Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

Yeah... you are not wrong. Concepts are social constructs and they are caused by material conditions.

But what you don't know is that causes or origins are irrelevant when we talk about concepts. Because what determine concepts are their inferential roles, i.e, their fuction in a reasoning.
If you create a new concept what will determine it won't be it cause, but his meaning in relation to another concepts. Its an holistic process.

Thats why empiricism is wrong when we talk about the nature of concepts

I'm sorry I didn't understand your point (I was awoken with less than 3 hours of sleeps so I'm a bit lost). I think you are telling me that causes are not relevant with concepts, but I don't really understand the link witht the discussion.

So I will reply to that: In reality, causes do matter with concepts our at least the contextualisation of those concepts is important. When we talk about racism for example, it's just a word and it has many meaning in usual. But it is important to have a sociological approach when we talk about the creation of the word to understand that it is actually very recent.

> Which means, in that example, that racism as a system is actually quite new. Before that, while there were discrimination based on various principles (country, war lost, religion etc.) there was no such thing as a hierarachy of hoomans based on the color of the skin or ethnicities. Which can also help us to understand how to fight racism.

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As for the link with the discussion, I'm sorry, but I think I'm too fuzzy too understand what you meant.

I will clarify this sentence of mine because it can be missinterpretated:

"Yes. Social construct are also part of what we call the "material conditions of our existence". Materiality in the literal sence is not necessarily the determined factor. "

By "material condition of our existence" I meant the material condition that have a power to influence us our descision making and overall life. They can be :

- Concretes: This is the case for our biology, for the environment with leave in, the people we met
- Semi abstract: This would be the case for the capital we own, that can exist in concrete and abstract form.
- Abstract: This is the case of a structure like an ideology for ex
- Systemic: This would be the case for capitalism or patriarchy.

(I'm sure someone define that much better than me, but I don't have the volition to do research this morning so it will have to do.)

In other words, the concept of materiality in "material conditions of our existence" here is a way to solidify the notion that we are influence by many things, abstract, systemic or concrete, but all of those have a real material and physical impact on us and will change us as we are structured and transformed by those conditions..

>> Which means that by changing all those things, we also change behaviors.

Let's take a simple ex: This forum

> In this thread: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/a-last-stand-a-new-system-to-promote-positivity.59457/

I propose the structural changes for more positivity to be developped on this forum. This idea is simple : I don't want to force anyone to adopt a more positive behavior BUT I wanted people to adopt this behavior by themselves in response to the changes in the system.

So while I demanded for the moderation to be a little bit more present and informed on important questions such as transphobia, in reality you will see that a lot of the propositions here were made to please us as users and to canalize the negativity toward a specific point.

For example, I proposed the creation of new tags like the "moderation choice". This would be a thread, pinned on top of others and chosen by the moderation.

As you can see here, the idea is not to force, but to create a path for the behavior to evolve toward a specific type of change (more positivity) rather than another (toxicity). The structure of the forum is the reason why people are so toxic (for the reasons evocked in the thread, and it's not a particularity only of this forum) so by making structural change, you could make people adopt naturally more positive behaviors.

>> This is an example of many that behavior can be changed through systems changes.

When we adapt this thinking to fight oppressive systems (such as patriarchy or capitalism) we understand that in reality, greed, hyper individualism, sexism or Egoism, are just the product of a conditionning related to those systems not necessarily individual behavior problems or a bad state of the human nature.

So to fight those system, we must fight to structurally change them.

Is this offtopic discussion still going on?

It's completely on topic. I would even say, it's the hearth of the political discussion.

 

[dirtyLarry]

Actually I will try to learn spanish once I will get better. I tried to learn it a year ago, but I wasn't capable of concentrating on the task.



I might. Maybe. I'm not perfect and I know I have shortcomings. But your ideology is something I understand already, simply because I surfed with it a long time ago. I know how easy it is to be fooled by a system of beliefs that is far from reality.

I'm not denying the state of your experience. You are indeed experiencing a country in corruptions, in poverty, in violences. But I know things that you don't about this. Especially about the impact of post colonialism on the structures of your society.

This is something that can only be understood once you start to think in a materialistic ways, once you start to understand the powers of structures.

