This arc was premium bullshit
Everyone complained about Kanki doing a basic and logical maneuver to ambush Riboku, who was blinded by his emotions fearing for the common folk, but Riboku suddenly spawning a 300k army forming a cage around Kanki, who doesn’t even have a couple hundred meters advance party? Sounds good
Funny thing is, real life Riboku was an actual chad, he was low on numbers because Zhao were still recovering from Hakuki’s massacre in Chouhei. Manga version somehow always has the numerical advantage
The esteemed general who the narrator exposes right upon the start of the war, who Houken then blatantly calls a fraud. In a war where Riboku pre-war stated he was going to showcase how to win with overwhelming might?
Houken was the Commander in Chief, didn't summon anything.
In manga version the states are more powerful in general for the sake of making the conquest more impressive. It's not just Zhao, but also Chu, Wei etc. In history Qin was by far the strongest, but in the manga Hara made Chu the state with the most territory and population. It's the same with Zhao being a state that recovered from Chouhei.
That is why hating on Riboku for "spawning armies" is very stupid. Does Gohoumei spawn armies, because he always fights Qin with number advantage? What about Karin? In the current arc Qin are on number disadvantage against the weakest state Han even after developing special strategy to limit their numbers. So can Han spawn armies then?
Funny thing is, real life Riboku was an actual chad, he was low on numbers because Zhao were still recovering from Hakuki’s massacre in Chouhei. Manga version somehow always has the numerical advantage
Zhao was in a damn near numbers crisis ever since Chouhei. They never recovered from that, not in a mere couple generations at least. Real life Riboku was a defence demon. I think at some point the guy was stopping Qin invasions with much smaller numbers after his state was struck by natural disasters.
The esteemed general who the narrator exposes right upon the start of the war, who Houken then blatantly calls a fraud. In a war where Riboku pre-war stated he was going to showcase how to win with overwhelming might?
Houken was the Commander in Chief, didn't summon anything.
The narrator said Gekishin stole Gakuki’s warfare, his talent is observation, a special stat Hara added in his databooks. 60 years of experience, Gakuki’s warfare, an exceptional leader revered as the savior of Yan, a name with enough weight that it is mentioned next to Ouki when they talk of Riboku’s rise to fame, he chose Gekishin for a reason
Houken called him a fraud because he is one martially
In manga version the states are more powerful in general for the sake of making the conquest more impressive. It's not just Zhao, but also Chu, Wei etc. In history Qin was by far the strongest, but in the manga Hara made Chu the state with the most territory and population. It's the same with Zhao being a state that recovered from Chouhei.
That is why hating on Riboku for "spawning armies" is very stupid. Does Gohoumei spawn armies, because he always fights Qin with number advantage? What about Karin? In the current arc Qin are on number disadvantage against the weakest state Han even after developing special strategy to limit their numbers. So can Han spawn armies then?
Li Mu was a master of counterspionge and information control, that's how he defeated most of his opponents with fewer troops.
Li Mu's Kingdom is a definition of a loser, hiding a huge amount of troops and spamming houkens without even explaining how, making it look like Qin was fucking stupid, and still loses. Most of the RBK tactics are a bunch of uno reversal cards.
No one is asking for an Edgelord, another Uchiha, or whatever you guys think. Everyone just wants the historical Li Mu, the one who held off Qin for years even with fewer troops, the one Wang Jian was only able to defeat because of Zhao's shitty politics.
This "Edgelord" argument is very funny when RBK himself is a bum compared to the historical Li Mu.
I guess Hara is not skilled enough to make a good "villain" like Li Mu.
And nothing to do with the thread, but Shin is one of the most shitty characters, next to the Necromancer Kyoukai.
Li Mu as a protagonist would be much better than this stupid MC.
