that role, which is a shame, he was certainly one of the most strongly written characters before the TS. Now it feels like oda cant even bothered to write for him.

Side note I also wonder how much of a chicken and egg problem this is. In Bleach, Hitsugaya was a very popular character. And it was very transparent at a certain point that Kubo just gave him "aura" moments and just showed him and Momo together, because that was a fan favorite pairing, and that's it and he keep topping the charts despite his character going fucking nowhere the whole manga after his initial debut. I wonder if Oda does the same at this point.
I agree with everything and have nothing to add but one thing:






L
O
D
A

:lawsigh::lawsigh::risitameh::pepehands:
 
#97
I don't see how Oda fumbled Zoro in this arc. He literally give him coc and a more powerful sword.
a pile of hype moments alone doesn't suffice
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Strength-wise, it was great. Character-wise, Zoro deserved much better. I'm not of the opinion that ZKK was a requirement to improve things, but if Zoro vs King was more built up or Orochi was actually a capable fighter so Zoro could avenge Yasuie, that'd be cool.
Zoro vs Orochi was such a popular theory before we saw how weak and ugly he was, but alas Oda has probably planned all along to make him a weakling who leeched off and deceived Oden to make it to the top, which is fine, can't blame Oda for not following my headcannon, but at least give the King fight some buildup or at the very minimum some growth. The worst part is that Oda probably thinks he did and there's nothing wrong with Zoro's treatment in Wano...
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You're just expecting much from zolo and he ain't even the main character LMAO:gokulaugh:
neither are many other characters who got way more narrative importance than Zoro did in Wano, but Oda's angels have their favorite response and have been spamming it for years now :milaugh:
 
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