Again. You mention the rot of communism and socialism, you even mentionned the number of death because of communism.. but when I start to compare them to the number of death due to capitalism.. you suddenly stop replying and your ignore the discussion.

You need to face that contradiction. I already faced mine. I'm trying to reach you one last time here.

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You need to understand one thing : Materialism is not about ideology. Materialism is a way of seeing the world. It's opposite to the idealistic thinking. This means that we do not think that ideas can change the world, we have a much more realistic approach.

Materialism simply see the world as a result of material phenomenon. Said materiality can also be applied to over arching structures in society like communism or capitalism. Meaning that:

If you want to change the world, you need to change the structures where humans evolves.

If you understand that. You will start to understand a lot of things. I'm really not kidding.

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I know you think that this is BS, that I'm simply a brainwashed leftist. So to try to reach you one last time I will ask our friend ChatGPT to explain you the importance of structure.

No intervention from me, it will be simple logic so there should be no problem with false information. So.. If you are trying to look at it in a rationnal way, you should be able to accept that:

As you can see here, a few simple structural change for a specific aera can create and modify the behaviors of hoomans.

Here, the example is very practical (the transportations infrastructures).. but in our case, we are talking about system that are not as tangible and YET.. they are real and documented system:

- Capitalism
- Patriarchy
- Systemic ableism
- Meritocracy
- Systemic racism
- Post colonialism
Etc.

Those are not some invention from crazy researchers, but real documented systems that are pushing us to adopt certain forms of behavior.

Under meritocracy, for example, Billionnaires are seen as a sign of success by the masses, people are pushed to win more and compete more as if competition was the heart of a well functionning society. But it is just a conditionning.

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You need to really accept AT LEAST that fact or you will continue to blame your socialist corrupt society, and you will never see a real and viable solution and you will never allow yourself to think of a better future with reason and serenity.

Structures are shaping us and our behavior. It is only by shaping the structures that we will be able to create real change. And it include giving your country a better chance to strive.

I read silently for quite a while, but I had to laugh out loud while reading this.

So much nonsense hidden in fancy sounding phrases, that you yourself seem to get off to.

I will make it short:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You're a not particularly smart individual with some serious mental problems, that especially thinks of himself as way smarter than you are in reality. Both in your trolling attempts and in your attempts at serious posts.

You are in fact a perfect example of intellectual mediocrity. Some superficial book knowledge without any kind of depth or deeper understanding of it, which simply doesn't translate to the real world.

If I had to make an educated guess based on the way you argue (you're not even understanding how superficial you are to begin with), you're probably even a bit below average when it comes to logical and critical thinking.

 

[Luffy is the mc]

I read silently for quite a while, but I had to laugh out loud while reading this.

So much nonsense hidden in fancy sounding phrases, that you yourself seem to get off to.

I will make it short:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You're a not particularly smart individual with some serious mental problems, that especially thinks of himself as way smarter than you are in reality. Both in your trolling attempts and in your attempts at actual serious posts.

You are in fact a perfect example of intellectual mediocrity. Some superficial book knowledge without any kind of depth or deeper understanding of it, which simply doesn't translate to the real world.

If I had to make an advanced guess based on the way you argue (not even understanding how superficial you are to begin with), you're probably even a bit below average when it comes to logical and critical thinking.

He's what some people call a "useful idiot" for corporate interests. He thinks the rich and powerful dislike or fear his ideas when in fact they very much love him for having these ideas and trying hard to push them on others.

 

[RyoQ]

Color's perception aren't a material thing. Color is the subjective effect caused by wavelenghts of light. What is material is the wavelenghts, not the subjective effect we call color

Confusing the two leads to metaphysical problems

I was referring to strictly that the perception of it via the senses

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

@Germinator so are you a creationist or what?

Yes

 

[Afroking]

You know it is bad ,when a major newspaper(and not a tabloid like sun ) starts pointing fingers at the biggest cash grab project of both the left and the right

It is beyond pathetic and shows the demise of the society considering how this atrocity was covered up. And for what? To protect animals of the so called "minority" .

 

[NAMELESS]

What's wrong with saying the truth? Political opinions are not balanced between sexes.

The main reason is they are cheaper workers for the 1%.

