Fanclub The V̶i̶n̶s̶m̶o̶k̶e̶ Sanji FC: The Prince of love

[Raiden7]

He's got a point though
Both theories exist because hardcore fanatics of the characters see one off throw away lines and get obsessed with those lines to the point where they make tons of theories about it happening and even when it's clear it'll never happen they still keep making these theories and trying to move the goalposts to fit their agendas.
Just like Zoro fans still coped about ZKK after Wano ended, Sanji fans still coped about evil Sanji vs Zoro happening after Wano ended too.

I'll just say it, I don't mean to be aggressive here or shoot anyone down for simply being hopeful, but I do not think Oda will ever have them fight each other in that way. There's a reason he kept it ambiguous as to who caught the bigger beast in Little Garden, he probably doesn't want the characters themselves to know the true pecking order between the two.

The two theories are not the same.

ZKK was about theorizing Zoro kill the main enemy of the wano saga. First of all, thinking Zoro can beat the boss of a saga it's already too pretentious and highly improbable. I don't even consider about Zoro literally "killing" the big bad of Wano, that's already something too much improbable to even think about it.

Sanji becoming evil because of the germa modifications (or domi reversed) is something that has a lot more possibility to come true. Actually a fight between Sanji and Zoro could be a reward to OP fans, after twenty more years of building up their rivalry. I get it that it can be a dead end, something that will never happen. But even after that, I don't think that ZKK and evil Sanji are on the same level. The latter has a continuous build up for years, while the first one was based on some hints that were clearly twisted in some way or another.

Now, Elbaf is the land of Dori and Brogi, two giants that have the same dinamic as Zoro and Sanji. Thematically the connections are there, from Little Garden to Elbaph, their fights was about a little skirmish in order to decide who is stronger. Sanji and Zoro are just the same. I'm not saying that here and now there will be a clear answer and an end to their rivalry. Oda could take advantage of this island, this situation to set the pieces in motion and let Sanji and Zoro fight for a while. Obviously I don't think there will be a clear winner but it can be the "climax" to their rivalry that is continuing for years.

 

[Royal Kick]

He's got a point though
Both theories exist because hardcore fanatics of the characters see one off throw away lines and get obsessed with those lines to the point where they make tons of theories about it happening and even when it's clear it'll never happen they still keep making these theories and trying to move the goalposts to fit their agendas.
Just like Zoro fans still coped about ZKK after Wano ended, Sanji fans still coped about evil Sanji vs Zoro happening after Wano ended too.

I'll just say it, I don't mean to be aggressive here or shoot anyone down for simply being hopeful, but I do not think Oda will ever have them fight each other in that way. There's a reason he kept it ambiguous as to who caught the bigger beast in Little Garden, he probably doesn't want the characters themselves to know the true pecking order between the two.

ZKK was just a retarded theory by fanatics who want Zoro to be the MC. But Zoro's line made it clear he was gonna face Kaido and be relevant in the fight, which is exactly what happened. Now explain to me when and how Zoro's promise to Sanji became relevant in the story. Calling it a throwaway line is intellectually dishonest, given the importance of that scene.

Misinterpretation/overinterpretation is one thing, something literally never coming to fruition is another.

 

[Jackteo]

Didn't Oda recently confirm this was a different character?

I don't trust him as far as I can throw him

Evil Sanji is like zkk

Take that back

Evil Sanji is a necessity. I get what many of you have said or implied and I agree: everything doesn't have to have a deeper meaning.

That being said, this is not a one liner or a single panel thing. The entire Germa plotline in WCI and Wano is built around Sanji's siblings being emotionless, the importance of Sora's drug/love and Sanji's fear of losing himself (something that was never actually going to happen). During the Queen fight, instead of trusting himself and facing that fear, his solution was to call Zoro and ask him to kill him. Even then, he still couldn't really deal with Queen until he realised he wasn't actually losing his mind.

