Fanclub The V̶i̶n̶s̶m̶o̶k̶e̶ Sanji FC: The Prince of love

[Royal Kick]

You can't just have your conclusion and then try to pick the evidence to support it. You are supposed to gather the evidence and then come to a conclusion. What you're doing is the opposite of logic and reasoning. It's also kind of antithetical to any objective standard ever. You're just like, "Hey, these are my criteria," and this cherry picked and context devoid metrics are what I've deemed as not passing my criteria.

The idea that I decided beforehand Sanji's AP was his relative weakness before looking for evidences to support this, is completely nonsensical and I suspect you only came up with that random assumption so you could give more weight to your rebuttal.

The term "relative" made it perfectly clear I was talking about opponents he has to defeat with a PU, and it was said in the context of him getting a PU to finish off Pizarro in his giant rock form. If my intent was to make a general claim not based on evidences and without thinking about it, I wouldn't have been so specific in my wording. You're not making any sense.

To call something a strawman, you have to show how someone distorted your actual position. That never happened. You said Sanji’s AP is his relative weakness, and I and others pointed out that is just wrong because the evidence shows his AP consistently keeps pace with his opponents at every stage. That is a disagreement, not a distortion.

Which is exactly what I did. When I make it very clear I'm talking about AP in relation to opponents Sanji has to improve his AP against to win the fight and the guy keeps posting panels showing general AP in the story, talks about Kizaru's "speed is weight" comment, or posts a panel literally proving my point (i.e Sanji improving his AP against Queen to finally win the fight) as a response to the imaginary claim that Sanji has weak AP, it's a straw man.

Him being able to hurt his opponents with his AP only addresses this imaginary claim, but not what I actually said. I noticed some people have this tendency to constantly post a ton of panels, even when they don't actually address what was said, and think it makes their posts automatically good. Well, it doesn't.

You can twist it and word it any way you like, this won't change the fact it's clearly a straw man.

You keep moving the goalposts. When otherw bring up feats showing Sanji’s AP working against high durability enemies such as Jabra and Oars, you wave them off as irrelevant. But you are the one who claimed AP was the area he needs to improve. Proving that wrong requires showing examples where his AP was already sufficient. That is literally the counter evidence you asked for.

I never moved the goalposts, that's a blatant lie. I've been consistent and said the exact same thing from the very start. It's just you and your friend who desperately wish I did so, and try to paint me as a dishonest poster to justify your aggressive response. Another tactic used by someone else was to claim I only used the term "relative" so it wouldn't sound like I'm bashing Sanji. Basically, you guys are looking for any excuse to claim I said something egregious only because the term "weakness" triggered you.

Your initial reaction was to try intimidation tactics with your "let's get it" comment and saying I've got "the best Sanji defenders' attention", and you even went as far as ordering me to get out of the FC. It's very obvious what you are about. And now you're clumsily trying to take an intellectual approach with this far-fetched, contrived load of nonsense? Lol. You're not fooling anyone.

Sanji did not need Ifrit Jambe to beat Queen. It was overkill. He was dodging and countering everything before the exoskeleton confusion even started. The exoskeleton power up was an amplifier, not a fix for a deficiency. Pretending it covered up a weakness is just your own conclusion looking for evidence, not the other way around.

So overkill that he needed multiple IJ kicks to take him down. What's next, he didn't need DJ to defeat Jabra? Sanji being able to hold his own against Queen and hurt him has nothing to do with the fact he needed IJ to emerge victorious in the end, which is the whole point of IJ. Oda didn't give him a PU for no reason, he needed it as much Zoro needed Enma and CoC to defeat King.

Your logic is completely backwards. You started with Sanji’s AP is his weakest stat, and now you are cherry picking moments that might fit that idea while ignoring full fight context and character progression. That is not reasoning. That is confirmation bias.

Another imaginary claim. It can't be cherry-picking or confirmation bias when I never made such a statement in the first place. Sanji's AP being his relative weakness against specific opponents he needs an AP boost to defeat =/= AP being his weakest stat. I don't know what his weakest stat is, maybe AoE or long-range attacks. I don't care enough about power level debates to know all the relevant terms.

And if we are talking relative stats, Sanji’s AP, speed, and endurance are all proportionally higher than the vast majority of commanders. Saying speed is just his best one does not magically make AP a weak point. That is like saying Zoro’s defense is weak because his offense is insane. It is nonsense

What's nonsense is insisting endlessly on disputing imaginary claims because you can't come up with a proper counterargument addressing my actual point. I never said Sanji's opponents had better AP, I talked about the AP needed to take them down.

