Controversial The story shouldn't be named One Piece.
- Thread starter Logiko
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Indeed. The purpose is not to force anyone. If you think that it is, you still do not understand what I propose.
You have your battles, I have mines. I'll try to change what I think needs to change.
Again. You say that word a lot without ever explaining how I'm actually just that. I'm quite a straight forward guy. And I don't wanna brag but in term of values, coherency and cohesion, I'm quite strong. So....
I've explained that multiple time in the Nakama thread back in the days.
Carrot's journey is all about a few thematics:
- Wonder
- The discovering of the sea and it's danger
- Loss of innocence
- Inherited Will
Carrot is a young girl who was completely naive about the sea and her place in the world. Once she made the choice to join Luffy, she discovered a lot of wonder and a lot of danger. She loved every part of it even after the loss of her father figure.
The problem is that Carrot didn't understood the lesson fully and rushed toward danger in the thought to avenge Pedro. This is something that has been teased already in whole cake against Brulee or Katakuri. Carrot is like Luffy, she doesn't think, she rushes. But she is much more naive and was too confident in her own capacities. So, she underestimated her opponent and overestimate her power against Perospero.
She lost, logically. Nekomamushi is not all that, he understand the danger and his capacities.
Now.. Why was she the one to lose ?
Well simple : She needed to lose to understand REALLY that her power are not infinite and that the war is not a playgame but a real danger. This lose and humiliation was Oda telling Carrot that she needs to grow, make a choice in her life and stop seeing the sea just like a fairfest. The sea is both wonderous and dangerous.
Through this loss, Carrot lost the innocent part of her that prevented her to mature into a ruler and possibily a more important character later.
This loss makes perfect sence for her.
You have your battles, I have mines. I'll try to change what I think needs to change.
Again. You say that word a lot without ever explaining how I'm actually just that. I'm quite a straight forward guy. And I don't wanna brag but in term of values, coherency and cohesion, I'm quite strong. So....
I've explained that multiple time in the Nakama thread back in the days.
Carrot's journey is all about a few thematics:
- Wonder
- The discovering of the sea and it's danger
- Loss of innocence
- Inherited Will
Carrot is a young girl who was completely naive about the sea and her place in the world. Once she made the choice to join Luffy, she discovered a lot of wonder and a lot of danger. She loved every part of it even after the loss of her father figure.
The problem is that Carrot didn't understood the lesson fully and rushed toward danger in the thought to avenge Pedro. This is something that has been teased already in whole cake against Brulee or Katakuri. Carrot is like Luffy, she doesn't think, she rushes. But she is much more naive and was too confident in her own capacities. So, she underestimated her opponent and overestimate her power against Perospero.
She lost, logically. Nekomamushi is not all that, he understand the danger and his capacities.
Now.. Why was she the one to lose ?
Well simple : She needed to lose to understand REALLY that her power are not infinite and that the war is not a playgame but a real danger. This lose and humiliation was Oda telling Carrot that she needs to grow, make a choice in her life and stop seeing the sea just like a fairfest. The sea is both wonderous and dangerous.
Through this loss, Carrot lost the innocent part of her that prevented her to mature into a ruler and possibily a more important character later.
This loss makes perfect sence for her.
Carrot, like everyone else in Wano, was just a tool to push the themes of Wano which was legacy and time. The main lesson of Wano was that clinging to the past keeps you trapped in time, so you need to focus on the present to build your future.
Luffy and the SHs as always represents the best aspects of the arc themes while the main villains represents the worst. The SHs allies tend to show corrupted aspects of the theme(for example, Dressrosa's theme was Love and Hate. Law attacked Mingo not because of his love for Corazon, but for his hatred of Mingo so he got punished to show he was wrong.)
The Scabbards all confronted Kaido saying "We are Oden's retainers. We are Oden's vengeance!", and they got punished for it, because they are clinging to the past and ignoring the fact that they are currently Momo's retainers, and later started playing their roles right.