For the average joe? Maybe. For the criminal type? No.

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

Ok.
But you are defending a system that is oppressing you and is doing exactly that but to exploit you instead of helping you. You are not a billionnaire, you are struggling just like us.

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Changing the structures of society CAN be control if it is done without democracy and without transparency. But we are talking about fighting oppressions through restructuration here, not controlling what you think. Even you should be able to understand the difference.

Ok, you do not want a centralized government. You know what ? Me neither. If I had the choice, I would prefer to be auto organized societies. (Hence why I'm leaning more toward anarchism than communism)

But under capitalism, we don't have a choice. When the seek for profit can literally transform people into the worst version of themselves, how are you sure that those who don't have the ressources to keep up with the system can participate in society ? How do you make sure your water is safe ?

Well.. Regulations and taxes.

Under capitalism, it's not possible to do it differently. At least if you consider that we should not abandon those people or that we should not be allowed to sell poison to people (those are just examples).

I understand the fear of the state, but in this case, it's irrationnal at best. When individual people own a capital that a normal human working with more or less 6 $ per hours would make in 13+ MILLION years, we NEED a state to regulate such things.

Or.. you consider that it is normal ?



This is literally what is happening with what people call techno feodalism... you are defending that.



You are literally defending technocracy here. The very thing that you do not want to happen.



We live in capitalism. There is no such system as higher capitalism, after that it is libertariannism, which is even deadlier even more oppressive. Take a pause for a moment and accept that at least. We live in an era where the search for profit and the exploitation of worker is part of the system.

This. is. capitalism.

Now....


While it is complex to be precise, an estimation and most of all, a comparison between the number of death between capitalism and communism/socialism can CLEARLY be made.

This article shows very well that while socialism and communism actually were problematic period, what is happening under capitalism is even worse. We should not compare the death, but you give me no choice.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10455752.2021.1875603

We are talking about 100 MILLIONS of death for wars alone in the last centuries because of said capitalism impact.

Noam Chomsky, using finding about India even said concluded that "in India the democratic capitalist “experiment” since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the “colossal, wholly failed … experiment” of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since [...]"

To that, you can had free market policies, politics, exploitation and poverty... the number will be just IMMENSE.

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I understand your focus on leftism and communism. Latine america is heavily corrupted and arbore a socialist face, so you make the shortcut that socialism is the problem.

But you need to face reality:

Capitalism is the problem.

Capitalism is the reason why your country is corrupted in the first place, not socialism, not leftism, not progressism, not women or trans people: CAPITALISM and the seeking for profit.

I'm actually begging you to take a step back and watch at reality with a rationnal eye and serenity. Listen to scientist, read about social science. Try to understand what being materialist means.

This is me not wanting to let go and trying one last time.. Please, listen.

Take a look at this:

You are completely ignorant about cryptocurrency. It's a decentralized tech. Nobody can break it's cryptography either, this is why bitcoin is safe and govs hate it: THEY CAN'T CONTROL IT. It's the same for the internet for the most part.
I'm not going to argue with you about capitalism x communism. You already proved yourself immune to logic and facts. I thought you matured a bit, it seems i was mistaken.

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

Capitalism encourages greed, ego, and hyper individualism. Communism pretends greed, ego, and hyper individualism doesn't exist. Under capitalism, it's a slow death as regulations are gradually removed to support those with lots of captital. Under communism, it's a quick death as high corruption runs rampant.

Capitalism can work, and has worked, if properly regulated. Communism doesn't work and has failed miserably over and over. Capitalism in Amerca ≠ Capitalism in Europe ≠Capitalism in Brazil. (I'm bored and just wanted to say shit).

It also encourages perfection of individuals skills. It's because of this competition that our tech is advancing so much lately. Communism does the opposite, it takes away the sense of reward, so people feel no incentive to give their best.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

For the average joe? Maybe. For the criminal type? No.

I am not sure what you mean.

 

[NAMELESS]

I am not sure what you mean.

I was talking about police and tribunals not going after those rapist gangs. They have no legal reasons for this. This is pure political. It's negligent at best and CRIMINAL at worst. I hear this is happening cause the left completely took over England's justice system. This is treason.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

I was talking about police and tribunals not going after those rapist gangs. They have no legal reasons for this. This is pure political. It's negligent at best and CRIMINAL at worst. I hear this is happening cause the left completely took over England's justice system. This is treason.