I must know why start with Enies Lobby? Why focus on Sanji specifically when Chopper, Robin, Usopp, Zoro, and Luffy all got AP power ups this same arc?

Because the discussion was specifically about Sanji and what he was gonna need to defeat his BBP opponent? And that his AP-based PUs allowing him to win has been the trend since Enies Lobby, and his next PU against a BBP is very likely gonna be AP-based as well? Exactly when did I compare his AP to anyone else in the crew, or mention anyone else's AP at all? This level of insecurity is off the charts.

The only time I did was when Hamlette brought up Luffy and Zoro, and I clearly said Luffy had a relative AP issue against Kaido that he needed to overcome to be able to defeat him, same with Zoro against King. Then Hamlette behaved like a normal human being who got my point but simply disagreed with the idea of Sanji's next PU against a BBP being AP-based, instead of strawmaning me, accusing me of moving the goalposts, calling me a fake Sanji fan or trying to pressure me into leaving the FC.

Like I said, you guys are suffering from Sanji bashing PTSD and it makes you paranoid, ignoring the fact I regularly argue with his haters (my post history speaks for itself). I've been posting in this FC since June (first as Max and later with my current account) and it's the first time this issue arises, it's bonkers. You'd be a better judge of character if it wasn't for your selective memory.

 

[Rumble]

snip

Good post but wasted effort.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

The Cook FC has gone up in flames
And only about 4 or 5 chapters before Sanji does his first clash with Majin Brogy too

 

[RayanOO]

The Cook FC has gone up in flames

We love to see it 😈

Post automatically merged: Oct 17, 2025

Sanji does his first clash with Majin Brogy too

Majin Xebec will show us how much of a boost a reversi mode gives

will help us gauge the Majin Giants

 

[Sir Yasheen]

We love to see it 😈

Post automatically merged: Oct 17, 2025

Majin Xebec will show us how much of a boost a reversi mode gives

will help us gauge the Majin Giants

Tbh idk if we can make an easy gauge because the GV Majins seem to be from Garling not Imu.

 

[RayanOO]

Tbh idk if we can make an easy gauge because the GV Majins seem to be from Garling not Imu.

I don’t think Garling has the power to domi reversi other people

Imu was likely in the shadow or inside Saturn ever since the beginning of the fight

 

[Sir Yasheen]

I don’t think Garling has the power to domi reversi other people

Imu was likely in the shadow or inside Saturn ever since the beginning of the fight

Idk the sudden burst of haki when Imu arrived makes it seem like Imu wasn’t on the island till then. Maybe Imus grimoire stores the fruit abilities of those he gives immortality too and DR is just Garlings or the female HKs ability

 

[Royal Kick]

The Cook FC has gone up in flames

Sorry, I never wanted this.

And only about 4 or 5 chapters before Sanji does his first clash with Majin Brogy too

Aww, that optimism is cute. 10 chapters is probably closer to the truth.

 

[RayanOO]

Maybe Imus grimoire stores the fruit abilities of those he gives immortality too and DR is just Garlings or the female HKs ability

I don’t really see it but let’s see

Imu is the demon lord it woudl be weird if someone else other than him has the power to turn other people too

 

[Royal Kick]

I don’t think Garling has the power to domi reversi other people

Imu was likely in the shadow or inside Saturn ever since the beginning of the fight

 

[Sir Yasheen]

I don’t really see it but let’s see

Imu is the demon lord it woudl be weird if someone else other than him has the power to turn other people too

I mean the way he summoned that shotgun too. That could be explained using Killinghams fruit.

And making immortal puppets is not a new fruit power since that’s part of Moriah’s kit too. Maybe Garling just has a power like that. We genuinely may have just not seen any of Imus true powers.

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Nasty!

 

[Raiden7]

Color of conqueror soon

 

[BillSlipton]

The idea that I decided beforehand Sanji's AP was his relative weakness before looking for evidences to support this, is completely nonsensical and I suspect you only came up with that random assumption so you could give more weight to your rebuttal.

The term "relative" made it perfectly clear I was talking about opponents he has to defeat with a PU, and it was said in the context of him getting a PU to finish off Pizarro in his giant rock form. If my intent was to make a general claim not based on evidences and without thinking about it, I wouldn't have been so specific in my wording. You're not making any sense.