As for Carrot, instead of moving forward like Pedro wanted, she clung to the past and sought out Perospero when she would've been more helpful elsewhere. Because of this, she got punished and removed from the battle. Nekomamushi took charge as the Duke of Zou and had the power to take Pero down.
Luffy and the SHs as always represents the best aspects of the arc themes while the main villains represents the worst. The SHs allies tend to show corrupted aspects of the theme(for example, Dressrosa's theme was Love and Hate. Law attacked Mingo not because of his love for Corazon, but for his hatred of Mingo so he got punished to show he was wrong.)
The Scabbards all confronted Kaido saying "We are Oden's retainers. We are Oden's vengeance!", and they got punished for it, because they are clinging to the past and ignoring the fact that they are currently Momo's retainers, and later started playing their roles right.
As for Carrot, instead of moving forward like Pedro wanted, she clung to the past and sought out Perospero when she would've been more helpful elsewhere. Because of this, she got punished and removed from the battle. Nekomamushi took charge as the Duke of Zou and had the power to take Pero down.
That's fair, I still want to address what Logiko said because he had another reason for his beliefs that didn't make sense to me
But you're right, it was about moving on and learning to put grudges/revenge aside for the greater good, and with that in mind it actually made sense for her to lose the fight and have it be passed on to Neko. I concede on that.
But you're right, it was about moving on and learning to put grudges/revenge aside for the greater good, and with that in mind it actually made sense for her to lose the fight and have it be passed on to Neko. I concede on that.
Indeed. Carrot was also stuck in this idealistic vision of Pedro and refused to move past that. Although she was right to seek to beat Perospero, she didn't have the right mindset and therefore acted for herself rather than the bigger picture.
(which is also why this fight feels so disconnected from the rest)
That's actually a critic I have of the anime as they integrated the Dawn part which removes this aspect of the fight, making the viewer think that she is acting for a bigger purpose when it is only for blind revenge in the manga
(and this is also one of the reasons why I strongly think she will come back in an important matter as usually in stories, character who tend to get lessons like that teached to them, are shown acting in the right path later on, thus showing us that they grew. But we didn't have that. And that's very strange)
(which is also why this fight feels so disconnected from the rest)
That's actually a critic I have of the anime as they integrated the Dawn part which removes this aspect of the fight, making the viewer think that she is acting for a bigger purpose when it is only for blind revenge in the manga
(and this is also one of the reasons why I strongly think she will come back in an important matter as usually in stories, character who tend to get lessons like that teached to them, are shown acting in the right path later on, thus showing us that they grew. But we didn't have that. And that's very strange)
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That would be true if this situation was not also supported by an entire characterization with different thematics throughout whole cake and Zou. This defeat, like I explained, is more than just a thematic growth on the past, it's also the loss of innocent and a reflexion on the way Carrot sees the world. Because as you can see, Carrot didn't not only lose, but was humiliated and trashed on precisely on this aspect of her personality by Perospero.
While yes, Carrot is used as a thematic tool in Wano AND a thematic tool in whole cake. She is also bigger than that in between and that's why it is such an interesting character and potentially a very important one.
In my dreams maybe
While yes, Carrot is used as a thematic tool in Wano AND a thematic tool in whole cake. She is also bigger than that in between and that's why it is such an interesting character and potentially a very important one.
In my dreams maybe
Indeed. The purpose is not to force anyone. If you think that it is, you still do not understand what I propose.
You have your battles, I have mines. I'll try to change what I think needs to change.
Again. You say that word a lot without ever explaining how I'm actually just that. I'm quite a straight forward guy. And I don't wanna brag but in term of values, coherency and cohesion, I'm quite strong. So....
I've explained that multiple time in the Nakama thread back in the days.
Carrot's journey is all about a few thematics:
- Wonder
- The discovering of the sea and it's danger
- Loss of innocence
- Inherited Will
Carrot is a young girl who was completely naive about the sea and her place in the world. Once she made the choice to join Luffy, she discovered a lot of wonder and a lot of danger. She loved every part of it even after the loss of her father figure.
