General & Others What can Sanji do/learn to reach the levels that the fandom expects him to reach post 1139?

[Terra Arseid7]

Current luffy vs current sanji.

Obviously sanji loses to g5 luffy. Clearly it's not low diff. Sanji is easily pushing kuzaru to high diff.

This is how oda and I view the power ranking on the crew. It's canonical.

I think zoro and sanji together, handily beat luffy. 4380 is comfortably over 4000

This is supposed to parralel the strawhats strengths as they are the strawhats opponents. This pattern is consistent in every arc. This is also consistent in most crews.

I have always seen the dourikis as stupid, besides the fact that those are not the mugis, but I will answer and argue in a fairly clear and overwhelming way.

First point, and we don't know if it is true or not. But we do know that users of zoan fruits, in base form, already have benefits such as greater recovery, so it is more likely to think that their physical abilities in base form are also enhanced. Nika Nika, for example, also has the properties of rubber in its base form.
We don't know how much it could increase, but Kaku could have easily gone from 2500-3000

Second point. Lucci had a natural advantage against Luffy. All of Lucci's strikes in base form are non-slashing strikes, punches, kicks and shigan. All of this was absolutely reduced by the properties of the rubber. But even in hybrid form, various throws and punches with a closed fist and kicks were still less effective. Which, Luffy could have less than 4000 dourikis but win by this advantage.

In fact, if we see the fight when both are in base form. Lucci is clearly superior. Which means that Lucci in base form (4000) was much superior to Luffy (>4000)

Third point. Kaku fought using swords. Something that enhances its defensive capacity, blocking, lethality, destructive capacity and range, especially being a giraffe. All this cannot and was not reflected in the dourikis.


And fourth point. Zoro defeated Kaku much more easily than Luffy defeated Lucci. Also, Luffy needed to be using his new PU throughout the fight. Zoro fought the entire fight without his PU, and as soon as he used it, he ended the fight

 

[BillSlipton]

I have always seen the dourikis as stupid, besides the fact that those are not the mugis, but I will answer and argue in a fairly clear and overwhelming way.

First point, and we don't know if it is true or not. But we do know that users of zoan fruits, in base form, already have benefits such as greater recovery, so it is more likely to think that their physical abilities in base form are also enhanced. Nika Nika, for example, also has the properties of rubber in its base form.
We don't know how much it could increase, but Kaku could have easily gone from 2500-3000

Second point. Lucci had a natural advantage against Luffy. All of Lucci's strikes in base form are non-slashing strikes, punches, kicks and shigan. All of this was absolutely reduced by the properties of the rubber. But even in hybrid form, various throws and punches with a closed fist and kicks were still less effective. Which, Luffy could have less than 4000 dourikis but win by this advantage.

In fact, if we see the fight when both are in base form. Lucci is clearly superior. Which means that Lucci in base form (4000) was much superior to Luffy (>4000)

Third point. Kaku fought using swords. Something that enhances its defensive capacity, blocking, lethality, destructive capacity and range, especially being a giraffe. All this cannot and was not reflected in the dourikis.


And fourth point. Zoro defeated Kaku much more easily than Luffy defeated Lucci. Also, Luffy needed to be using his new PU throughout the fight. Zoro fought the entire fight without his PU, and as soon as he used it, he ended the fight

Youve started this debate on bad footing already. Youve used an axiom that isnt actually self evident. Its more of a presupposition when you say that zoan fruits increase your base strength. The burden of proof is on you after making this claim. You need to prove zoan fruits increase your base. Using luffys unique zoan with paramecian properties is a false equivalency and a categorical error. Luffys fruit has special properties that break the norm.

Dont get me wrong. There are many inconsistencies. Look at Mr 3 who only produces wax whilst Mr 1 remains as hard as steel at all times. Marco can activate his powers on specific body parts. You are making an assumption. Something I don't agree with. Fix this foundational pillar and your argument becomes coherent.

As for the rest-

Starting with Lucci and choppers statements on devil fruits

-conditions of both fighters before the battle truly begins

-doriki strength of the fighters

-experience with devil fruit

-difficulty of both fights

-overall portrayal

Starting with an analysis of Sanji's fight:

1. Devil Fruit experience factor:
Lucci's statement that Devil Fruit experience is often the deciding factor in battles adds significant weight to Jabra's many years of experience with his Wolf-Wolf Fruit.

Especially after the narrative framing was when he gave kaku and khalifa their own fruits.

2. Sanji's performance:
Despite being heavily injured from his encounter with Khalifa, Sanji handled Jabra more easily compared to Zoro's struggle with Kaku.
Sanji was not on the losing end for the majority of the fight, showcasing his combat prowess even in a weakened state.