Which is exactly what I did. When I make it very clear I'm talking about AP in relation to opponents Sanji has to improve his AP against to win the fight and the guy keeps posting panels showing general AP in the story, talks about Kizaru's "speed is weight" comment, or posts a panel literally proving my point (i.e Sanji improving his AP against Queen to finally win the fight) as a response to the imaginary claim that Sanji has weak AP, it's a straw man.

Him being able to hurt his opponents with his AP only addresses this imaginary claim, but not what I actually said. I noticed some people have this tendency to constantly post a ton of panels, even when they don't actually address what was said, and think it makes their posts automatically good. Well, it doesn't.

You can twist it and word it any way you like, this won't change the fact it's clearly a straw man.


I never moved the goalposts, that's a blatant lie. I've been consistent and said the exact same thing from the very start. It's just you and your friend who desperately wish I did so, and try to paint me as a dishonest poster to justify your aggressive response. Another tactic used by someone else was to claim I only used the term "relative" so it wouldn't sound like I'm bashing Sanji. Basically, you guys are looking for any excuse to claim I said something egregious only because the term "weakness" triggered you.

Your initial reaction was to try intimidation tactics with your "let's get it" comment and saying I've got "the best Sanji defenders' attention", and you even went as far as ordering me to get out of the FC. It's very obvious what you are about. And now you're clumsily trying to take an intellectual approach with this far-fetched, contrived load of nonsense? Lol. You're not fooling anyone.


So overkill that he needed multiple IJ kicks to take him down. What's next, he didn't need DJ to defeat Jabra? Sanji being able to hold his own against Queen and hurt him has nothing to do with the fact he needed IJ to emerge victorious in the end, which is the whole point of IJ. Oda didn't give him a PU for no reason, he needed it as much Zoro needed Enma and CoC to defeat King.


Another imaginary claim. It can't be cherry-picking or confirmation bias when I never made such a statement in the first place. Sanji's AP being his relative weakness against specific opponents he needs an AP boost to defeat =/= AP being his weakest stat. I don't know what his weakest stat is, maybe AoE or long-range attacks. I don't care enough about power level debates to know all the relevant terms.


What's nonsense is insisting endlessly on disputing imaginary claims because you can't come up with a proper counterargument addressing my actual point. I never said Sanji's opponents had better AP, I talked about the AP needed to take them down.


Because the discussion was specifically about Sanji and what he was gonna need to defeat his BBP opponent? And that his AP-based PUs allowing him to win has been the trend since Enies Lobby, and his next PU against a BBP is very likely gonna be AP-based as well? Exactly when did I compare his AP to anyone else in the crew, or mention anyone else's AP at all? This level of insecurity is off the charts.

The only time I did was when Hamlette brought up Luffy and Zoro, and I clearly said Luffy had a relative AP issue against Kaido that he needed to overcome to be able to defeat him, same with Zoro against King. Then Hamlette behaved like a normal human being who got my point but simply disagreed with the idea of Sanji's next PU against a BBP being AP-based, instead of strawmaning me, accusing me of moving the goalposts, calling me a fake Sanji fan or trying to pressure me into leaving the FC.

Like I said, you guys are suffering from Sanji bashing PTSD and it makes you paranoid, ignoring the fact I regularly argue with his haters (my post history speaks for itself). I've been posting in this FC since June (first as Max and later with my current account) and it's the first time this issue arises, it's bonkers. You'd be a better judge of character if it wasn't for your selective memory.

Well I'm glad you had the courage to respond. Most abandon ship when it's sinking. I have much more respect for someone that's willing to engage in good faith, though. Something you are not doing currently.

For example; I can totally picture a giant version of Pizarro made of red rock with trees on his head, with Sanji having to overcome his (relative) weakness, which is AP, to destroy Red Line.

This is you attempting to convey the concept of there being a narrative portrayal of Sanji having a relative weakness with AP. Define relative. It seems you're misusing it.

Here's you again emphasizing some type of portrayal that is unique to Sanji specifically; I added "relative" for a reason, AP isn't his strongest suit.

Again, I would need proof of this so-called portrayal or any evidence at all supporting your position. You're great at obfuscation, but that doesn't help you win debates. It only shifts the focus onto another shitty take of yours.

So here's a checklist:

1) An explanation of the criteria you've chosen, and why you chose such metrics.

2) Evidence of supposed AP weakness narrative.

3) You must allow cross-examination to check the consistency and validity of your evidence and application thereof.

4) You need a conclusion after analyzing the evidence.