The problem is that Carrot didn't understood the lesson fully and rushed toward danger in the thought to avenge Pedro. This is something that has been teased already in whole cake against Brulee or Katakuri. Carrot is like Luffy, she doesn't think, she rushes. But she is much more naive and was too confident in her own capacities. So, she underestimated her opponent and overestimate her power against Perospero.
She lost, logically. Nekomamushi is not all that, he understand the danger and his capacities.
Now.. Why was she the one to lose ?
Well simple : She needed to lose to understand REALLY that her power are not infinite and that the war is not a playgame but a real danger. This lose and humiliation was Oda telling Carrot that she needs to grow, make a choice in her life and stop seeing the sea just like a fairfest. The sea is both wonderous and dangerous.
Through this loss, Carrot lost the innocent part of her that prevented her to mature into a ruler and possibily a more important character later.
This loss makes perfect sence for her.
You have your battles, I have mines. I'll try to change what I think needs to change.
Again. You say that word a lot without ever explaining how I'm actually just that. I'm quite a straight forward guy. And I don't wanna brag but in term of values, coherency and cohesion, I'm quite strong. So....
I've explained that multiple time in the Nakama thread back in the days.
Carrot's journey is all about a few thematics:
- Wonder
- The discovering of the sea and it's danger
- Loss of innocence
- Inherited Will
Carrot is a young girl who was completely naive about the sea and her place in the world. Once she made the choice to join Luffy, she discovered a lot of wonder and a lot of danger. She loved every part of it even after the loss of her father figure.
The problem is that Carrot didn't understood the lesson fully and rushed toward danger in the thought to avenge Pedro. This is something that has been teased already in whole cake against Brulee or Katakuri. Carrot is like Luffy, she doesn't think, she rushes. But she is much more naive and was too confident in her own capacities. So, she underestimated her opponent and overestimate her power against Perospero.
She lost, logically. Nekomamushi is not all that, he understand the danger and his capacities.
Now.. Why was she the one to lose ?
Well simple : She needed to lose to understand REALLY that her power are not infinite and that the war is not a playgame but a real danger. This lose and humiliation was Oda telling Carrot that she needs to grow, make a choice in her life and stop seeing the sea just like a fairfest. The sea is both wonderous and dangerous.
Through this loss, Carrot lost the innocent part of her that prevented her to mature into a ruler and possibily a more important character later.
This loss makes perfect sence for her.
To say that she still didn't take it seriously and thought it was a game is kind of ignorant considering what happened in WCI.
She did understand the seriousness, but didn't understand the real lessons behind the war, being that is:
- Blinding
- Must not be made for revenge only.
Carrot needed to understand that power must be used with care and not simply because of the desire of revenge.
Yeah, that's cute, but you will not teach me anything about Carrot. You are the one using the word "seriously". I'm clear when I analyze. I said that she "didn't learn the lesson" and instead of acting with care, acted without understanding the danger she was putting herself and Wanda into.
Hence, she lost not without being humiliated and being brought back to vearth at the same time by Perospero.
You should know that in One Piece, character don't always have a linear growth pattern. It's sometimes actually much more human than that. During those times, characters fail, learn, then fail again in a similar aera, then really heal. A big example of that are Sanji and Usopp that needed to grow multiple times.
Carrot is similar. The death of Pedro made her recenter over the seriousness of the fight and her place. It pushed her to center herself in the hearth of the battle during the escape of Whole cake. But it wasn't enough. She needed to really understand that danger and her flaws in the matter.
Perospero teached her that. Now.. my guess is that this growth is not yet finished and she MIGHT have to learn one final thing, being her role in the bigger picture. (hence why I'm criticizing the anime that anticipated that)
- Blinding
- Must not be made for revenge only.
Carrot needed to understand that power must be used with care and not simply because of the desire of revenge.
Yeah, that's cute, but you will not teach me anything about Carrot. You are the one using the word "seriously". I'm clear when I analyze. I said that she "didn't learn the lesson" and instead of acting with care, acted without understanding the danger she was putting herself and Wanda into.
Hence, she lost not without being humiliated and being brought back to vearth at the same time by Perospero.