DRed Sanji is the perfect opportunity to force him to face that fear and unlock his full potential. He can't keep hiding

 

[Rumble]

I still believe Gaban is the Man Marked by Flames, and I believe the ship he uses is the Oro Jackson.

Makes sense to me the navigator of Roger Pirates held on to the ship and kept it safe in Elbaph.

 

[Devilbat]

Why do we want evil Sanji again? For him to be defeated by Zoro and hear no end of how amazing Zoro is?

If it were up to me, I would rather subvert expectations and make Sanji subdue evil Zoro

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

The two theories are not the same.

ZKK was about theorizing Zoro kill the main enemy of the wano saga. First of all, thinking Zoro can beat the boss of a saga it's already too pretentious and highly improbable. I don't even consider about Zoro literally "killing" the big bad of Wano, that's already something too much improbable to even think about it.

Sanji becoming evil because of the germa modifications (or domi reversed) is something that has a lot more possibility to come true. Actually a fight between Sanji and Zoro could be a reward to OP fans, after twenty more years of building up their rivalry. I get it that it can be a dead end, something that will never happen. But even after that, I don't think that ZKK and evil Sanji are on the same level. The latter has a continuous build up for years, while the first one was based on some hints that were clearly twisted in some way or another.

Now, Elbaf is the land of Dori and Brogi, two giants that have the same dinamic as Zoro and Sanji. Thematically the connections are there, from Little Garden to Elbaph, their fights was about a little skirmish in order to decide who is stronger. Sanji and Zoro are just the same. I'm not saying that here and now there will be a clear answer and an end to their rivalry. Oda could take advantage of this island, this situation to set the pieces in motion and let Sanji and Zoro fight for a while. Obviously I don't think there will be a clear winner but it can be the "climax" to their rivalry that is continuing for years.

ZKK was just a retarded theory by fanatics who want Zoro to be the MC. But Zoro's line made it clear he was gonna face Kaido and be relevant in the fight, which is exactly what happened. Now explain to me when and how Zoro's promise to Sanji became relevant in the story. Calling it a throwaway line is intellectually dishonest, given the importance of that scene.

Misinterpretation/overinterpretation is one thing, something literally never coming to fruition is another.

I'm not saying it's as stupid as ZKK was, because it obviously isn't.
But, come on, no way you can't see some obvious parallels there.
Zoro said multiple times he wants to take Kaido's head and that he'd also round up the samurai to do so. What actually happened, though?
In that sense, isn't it pretty similar to this "Evil Sanji NEEDS to happen or Oda is a HACK!" stuff?
I'm not saying it's just impossible, it does have a (very slight) chance of happening, but I don't know why some of y'all seem to be practically begging for Oda to do it and treating it like it's the biggest Chekhov's Gun ever.

 

[Royal Kick]

I'm not saying it's as stupid as ZKK was, because it obviously isn't.
But, come on, no way you can't see some obvious parallels there.
Zoro said multiple times he wants to take Kaido's head and that he'd also round up the samurai to do so. What actually happened, though?
In that sense, isn't it pretty similar to this "Evil Sanji NEEDS to happen or Oda is a HACK!" stuff?
I'm not saying it's just impossible, it does have a (very slight) chance of happening, but I don't know why some of y'all seem to be practically begging for Oda to do it and treating it like it's the biggest Chekhov's Gun ever.

What Zoro said actually came to fruition in the story, there was actual pay-off. It's not a coincidence many people correctly guess he was gonna fight and injure Kaido.

But his promise to gather the samurai as if he was gonna be a leading figure indeed didn't go anywhere, which is why I said evil Sanji might not happen. I'm not debating whether it's gonna happen, I'm debating whether it makes sense in terms of writing to not make it happen despite setting it up, which I don't think it does.

It's weird to me how you seem to conflate what Oda should do with what he's gonna do. You believe evil Sanji isn't gonna happen because it wouldn't be the first time Oda didn't follow up with something he set up, that's fair. But how does it mean it's ok? Basically, whatever Oda chooses to do, you accept it and consider it good writing?