The narrator said Gekishin stole Gakuki’s warfare, his talent is observation, a special stat Hara added in his databooks. 60 years of experience, Gakuki’s warfare, an exceptional leader revered as the savior of Yan, a name with enough weight that it is mentioned next to Ouki when they talk of Riboku’s rise to fame, he chose Gekishin for a reason
Houken called him a fraud because he is one martially
Yes Houken the great mastermind behind Gekishin’s death
Riboku sent Keisha to summon Houken for that war specifically
Yes his reputation as the hero of yan carried enough weight that it is mentioned next to Ouki's. Why? Because he's credited for saving Yan. China outside of Yan, right now, thinks that he and Gakuki saved Yan, labeling him as the "Savior of Yan". This is his reputation told to us through Karyo Ten.
The following chapter, the narrator tells us there was only GG mfs acknowledged in Eastern China, and his name was Gakuki. And it was he alone who saved Yan from the brink of destruction:
When Gakuki was tearing up the East, this mf was following him around and taking notes.
To Gekishin's credit, he had the talent to replicate Gakuki's warfare to a point where it simply held many similarities.
He has no weight as a general as well, since he's basically a merchant selling himself for money, with him telling Saitaku to let Ryofui know if he wants to hire him. Overall, he's a slightly better GG than somebody like Mougou, with a fake reputation rivaling the likes of Qin 6, thanks to Gakuki.
Houken along with Riboku literally led the Zhao army to the battle with Gekishin lol.
Only after which, even Saitaku warns him about the duo:
Gekishin believing in his own fake hype had the confidence that he had gotten the best of Riboku with his strategy, and when he encounters Houken, he literally had a chance to retreat, but chose not to, because he thought he could lay an ass whooping on Houken.
This was a 2vs1 from the get go, that everyone knew about from Gekishin to Saitaku. He overestimated himself and got his ass handed to him in less than 12 hours.
Gekishin with his fake hype thought he could handle a 2vs1 with Riboku and Houken, he instead got his ass clapped within hours.
And no Houken wasn't simply talking about martial might. Houken was referring to Gekishin being a fake great general like the caliber of Ouki and such. As Ouki told Houken, great generals can draw insane power from the burden they carry from the lives of thousands on thousands upon their shoulders. Gekishin in that sense was a fraud, as established not just from his fake rep, but also in his convo with Saitaku.
This is a stark contrast to even somebody like Choutou, who martially isn't that high, but is able to draw upon insane amount of weight due to being a legit great general. Choutou hours into being poisoned was showcasing martial feats that was leaving Kanki bandits to call him a monster. All because of his strength that he was withdrawing from being a general :
So no it's not simply him as a martial person, but he as a great general is a fraud, because he cannot push himself to the extents the likes of Riboku and etc push themselves for victory for their states, to carry out risky strategies to the point Choutou willingly went out and died to carry out the strategy. Folks like Gekishin are their own life first and money first. Not to say he's not a decently talented individual, but he's tiers below Zhao 3/Qin 6 lol.
Li Mu was a master of counterspionge and information control, that's how he defeated most of his opponents with fewer troops.
Li Mu's Kingdom is a definition of a loser, hiding a huge amount of troops and spamming houkens without even explaining how, making it look like Qin was fucking stupid, and still loses. Most of the RBK tactics are a bunch of uno reversal cards.
No one is asking for an Edgelord, another Uchiha, or whatever you guys think. Everyone just wants the historical Li Mu, the one who held off Qin for years even with fewer troops, the one Wang Jian was only able to defeat because of Zhao's shitty politics.
This "Edgelord" argument is very funny when RBK himself is a bum compared to the historical Li Mu.
I guess Hara is not skilled enough to make a good "villain" like Li Mu.
And nothing to do with the thread, but Shin is one of the most shitty characters, next to the Necromancer Kyoukai.
Li Mu as a protagonist would be much better than this stupid MC.
So riboku looking stupid is an issue...
the Qin looking stupid is an issue....
The historical Li Mu that you're trying to deep throat myfriend, only has few statements historically about him... and those statements come from a piece of writing written a Century after him. There are absolutely no details on what kind of politics were being played in the Zhao court. There's absolutely no details on Riboku's actual role in those politics and who was on his side and who wasn't. And Shibashou historically, also comes out of nowhere for the Zhao...