You should know that in One Piece, character don't always have a linear growth pattern. It's sometimes actually much more human than that. During those times, characters fail, learn, then fail again in a similar aera, then really heal. A big example of that are Sanji and Usopp that needed to grow multiple times.
Carrot is similar. The death of Pedro made her recenter over the seriousness of the fight and her place. It pushed her to center herself in the hearth of the battle during the escape of Whole cake. But it wasn't enough. She needed to really understand that danger and her flaws in the matter.
Perospero teached her that. Now.. my guess is that this growth is not yet finished and she MIGHT have to learn one final thing, being her role in the bigger picture. (hence why I'm criticizing the anime that anticipated that)
Dude. I've been studying storytelling for 18 years, studying the story of Oda for about the same time, analyzing the chararacter of Carrot IN DETAILS for 8... and you are coming at me after I detailed to you a throughout characterization analyzis without negativity and tell me that I'm ignorant ?
Come on mate....
Come on mate....
Dude. I've been studying storytelling for 18 years, studying the story of Oda for about the same time, analyzing the chararacter of Carrot IN DETAILS for 8... and you are coming at me after I detailed to you a throughout characterization analyzis without negativity and tell me that I'm ignorant ?
Come on mate....
Come on mate....
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Cool !! I'm waiting for your knowledge! If you can make me learn a thing or two, I'm ALL IN.
Now.. to come back on your last comment. Let me try to make you understand things from my perspective:
Here is how the discussions were in this forum between me and people like you during the Nakama war:
X People - "Say things about the story that are either not true or not pertinent."
Me - "You are wrong" > *proceed to write a 2 pages analyzis to make X people understand why they are wrong*
X People - "That's dumb" > *proceeds to write a sentence of BS, thinking that they killed the game and my argumentation*
Me - "You didn't understand* > *proceed to write a 10 pages analyzis with a more advanced argumentation / different take on the concepts I used to make X people understand my point*
X People - "That's soo dumb, you really think highly of yourself" > *proceeds to write a paragraph to explain why I'm wrong and why I'm dumb*
Me - "I'm not talking high, I'm simply telling you that you are wrong" > *proceed to write a post to explain the fallacy of the reasonning*
X People - "You really are stupid, you think you know stuff but you are illiterate"
Me - *Proceeds to explain my background to clarify my knowledge and try to show why people should take what I said seriously*
X People + More people - *Starts to attack my personnal life and say that I'm arrogant but illiterate*
Me - "You really are toxic" - *Proceed to take an arrogant tone to explain to them why X people are toxic*
X People + More people + Mods - *Proceed to explain why I'm the toxic one and why I know nothing about the story and why I'm an hypocrite or why I'm just sad*.
So of course.. after 20 or 30 times of that, I started to see a pattern and I started to become arrogant as a facade to protect myself everywhere since I have a tendancy not to agree with what posters are saying here. And Yes, I'm take the high ground and become disrespectfull and passive agressive because I got tired of trying to be nice and explain 50 times the same things in different words or be creative to make people understand simple things while being insulted in return.
And since I started to see that the problem was systemic, I adopted an offensive approach on the system itself. That's all there is to it :)
Be nice with me, and I will be nice with you. But don't expect me to be nice on the get go in a forum that is so negatively positive. I never EVEN ONCE attacked you directly in this thread. So please. Just look at yourself instead of attacking me blindly.
Now.. to come back on your last comment. Let me try to make you understand things from my perspective:
Here is how the discussions were in this forum between me and people like you during the Nakama war:
X People - "Say things about the story that are either not true or not pertinent."