In a lot of cases the average Joe, as you say, doesn't really care about someone from another community being harmed by someone else from his own community. In many cases they are still in favour of the guy from their own community. Punishing these guys and deporting them may really cause mass revolts.

 

[NAMELESS]

He's what some people call a "useful idiot" for corporate interests. He thinks the rich and powerful dislike or fear his ideas when in fact they very much love him for having these ideas and trying hard to push them on others.

They finance those that spread such ideas afterall.

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

In a lot of cases the average Joe, as you say, doesn't really care about someone from another community being harmed by someone else from his own community. In many cases they are still in favour of the guy from their own community. Punishing these guys and deporting them may really cause mass revolts.

Everyone is equal under the Law. Crime needs to be punished. Period. Riots can be dealt with by the police. There is no justification what is going on in the UK. It's criminal.

 

[Zenos7]

Yes

So you dont accept that evolution is a thing and that we are primates?

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

Communism does the opposite, it takes away the sense of reward, so people feel no incentive to give their best.

On average this might be true.

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

Just going to share an evolutionary biologist thats also a christian (maybe that helps?!) adressing creationist arguments. He has two more videos like this, going over even more arguments.

Generally a nice channel.

@Germinator

 

[Roo]

Man what kind of retard you have to be to still be a creationist in the year of our lord 2025

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

He's what some people call a "useful idiot" for corporate interests. He thinks the rich and powerful dislike or fear his ideas when in fact they very much love him for having these ideas and trying hard to push them on others.

You're talking about Trump / afd fans here, right?
Logiko is one indeed just on the other end of the spectrum

 

[dirtyLarry]

You're talking about Trump / afd fans here, right?
Logiko is one indeed just on the other end of the spectrum

That's exactly why he is a "useful idiot" - just like the common supporters of the extreme right on the other end of the spectrum.

Divide et impera

He's so dedicated to the ideas of his radical leftist bubble (and therefore also the "enemies" of their ideals), that he perfectly plays into the hands of the real establishment without realizing this himself.

Guys like him are getting played like a fiddle.

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

Everyone is equal under the Law. Crime needs to be punished. Period. Riots can be dealt with by the police. There is no justification what is going on in the UK. It's criminal.

These things are inconsequential for the 1%, what matters is having cheap labor and making greater profits.

Man what kind of retard you have to be to still be a creationist in the year of our lord 2025

Creation was never in doubt in Christianity, it's just that now most people don't believe it to be irreconciliable with Darwin's theory.

 

[NAMELESS]

These things are inconsequential for the 1%, what matters is having cheap labor and making greater profits.

Creation was never in doubt in Christianity, it's just that now most people don't believe it to be irreconciliable with Darwin's theory.

Do you have any proof of this or are you just speaking based on your assumptions?

 

[Zenos7]

Man what kind of retard you have to be to still be a creationist in the year of our lord 2025

Eh, depends on the specifics. Creation and evolution arent necessarily mutually exclusive.

But sure, denying evolution is like believing in flat earth. . .

Post automatically merged: Jan 4, 2025

it's just that now most people don't believe it to be irreconciliable with Darwin's theory.

As long as one doesnt literally believe the adam and eve srory it is compatible

 

[Roo]

These things are inconsequential for the 1%, what matters is having cheap labor and making greater profits.

Creation was never in doubt in Christianity, it's just that now most people don't believe it to be irreconciliable with Darwin's theory.

Eh, depends on the specifics. Creation and evolution arent necessarily mutually exclusive.

But sure, denying evolution is like believing in flat earth. . .

A creationist is not someone who just believes god created things, a creationist is a person who believes in the genesis story literally

 

[Etzel Andergast]

If you believe that an intelligent designer created every single thing or creature in the universe without any evolution process then you are a creationist.
If you just believe god started the existence of the universe and not interfered in the flow of the physical process that got us where we are now then you aren't a creationist

 

[Zenos7]

A creationist is not someone who just believes god created things, a creationist is a person who believes in the genesis story literally

I know people where this isnt the case.

Like bob from speakers corner