It's funny to me, y'all are bitching and moaning about Riboku this much when Hara goes out of his way to justify him winning due to having higher numbers and other factors, but y'all would rather Riboku give the Qin a spanking with lower numbers... got it. We might be Riboku fans... But y'all damn near cowgirling on this this mf all over Texas with how y'all want Hara to write him. lmao.
I would say that Gekishin's hype was 100% real. He was arguably portrayed as a Top Tier strategist and also as a good fighter to boot. Anyone who spoke of him treated him with nothing but respect.
His role in the story was to show what a Top Tier General without Weight looked like in a fight, both to the benefit of the reader and to Houken. Presumably the reason why Gekishin didn't have Weight despite his status as a Legendary Great General was due to his detached, mercenary style attitude of selling his services to the highest bidder and his complete disregard to his own subordinates. Gekishin could also serve as an example of what Shin could have ended up becoming had he kept his own initial mercenary style attitude he had towards Ei Sei and never acquired a higher ideal to fight for. The bloke's name is literally Geki Shin.
For the bit about Houken calling him a fraud, that has to do with Gekishin's lack of Weight and Hara wanting to give Houken some character growth.
From what I recall, Riboku lured Houken onto the battlefield with the promise of another powerful General in Gekishin. Gekishin's military record on paper would put him on par with the Qin 6 and Great Heavens. With Houken not comprehending Ouki's words fully, he goes to the battlefield once more expecting another great duel to test his martial might and perhaps come closer to understanding what it is about being a Great General that made the likes of Ouki strong enough to best him in a duel.
He finds Gekishin and finds him completely lacking what Ouki had (i.e. Weight). Despite all his accomplishments on the battlefield as a Great General, Gekishin immediately crumples under Houken's might. Without Weight, without that thing which intrigues and frustrates the Bushin so, Gekishin is indeed a fraud in Houken's eyes and while he perhaps isn't closer to understanding what the Weight of a General is, Houken does now know what it isn't. It isn't something that is acquired just by being a General or even by being a General with a long and successful battlefield career. There is something more to it that Houken has yet to find out, that something being emotional attachment which Houken rejects.
As for the rest of that post, Geki got Kochou'd. Lmao.
Shiji gives very little details on Li Mu's strategies. We know he was hevily relying on fortifications. Against Xiongnu he baited them into an ambush, but if I recall he did have a number advantage in this battle (which is ironic, because in the manga he was the side with less troops there).
Li Mu's Kingdom is a definition of a loser, hiding a huge amount of troops and spamming houkens without even explaining how, making it look like Qin was fucking stupid, and still loses. Most of the RBK tactics are a bunch of uno reversal cards.
Manga Riboku is the most versitile strategist in the series. We saw him using starvation tactics, psychological warfare, attrition warfare, fortifications, terrain usage, cuting comunication between enemy forces, even something more obscure like creating instinctual-type army. Sure, he does have a tendency to use information blocades a lot, but given how effective they are it's more strange other states are not using them.
The morale boost given by Ouki to a proper Qin Army. And the morale boost given by Renpa to an actual Zhao army. These shall always be the two things I'm sad that we won't see.
Shiji gives very little details on Li Mu's strategies. We know he was hevily relying on fortifications. Against Xiongnu he baited them into an ambush, but if I recall he did have a number advantage in this battle (which is ironic, because in the manga he was the side with less troops there).
Not my problem if you can't read anything that isn't the Shiji.
The battle of Xiongnu and his fortification strategy that you mentioned, it was only possible because he had several scouts and spies on the border and in the watchtowers to retreat and fortify the camp in time, he even didn't bring the food and other resources with him because the Xiongnu didn't have the tools to use or destroy them, This was only possible because Li Mu had a whole system of intelligence to manage the circulation of information faster so that he could maintain his fortification strategies, it was no shit that when the dumb fucker king of Zhao withdrew Li Mu from the battle for being "too cowardly", he received many Ls and had to go straight way to put him back there.
