Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

Logiko, you ever heard of the problem of the underdetermination of evidence? The problem is the idea that empirical evidence alone is often insufficient to determine which of several competing scientific theories is true, because different theories can explain the same observations equally well.

And you know which science is more underderminated? Sociology (along with history). So you need to be more cautious about that

You seems to believe that some sociological theories are an apoditic truth sometimes

I know and I'm very carefull about the scientificity of what I advance. Under determination can indeed be a problem in sociology, it's a human science after all. But we need to be careful and not fall into the opposite mindset thinking sociology can't be a robust science like any other and use this argument to undermine it. While it is one of the most recent science, it is fundamental to take it seriously.

You seems to believe that some sociological theories are an apoditic truth sometimes

No. I rather use system/webs of bodies of evidences. I have multiple reading grid to analyze reality. Sociology is one, historical materialism is another. Both work in tandem and while they are robust, they are not perfect and need to be reason with clarity and critical thinking and must be analyzed through our own biases. Just like any other reading grid. Like you said, we must be careful.

You seems to believe that some sociological theories are an apoditic truth sometimes

Be sure to know, that I'm not blindly following trendy stuff, while it might appear like it because I need to make a form of propaganda here. I'm being very critical of everything I learn all the time, especially about sociology and materialism.

Feeling guilty should only be the first step, to be followed by actions that lead to a change in culture and how we interact with members of other communities.
Example: anthropology students diving into old archives of human skulls with racist ass labels attached such as "adult male of the negroid type, Congo basin, 1889", sifting through written documentation with the goal to find information on the person's identity and community the remains were stolen from, putting in motion a potential repatriation of the remains.

When we remain in the state of guilt, we eventually ease into self hatred that leads to nothing our relationship with other cultures would benefit from. Which is why naming white guilt matters.
It's pervasive to feel perpetually guilty of something we, personally, didn't do and had no influence on, it soothes our ego to cultivate a personality that constantly wallows in guilt and puts our own heritage down because it's easy to satisfy our sense of guilt by simply repeating "we are guilty and evil and our heritage is to blame" ad nauseam.

Furthermore, it allows us to leave the deeper questions unasked, such as: "how does colonialism begin? Why did our ancestors benefit from it? How does it affect the victims and their views on us?"
By going the easy way and looking for the cause exclusively within our very own culture, without taking into account the multiple other instances of colonialism and imperialism worldwide, we deprive ourselves of the ability to learn about the psychological and sociological mechanisms inherent to entirety of the human species, thus doing both ourselves, the descendants of the people we colonized as well as all of humankind a big disservice.

The evils of colonialism and imperialism must be tracked down to its root, only then is a future possible where the horrors of the past are not perpetuated(or less perpetuated. China and Russia are catching up rapidly and these two being much better than the Europeans simply because it's their first time doing it is not a rare stance among Africans in Africa). Both by our own group of people as well as others.

I don't know why you are talking about guilt. I don't know what kind of guilt you feel, but I do not feel any kind of guilt. Knowing and understanding whiteness or imperialism is not about guilt. It's knowledge.

im just going to wait for your explanation that is due.

exactly.

I do not feel any motivation in helping you understand the world at the moment

"All men are sexist because they are product of a patriarchal society" is on the same level as "all French are products of imperialism therefore their existence is part of the problem"

No. Rather "you can't be french (or a native white westerner) and not have neo-colonial biases".

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

No. Rather "you can't be french (or a native white westerner) and not have neo-colonial biases".

A more accurate equivalence might be "you can't be a man and not have patriarchal/sexist biases"'.
Why won't you use something like this instead?
''All men are trash''=''all white people are trash''

"Bu..but I say it like this only to trigger people and make them ask questions"
Alright 🙄
Are you seeing your fallacy now?

If some let's say indigenous American person told me "all white people are trash" I'd feel hurt and think "what have I ever done to you, I've never even been to America"

 

[Mathias]

Ranking sciences over the problem of underdetermination:

1. Highly underdetermined: social sciences and theoretical psychology

- Complex, contextual, and non-repeatable phenomena.
- Variables are numerous and interdependent.
- “Observation” strongly depends on cultural and linguistic interpretations.

Example:
In sociology, the same evidence (e.g., an increase in crime rates) can be explained by economic, cultural, institutional, or psychological theories, among others. None can be logically refuted by the data alone.

2. High-moderate: Cosmology, astrophysics, evolutionary biology, archaeology

3. Moderate: Theoretical physics, theorical chemistry

4. Low: Experimental biology, experimental chemistry, applied physics

5. Very low: Engineering, clinical medicine, experimental computing

6. Almost non-underdetermined: logic and mathematics

Thank you for the power-scaling.

Example is the increase in crime rates then ?
And it sounds like you're just making a case for inter-sectionalism in research. Am I correct ?

Example:

Psychology

Evidence: A patient’s behavior or mental symptoms.

Competing theories:

Psychoanalytic explanation (unconscious trauma)

Cognitive explanation (information processing)

Neurobiological explanation (chemical imbalance)

All fit the same observed behavior but rely on different theoretical frameworks.

Yes the causes can be many.

Another example: heliocentrism vs geocentrism

Both theories worked perfectly to explain planetary motions, but even though heliocentrism was true, it took centuries to be empirically proven. It was only with Friedrich Bessel’s measurement of stellar parallax that heliocentrism was finally confirmed as true.


This means that for centuries, even though heliocentrism was correct, it fell under the problem of underdetermination, since the available evidence could also be interpreted as supporting geocentrism.

Yeah this one is a nice example. Are you directly quoting all this from your epistemology class ?

Anyway, scientists are fairly aware of all of this too I guess.