If it is the case that you gathered the evidence and came to the conclusion that Sanji has an AP issue, then evidence should be a non-issue.

If it is the case, then the evidence you provided for your argument is now up for examination. From what I can tell, you cited Ennies Lobby as a moment of importance. This is where Sanji supposedly needed to improve his AP in order to beat Jabra. Well, my position is that Diable Jambe was overkill for Jabra as well. The difference between me and you is that I have evidence to support my position, and I will now provide it below:

We have evidence from the manga, specifically from Jabra and Sanji's dialogue, and the narrative context itself.

Jabra started off the fight telling Sanji his iron body would make all his attacks useless, as he has the best Tekkai in all of CP9.

Then Jabra makes this comment while grimacing in pain, still denying the effectiveness of Sanji's attacks while internally noting they are effective.

Then as we continue to the next flurry of blows immediately after this panel, we can see Jabra, who was tanking every attack, is now dodging a ferocious brochette blow (the anime does it justice as well).

So we have Jabra's own words and reactions changing from confident and tanking every attack to eventually grimacing in pain and then running away from Sanji's attacks.

It would seem to me that Sanji was damn near close to completely destroying his iron body technique with brochette blow. The best iron body user in CP9 and he still ran. Seems like the opposite of an AP issue and more of an overkill situation to pull out Diable Jambe if he was already making Jabra cough up blood and run away from his attacks.

Mind you, this is a half-dead Sanji who took a beating from Khalifa. He was out of commission for several chapters.

Imagine a fresh Sanji, one who hasn't taken a lot of damage before his ultimate showdown. Damage so severe he was out of commission like Akainu was versus Whitebeard.

The conclusion of this analysis so far is that you are simply inferring these things as truth and not actually offering anything of substance or note.

I'm willing to take this point by point. I'm also willing to let you cross-examine my evidence and see if it holds up under logical consistency. Can you say the same?

We can talk about the Queen fight as well. I want to. This is my take:

If a fighter is consistently landing clean hits and forcing an opponent to dodge or retreat, that shows offensive AP is already effective.

If the opponent’s first successful damaging or decisive strike only comes after the hero is mentally/physically compromised (by his cloudy mind and exoskeleton), that implies the hero was not fundamentally outclassed from the start.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude Sanji was outclassing Queen in offense and technique prior to the exoskeleton activation and his cloudy mind, and Ifrit Jambe functioned as escalation or amplification rather than a patch for a prior AP deficit.

The Jabra comparison strengthens this pattern: in both cases, Sanji lands hits, forces a defensive reaction from a durability-focused opponent, and only later uses a flashy upgrade. That is classic shonen escalation, not proof of an inherent AP shortcoming.

Show the panel where Sanji’s hits have zero effect before Ifrit. Queen’s reactions and retreat show impact.

PUs are narrative escalation. If the text and art show Sanji forcing defensive behavior before the PU, the narrative did not portray AP as insufficient.

Pick the exact panel that proves Sanji’s AP was ineffective prior to Ifrit, and I’ll analyze it. You will not find it.

So unless you plan on claiming that half-dead Sanji outclassing the guy with the best iron body in CP9 counts as a weakness, I think the evidence speaks for itself.

The panels are right there. They tell the story. Any claim that AP was a weakness has to contend with what the manga explicitly shows.

But most of all, why Sanji? Every Straw Hat, including Luffy and Zoro, has had these moments, and always in the same arcs. So why single out Sanji?

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2025

Btw we all know im the best sanji defender in this entire forum. @RayanOO where's my damn promotion

 

[Royal Kick]

Nasty!

Hey his words, not mine.

 

[BillSlipton]

Hey his words, not mine.

Dont run away baby. Engage in debate. Youre losing. I want to put my finisher down but I need you to flail like an idiot in denial first

 

[RayanOO]

Btw we all know im the best sanji defender in this entire forum. @RayanOO where's my damn promotion

 

[Juanpiz]

Kizaru?

 

[Royal Kick]

AI-generated images:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I think it's a shame artists rarely come up with fanarts reflecting new and unique ideas coming from their imagination, they too often base their work on things that already happened in the manga despite having the ability to make what they envision come to life and show it to everyone. It's frustrating. Hence we have to resort to garbage AI, which can never completely capture what you have in mind.

 

[kekaro]

Well I'm glad you had the courage to respond. Most abandon ship when it's sinking. I have much more respect for someone that's willing to engage in good faith, though. Something you are not doing currently.