3. Diable Jambe power-up:
Sanji also unveiled a new technique, Diable Jambe, during this fight.
Unlike Zoro's Asura, which was necessary for victory, Sanji's use of Diable Jambe seemed more like an enhancement to his already effective fighting style.

4. Stamina and tactics:
Sanji's apparent struggle near the end of the fight was more due to low stamina from his previous injury than being outmatched.
This struggle was partly a facade, masking Sanji's tactical approach to the fight.
Sanji ultimately regained the dominant role, indicating his superior combat intellect and adaptability.

1. Doriki and base strength:
Kaku (2200) and Jabra (2180) had nearly identical Doriki levels.
This suggests Zoro and Sanji were intended to face equally strong opponents in terms of raw physical power. Otherwise why would the author place them so close together? A difference of 2 marines.

2. Pre-battle conditions:
Zoro entered his fight fresh.
Sanji was heavily injured from his encounter with Kalifa.

3. Devil Fruit factor:
Jabra had 8 years of experience with his carnivorous Zoan fruit.
Kaku had just acquired his Zoan fruit.
Lucci's statement about Devil Fruit experience being a deciding factor suggests Jabra had a significant advantage over Kaku in this aspect.

4. Battle progression:
Zoro vs. Kaku:
Zoro struggled for most of the fight, taking damage even when defending.
Victory was achieved through the spontaneous awakening of Asura.

Sanji vs. Jabra:
Despite injuries, Sanji handled Jabra more easily.
Sanji unveiled Diable Jambe, but it wasn't as crucial to his victory as Asura was for Zoro.
Sanji's apparent struggles were partly tactical, leading to him reasserting dominance.

5. Power-up comparison:
Zoro's Asura was necessary for victory, suggesting his base level was below Kaku's.
Sanji's Diable Jambe enhanced his already effective fighting style but wasn't vital for victory.

6. Combat effectiveness:
Sanji demonstrated higher base combat effectiveness, considering his injured state and opponent's Devil Fruit mastery.
Zoro showed higher potential with Asura but struggled at his base level against a less experienced Devil Fruit user.

7. Tactical prowess:
Sanji's ability to feign struggle and then reassert dominance showcases superior combat intellect and adaptability.

8. Stamina and endurance:
Sanji's performance while injured demonstrates exceptional endurance.
His tactical approach to managing low stamina indicates a high level of fighting experience and intelligence.

Answering the original question:

When extrapolating the strength of Zoro and Sanji based on their Enies Lobby fights:

1. Base strength:
Sanji appears to have a higher base strength than initially indicated by Doriki levels, given his performance while injured against a more experienced opponent.
Zoro's base strength seems closer to or slightly below Kaku's level, necessitating Asura for victory.

2. Potential and growth:
Zoro's spontaneous Asura technique suggests a high potential for power growth.
Sanji's effective use of tactics and new techniques while injured indicates a well-rounded combat ability with room for refinement.

3. Combat style:
Zoro relies more on power bursts and technique mastery.
Sanji excels in tactical fighting, adaptability, and consistent high-level performance even under adverse conditions.

4. Future matchups:
Zoro might struggle initially against opponents with similar or higher base strength but has the potential for significant power-ups.
Sanji is likely to perform well consistently, even against stronger opponents, due to his tactical acumen and adaptability.

5. Relative standing:
This analysis suggests that Sanji's overall combat effectiveness might be closer to Zoro's than their portrayal sometimes indicates, especially when considering performance under adverse conditions.

While Zoro and Sanji are often portrayed as having a clear strength hierarchy, their Enies Lobby fights suggest a more nuanced comparison. Sanji's performance indicates a higher base level and more well-rounded combat ability, while Zoro shows higher potential for power growth. This sets up intriguing possibilities for their future development and matchups in the series.

when compared to luffy we can see that his fight was much more even than when compared to Zoro's fight. Zoro struggled almost the entire time and for the majority of the fight, was on defense and eventually he was overwhelmed and used asura.

the final attack doesn't determine the difficulty. It's everything else

 

[Garps tekkai]

Sanji's next PU is likely going to be a mid fight PU and I think it's happening against the BBPs.
And Avalo Pizarro is the only guy with a challenging gimmick besides Shiryu (and Aokiji). Hence I think he will get that Sai DC by unlocking ID CoA.
It's how I can see Oda appropriately implementing a proper PU for Sanji.
The stack of IJ and ID CoA might then mimick the power of advCoC.

 

[Wizak08]

Current luffy vs current sanji.

Obviously sanji loses to g5 luffy. Clearly it's not low diff. Sanji is easily pushing kuzaru to high diff.