Me - "You are wrong" > *proceed to write a 2 pages analyzis to make X people understand why they are wrong*
X People - "That's dumb" > *proceeds to write a sentence of BS, thinking that they killed the game and my argumentation*
Me - "You didn't understand* > *proceed to write a 10 pages analyzis with a more advanced argumentation / different take on the concepts I used to make X people understand my point*
X People - "That's soo dumb, you really think highly of yourself" > *proceeds to write a paragraph to explain why I'm wrong and why I'm dumb*
Me - "I'm not talking high, I'm simply telling you that you are wrong" > *proceed to write a post to explain the fallacy of the reasonning*
X People - "You really are stupid, you think you know stuff but you are illiterate"
Me - *Proceeds to explain my background to clarify my knowledge and try to show why people should take what I said seriously*
X People + More people - *Starts to attack my personnal life and say that I'm arrogant but illiterate*
Me - "You really are toxic" - *Proceed to take an arrogant tone to explain to them why X people are toxic*
X People + More people + Mods - *Proceed to explain why I'm the toxic one and why I know nothing about the story and why I'm an hypocrite or why I'm just sad*.
So of course.. after 20 or 30 times of that, I started to see a pattern and I started to become arrogant as a facade to protect myself everywhere since I have a tendancy not to agree with what posters are saying here. And Yes, I'm take the high ground and become disrespectfull and passive agressive because I got tired of trying to be nice and explain 50 times the same things in different words or be creative to make people understand simple things while being insulted in return.
And since I started to see that the problem was systemic, I adopted an offensive approach on the system itself. That's all there is to it :)
Be nice with me, and I will be nice with you. But don't expect me to be nice on the get go in a forum that is so negatively positive. I never EVEN ONCE attacked you directly in this thread. So please. Just look at yourself instead of attacking me blindly.
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I'm not stupid, Logiko. I may not be the smartest person, far from it actually, but I'm not gullible enough to believe you're just an innocent victim here. Me and you both know why people treat you the way they do.
I'll tell you one thing, it's not because it's hip to hate on you and call you egotistical.
Maybe, just maybe, we don't like you because you act as though you're Oda himself and freak out when people disagree with you or say that the story is bad/poorly written at times.
Oh, and also, if you really had such a problem with people bullying you, then just put them on ignore and/or leave the forum. It's really that simple. If you honestly believe that they're in the wrong and that the mods aren't doing a sufficient job, then just cut your losses and leave.
I'll tell you one thing, it's not because it's hip to hate on you and call you egotistical.
Maybe, just maybe, we don't like you because you act as though you're Oda himself and freak out when people disagree with you or say that the story is bad/poorly written at times.
Oh, and also, if you really had such a problem with people bullying you, then just put them on ignore and/or leave the forum. It's really that simple. If you honestly believe that they're in the wrong and that the mods aren't doing a sufficient job, then just cut your losses and leave.
I'm not. I came here to wage war. The replies I got were perfectly logical and predictible. I came with the intent of stopping the toxicity of Yamato fans on my twitter subcribers of that time.
Now.. What I did first is to defend Carrot and Carrot fans. It's only by being very obstinated in this endevor and because I managed to occupy the entire space of the discussion that people started show their true colors. And thus I replied as demonstrated before.
Don't think about me like a victim. I'm not. I'm more of a spotlight. I target EXACTLY the right things that triggers people. This is kind of a super power of mine. And I do not hide who I am. I have a big ego, yes. I love being the center of attention also yes. And I strive on conflicts, also ALSO yes. But the thing is:
I use those flaws of mine as tools to make some progress and change, not to spread negativity.
While this thread was created in the intent to have fun, it was also in the intent to make a point. I'll explain that in detail in the sensitive section tomorrow. I need to sleep a few hours.
Now.. What I did first is to defend Carrot and Carrot fans. It's only by being very obstinated in this endevor and because I managed to occupy the entire space of the discussion that people started show their true colors. And thus I replied as demonstrated before.
Don't think about me like a victim. I'm not. I'm more of a spotlight. I target EXACTLY the right things that triggers people. This is kind of a super power of mine. And I do not hide who I am. I have a big ego, yes. I love being the center of attention also yes. And I strive on conflicts, also ALSO yes. But the thing is:
I use those flaws of mine as tools to make some progress and change, not to spread negativity.
While this thread was created in the intent to have fun, it was also in the intent to make a point. I'll explain that in detail in the sensitive section tomorrow. I need to sleep a few hours.