For example; I can totally picture a giant version of Pizarro made of red rock with trees on his head, with Sanji having to overcome his (relative) weakness, which is AP, to destroy Red Line.

This is you attempting to convey the concept of there being a narrative portrayal of Sanji having a relative weakness with AP. Define relative. It seems you're misusing it.

Here's you again emphasizing some type of portrayal that is unique to Sanji specifically; I added "relative" for a reason, AP isn't his strongest suit.

Again, I would need proof of this so-called portrayal or any evidence at all supporting your position. You're great at obfuscation, but that doesn't help you win debates. It only shifts the focus onto another shitty take of yours.

So here's a checklist:

1) An explanation of the criteria you've chosen, and why you chose such metrics.

2) Evidence of supposed AP weakness narrative.

3) You must allow cross-examination to check the consistency and validity of your evidence and application thereof.

4) You need a conclusion after analyzing the evidence.

If it is the case that you gathered the evidence and came to the conclusion that Sanji has an AP issue, then evidence should be a non-issue.

If it is the case, then the evidence you provided for your argument is now up for examination. From what I can tell, you cited Ennies Lobby as a moment of importance. This is where Sanji supposedly needed to improve his AP in order to beat Jabra. Well, my position is that Diable Jambe was overkill for Jabra as well. The difference between me and you is that I have evidence to support my position, and I will now provide it below:

We have evidence from the manga, specifically from Jabra and Sanji's dialogue, and the narrative context itself.

Jabra started off the fight telling Sanji his iron body would make all his attacks useless, as he has the best Tekkai in all of CP9.

Then Jabra makes this comment while grimacing in pain, still denying the effectiveness of Sanji's attacks while internally noting they are effective.

Then as we continue to the next flurry of blows immediately after this panel, we can see Jabra, who was tanking every attack, is now dodging a ferocious brochette blow (the anime does it justice as well).

So we have Jabra's own words and reactions changing from confident and tanking every attack to eventually grimacing in pain and then running away from Sanji's attacks.

It would seem to me that Sanji was damn near close to completely destroying his iron body technique with brochette blow. The best iron body user in CP9 and he still ran. Seems like the opposite of an AP issue and more of an overkill situation to pull out Diable Jambe if he was already making Jabra cough up blood and run away from his attacks.

Mind you, this is a half-dead Sanji who took a beating from Khalifa. He was out of commission for several chapters.

Imagine a fresh Sanji, one who hasn't taken a lot of damage before his ultimate showdown. Damage so severe he was out of commission like Akainu was versus Whitebeard.

The conclusion of this analysis so far is that you are simply inferring these things as truth and not actually offering anything of substance or note.

I'm willing to take this point by point. I'm also willing to let you cross-examine my evidence and see if it holds up under logical consistency. Can you say the same?

We can talk about the Queen fight as well. I want to. This is my take:

If a fighter is consistently landing clean nein hits and forcing an opponent to dodge or retreat, that shows offensive AP is already effective.

If the opponent’s first successful damaging or decisive strike only comes after the hero is mentally/physically compromised (by his cloudy mind and exoskeleton), that implies the hero was not fundamentally outclassed from the start.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude Sanji was outclassing Queen in offense and technique prior to the exoskeleton activation and his cloudy mind, and Ifrit Jambe functioned as escalation or amplification rather than a patch for a prior AP deficit.

The Jabra comparison strengthens this pattern: in both cases, Sanji lands hits, forces a defensive reaction from a durability-focused opponent, and only later uses a flashy upgrade. That is classic shonen escalation, not proof of an inherent AP shortcoming.

Show the panel where Sanji’s hits have zero effect before Ifrit. Queen’s reactions and retreat show impact.

PUs are narrative escalation. If the text and art show Sanji forcing defensive behavior before the PU, the narrative did not portray AP as insufficient.

Pick the exact panel that proves Sanji’s AP was ineffective prior to Ifrit, and I’ll analyze it. You will not find it.

So unless you plan on claiming that half-dead Sanji outclassing the guy with the best iron body in CP9 counts as a weakness, I think the evidence speaks for itself.

The panels are right there. They tell the story. Any claim that AP was a weakness has to contend with what the manga explicitly shows.

But most of all, why Sanji? Every Straw Hat, including Luffy and Zoro, has had these moments, and always in the same arcs. So why single out Sanji?

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2025

Btw we all know im the best sanji defender in this entire forum. @RayanOO where's my damn promotion

Eternal reminder that Sanji finished Jabra in a half dead state faster than Luffy finishing blueno btw.