This is how oda and I view the power ranking on the crew. It's canonical.

I think zoro and sanji together, handily beat luffy. 4380 is comfortably over 4000

This is supposed to parralel the strawhats strengths as they are the strawhats opponents. This pattern is consistent in every arc. This is also consistent in most crews.

This is something that only ranked physical strength and didn't take into account anything else. No way you believe Sanji can box eith Kaido like Luffy was doing it? How will he even do so when unlike Luffy who had 3 advanced forms of haki, he has none? What feats does Sanji have that show he pushes Kaido beyond low diff?

 

[BillSlipton]

This is something that only ranked physical strength and didn't take into account anything else. No way you believe Sanji can box eith Kaido like Luffy was doing it? How will he even do so when unlike Luffy who had 3 advanced forms of haki, he has none? What feats does Sanji have that show he pushes Kaido beyond low diff?

I never said that. I said that I think that sanji is just over half of luffys strength and I do believe sanjis best attack can hurt luffy pretty badly.

 

[Wizak08]

I never said that. I said that I think that sanji is just over half of luffys strength and I do believe sanjis best attack can hurt luffy pretty badly.

How do you define strength? What has Sanji shown that can push base Luffy beyond low diff?

 

[BillSlipton]

This is something that only ranked physical strength and didn't take into account anything else. No way you believe Sanji can box eith Kaido like Luffy was doing it? How will he even do so when unlike Luffy who had 3 advanced forms of haki, he has none? What feats does Sanji have that show he pushes Kaido beyond low diff?

How do you define strength? What has Sanji shown that can push base Luffy beyond low diff?

I've already explained my metrics. I also included context for the strength outside of just physical power with luccus statements and choppers statements in this same arc. Read what I type out and you'll have your answer.

Strength manifest in many ways. Physical strength. Devil Fruit powers. Intellect. Pick one and I'll define it. Strength is power/ force

 

[grey matter]

More than that, just like Albino with Zoro/Mihawk, he acts like he doesn't hate Sanji (though Albino went a bit unhinged and lost his old subtlety).

Not sure what triggered this because it was so sudden and the difference is so night and day that you'd almost think it's another person behind the account

I think it's the "Gaban shoulder to shoulder with Roger" that broke him lol.

Dude (and many Luffy fans) was pushing for Gaban so much, so that he can shit on Rayleigh and Zoro.

Only for a massive backfire with Roger himself getting dragged lmfao.

 

[mrtsrdr]

Actually , Blackbeard matchups are guaranteed. But he does not need to know coc for that, if admiral, again no need to know, since any admiral does not have, if holy knights, he has to unlock. It depends matchups :)

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

Master his gooner Haki like Gaban has.

 

[nik87]

I know y'all think I hate Sanji because I think he’s ass but he’s clearly the most interesting Strawhat to discuss because of the ambiguity in his strength. So in this thread I’m not bashing him but curious to what you think Sanji needs to reach the levels that the current fandom is expecting him to reach?

In my opinion:
1. Future Sight - This would be great for Sanjis fighting style and really complement his speed. The reason I say that is because speed seems to be the best counter to FS but if the user is as fast as Sanji it’ll be almost impossible to outspeed him.

2. ACoA Internal Destruction - This would add a lot to Sanji’s fighting style. He is a CQC master that focuses on potency as opposed to AOE so this would add to the potency of his attacks and allow him to bypass the defenses of characters like Kaido and Big Mom.

There are a few more things that would really push him over the edge but I don’t think are necessary like:

ACoC - just to add power (but Oda can already buff his attack power however much he wants.

Ranged Attacks - But his speed should allow him to blitz most characters to dodge or attack which can cover range.

I think the two points earlier should be enough to get him to low top tier or maybe even mid. Mind you, in my opinion low top tiers are people like Law and mid top tier would be someone like Kizaru.

While FS is possible and likely for Sanji to get, I think it would downplay him more than it would do good.
Sanji already has his equivalent of ID CoA, since Enies Lobby, his heat deals internal damage.

Other than that, it is easy for Sanji to surpass PK level where Oda wants him to be in the end.
How will he do it? The same way he progressed so far - through heat.

Every power-up Sanji has had in the show has been through heat and he will continue to do exactly the same.
Even the awakening of the exoskeleton has only one purpose - for him to handle even greater heat.

While you may think that is lame and no way that will allow Sanji to surpass the PK, just you wait until people like Akainu start getting burned by Sanji's heat. Then it will sink in.
Also, Law and Kidd are not in the top tier, top tiers dont get trashed by other top tiers. Either way, Law and Kidd arent Sanji's ceiling.