And yeah we're living in an era with its science. Maybe we'll be corrected one day.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

scientificity

scientificity in British English
(ˌsaɪəntɪˈfɪsɪtɪ )

the application of scientific methods and principles

Your crippling biases and bad faith argumentation detached you from any application of the scientific method

Example is the increase in crime rates then ?

Lead poisoning

 

[Zenos7]

Which do you prefer? The Nazi guilt Germans or the migrant hunting Germans?

obviously the former, but i think we need to move on from the guilt.
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Just like Yamato fans😱🐰

why are yamato fans sexist and racist?
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Bro shit been going on since Thursday

just because you are not willing to listen

 

[Logiko]

A more accurate equivalence might be "you can't be a man and not have patriarchal/sexist biases"'.
Why won't you use something like this instead?
''All men are trash''=''all white people are trash''

"Bu..but I say it like this only to trigger people and make them ask questions"
Alright 🙄
Are you seeing your fallacy now?

If some let's say indigenous American person told me "all white people are trash" I'd feel hurt and think "what have I ever done to you, I've never even been to America"

That's because biases create behavior and systems. Always. It's a characteristic of leaving into a system that shape who we are. As such, to be a man means to understand that you will depict sexist behavior at one point or another. Because that how our system are shaping us. The key lies in the prevention and the understanding that to stop that, we need to break patriarchy (in this case)

Your crippling biases and bad faith argumentation detached you from any application of the scientific method

why are yamato fans sexist and racist?

More sexist than racist. Or rather cis-sexist in that case. But this is more about a fraction of Yamato fans. Most Yamato fans are very cool

 

[Zenos7]

More sexist than racist. Or rather cis-sexist in that case. But this is more about a fraction of Yamato fans. Most Yamato fans are very cool

ok cool but why?

 

[Etzel Andergast]

Thank you for the power-scaling.

Example is the increase in crime rates then ?
And it sounds like you're just making a case for inter-sectionalism in research. Am I correct ?



Yes the causes can be many.


Yeah this one is a nice example. Are you directly quoting all this from your epistemology class ?

Anyway, scientists are fairly aware of all of this too I guess.

And yeah we're living in an era with its science. Maybe we'll be corrected one day.

1. Your first question: the whole point its to explain that the social phenomenon is so complex, so contextual that you can explain a given data by multiple ways, multiple intersection ways. And for this reason is very underdeterminated

2. I dont study philosophy in the university, I just study for hobby. Some things I quote from some materials and some things I just asked for gpt to make good examples

3. The scientists, are they really aware? 😶

4. Yeah, we always will keep correcting more and more, then we will correct what we corrected before, then correct the new correction and then

 

[Logiko]

ok cool but why?

Cis-sexism is a form of sexism that usually target trans women and trans men. And a portion of the vocal yamato fanbase that I encountered was depicting this. Loving the character but belittling them at every single step, mostly because of who Yamato was identifying as, or based on the male gaze. Often falling to sanism as well. I had to defend Yamato while defending Carrot because of it..

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

why are yamato fans sexist and racist?

Never been to the nakama thread in its heyday? Politics thread logiko is HARMLESS compared to the absolute unhinged savagery this guy unleashed on anyone who dared to say Carrot won't join the crew.

 

[Zenos7]

I do not feel any motivation in helping you understand the world at the moment

 

[Logiko]

Yeah well.. Give that to yourself. Show me that you wanna evolve an maybe I will change my point of view.

 

[Zenos7]

"Bu..but I say it like this only to trigger people and make them ask questions"
Alright 🙄
Are you seeing your fallacy now?

he wont, but he will pretend it is us that dont understand the basic ass shit he is saying.
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Yeah well.. Give that to yourself. Show me that you wanna evolve an maybe I will change my point of view.

^

 

[Logiko]

he wont, but he will pretend it is us that dont understand the basic ass shit he is saying.

Funny, I already pretty much explained. You missed it.

 

[Zenos7]

Never been to the nakama thread in its heyday? Politics thread logiko is HARMLESS compared to the absolute unhinged savagery this guy unleashed on anyone who dared to say Carrot won't join the crew.

i have never been in such places, which is why i wasnt bullshitting when talking about how i initially took antilogiko seriously. i had to experience it myself in this thread

 

[Mathias]

3. The scientists, are they really aware? 😶

Indeed, not always and most of the time aren't. I was told that hard-scientists were the most ignorant about the nature of their science.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

No. I rather use system/webs of bodies of evidences

Why am I imagining corpses arranged and tied together in the shape of a large spider web? A serial killer not trying to hide the evidence but shoving it right into our face to make a statement.

And yeah we're living in an era with its science. Maybe we'll be corrected one day.

Plants can speak btw

i have never been in such places, which is why i wasnt bullshitting when talking about how i initially took antilogiko seriously. i had to experience it myself in this thread

Don't tell me you missed the pillars of storytelling, the subtext and the final glue that finally sticks all the loose ends together after all seemed lost?😢

Indeed, not always and most of the time aren't. I was told that hard-scientists were the most ignorant about the nature of their science.

Is this why many natural scientists are vehement proponents of atheism?

 

[Mathias]

Is this why many natural scientists are vehement proponents of atheism?

Nice try Blax Blah.

 

[Zenos7]

Funny, I already pretty much explained. You missed it.

you mean you repeated what we have been saying from the get-go and you didnt actually add any substance? no i didnt miss that.

But i was referring to this:




i also didnt miss you typing this:

So I'm waiting for the moment when you will show me a minimum of respect, and maybe we will be able to have a conversation.

and then saying you cant describe what this minimum of respect even is.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Nice try Blax Blah.

I'm being serious