From Tian Zhaolin book's; History of Chinese Warfare Volume 1: Ancient Times to Qin and Han
And I'm talking about the bigger picture, Li Mu was severely handicapped in almost all of the battles because he had stupid kings who didn't support him, stupid generals who were crap compared to the Qin, and if I'm not sure, Zhao's troops were pure crap too.
And yet he managed to defeat Qin several times, who was a great power, much better than Hara's Qin.
Hara's Li Mu has everything, good generals, good troops, way more armies than the historical one, meanwhile he still lacks military depth and advanced military tactics, with the only really good formation he used was the Ryuudou Formation, which was a cheap version of Yuan Fang's btw, and STILL Hara managed to screw him over because of mere "instincts", oh lord how I hate this bullshit shounen terms in warfare.
Manga Riboku is the most versitile strategist in the series. We saw him using starvation tactics, psychological warfare, attrition warfare, fortifications, terrain usage, cuting comunication between enemy forces, even something more obscure like creating instinctual-type army. Sure, he does have a tendency to use information blocades a lot, but given how effective they are it's more strange other states are not using them.
"Manga Riboku is the most versitile strategist in the series."
How many times did this man asspull Houken to gain advantage for him, and for how many times did he spam troops out of nowhere? And how the fuck did RBK manage to mobilize 310k fucking troops without being noticed, and where did he get those 310k from, since Zhao wasn't in a good situation? lmfao
It's all these stupid asspulls that make him win the important battles, it's never deep tactics, it's always the same asspulls, troops from nowhere, numerical advantage, and all the generals still fall for it like it's something new when it's not lmfao.
You said a bunch of tactics, but when were those tactics very important or more important than the asspulls he did with Houken and the troops from nowhere?
And I'm sorry, but Riboku never took those tactics to their deeper level, like other generals from history did, It's always the most basic aspect of them, just for him to spam his number advantages, houkens and hidden troops, It's always the same old bullshit.
There is no other as legit of a source from close to that era with elaborative details of those figures as the Shiji, which isn't really all that elaborative.
Historical books and texts after the Shiji's time derive information from the Shiji and provide hypothesized information from other sources, regional lore or such.
Going to save Cichy the trouble for this point. 0 times.
- Houken was CiC in Bayou.
- Houken led the army to the war against Gekishin, was openly declared the CiC. It was an openly declared 2vs1, that Gekishin arrogantly stepped into.
- We were already told or atleast hinted to Riboku bringing Houken to Coalition, right after the Gekishin war. So nothing really asspull about it, his bringing was kept hidden from the Qin army, but the readers already knew he was with Riboku, just not being used.
- Houken appeared out of nowhere in a fairly meaningless fight, without Riboku calling upon him, because Hara wanted to get rid of him fast. With Mouten and Ousen both expecting Riboku to have escaped the HSU, regardless of Houken's interference.
So is your issue with Riboku that Hara should give him weaker underlings and lower forces while he's spanking the Qin?
?
My problem is with the troops from nowhere, the asspulls, the incompetence, the houkens, the whole oversimplification of military tactics as if we were in a video game, with the instinctual type bullshit.
?
My problem is with the troops from nowhere, the asspulls, the incompetence, the houkens, the whole oversimplification of military tactics as if we were in a video game, with the instinctual type bullshit.
Seems like this type of fantasy romanticized historical manga isn't for you my brotha. And you're correct on the video game part, but that should've been clear when a 4ft chinese kid is jumping 10ft into the air in the 2nd/3rd chapter of the series, or we get introduced to chinese men who're damn near 10 ft tall and make the world's strongest men irl look like babies. Or when the likes of Yotanwa are able to sense people inside the palace, or when Ouki is jumping off of a 20ft wall casually or... the existence of Rankai.
Could you pinpoint the time where Houken was asspulled? Or atleast clarify what you mean by an asspull.
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