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Basically, whatever Oda chooses to do, you accept it and consider it good writing?

Nope.
I actually hated a good amount of things about God Valley, for example. And I don't even like Oda as a person either.
I still like this series but it has a lot of moments where the writing is bad or questionable.
The problem with Sanji vs Zoro happening is that it's just not something I see Oda doing, it was never about how well written it'd be.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

I don't think any Straw Hat is getting DRed as that's a bit too much of a hassle when they already need to fight the HKs, the dream monsters, DRed Giants, and Imunko

I wasn't really referring to DR but rather a demon/devil transformation for Sanji.
Pretty sure I've mentioned it multiple times but general thoughts are here:
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/sanjis-peak.67732/#post-6087586
Convinced he will get it at some point question however is when.
Personally always though he'd be given that powerup (along with a new form of Diable Jambe) in his fight against Laffite, which will give us a nice Devil v Angel contrast but the Imu line got me thinking if it'd be referenced in someway this arc.

With the whole CoC ting, Sanji will most likely get a new form of Diable Jambe this arc, but this is going to come much earlier than I thought as I felt we'd get this with his devil transformation.

Sanji's Jambe PUs are like so:
悪魔　（Akuma）風脚 (Diable Jambe)
魔神（Majin）風脚 (Ifrit Jambe)
So the expectation for the next one is:
魔王（Maou）風脚 (Satan Jambe)

 

[Raiden7]

I wasn't really referring to DR but rather a demon/devil transformation for Sanji.
Pretty sure I've mentioned it multiple times but general thoughts are here:
https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/sanjis-peak.67732/#post-6087586
Convinced he will get it at some point question however is when.
Personally always though he'd be given that powerup (along with a new form of Diable Jambe) in his fight against Laffite, which will give us a nice Devil v Angel contrast but the Imu line got me thinking if it'd be referenced in someway this arc.

With the whole CoC ting, Sanji will most likely get a new form of Diable Jambe this arc, but this is going to come much earlier than I thought as I felt we'd get this with his devil transformation.

Sanji's Jambe PUs are like so:
悪魔　（Akuma）風脚 (Diable Jambe)
魔神（Majin）風脚 (Ifrit Jambe)
So the expectation for the next one is:
魔王（Maou）風脚 (Satan Jambe)

I didn't like that much Ifrit Jambe as a name at first. I prefer Diable Jambe a lot, it just sounds miles better. After a while I'm kinda ok with "Ifrit Jambe", at least I'm more accustomed to it. I'm pretty worried about "Satan Jambe" or whatever Oda will call the new, presumed, variant of a new Jambe. But this is just a whim of mine.

Btw 魔王 contains 王 that is kanji for "King", it would be nice if it's the Jambe that consolidate Sanji's conqueror awakening tho.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

I don't like that much Ifrit Jambe as a name. I prefer Diable Jambe a lot, it just sounds miles better. After a while I'm kinda ok with "Ifrit Jambe", at least I'm more accustomed to it. I'm pretty worried about "Satan Jambe" or whatever Oda will call the new, presumed, variant of a new Jambe. But this is just a whim of mine.

Btw 魔王 contains 王 that is kanji for "King", it would be nice if it's the Jambe that consolidate Sanji's conqueror awakening tho.

Considering the pattern above, I think Oda went for Ifrit coz of the upgrade from "Akuma" to "Majin".
Majin is basically a high ranking demon and Ifrit is a fire weilding high ranking demon. He'd have probably liked to use a french name like Diable but not sure if there is an equivalent for Majin in french.

On the bolded bit, this is exactly why I think Sanji will be getting a new form this arc ^^
Pattern is a bit too on the nose for it to be just a coincidence.

 

[Jackteo]

Satan Jambe is as lame and edgy as King of hell, I can totally see CL²⁵Oda go down that route.
Surtr Jambe seems much more fitting, especially for an Elbaf power up

Surtr (or Surt/Surtur) in Norse mythology means "The Black One", referring to his dark, fiery appearance as a primordial fire giant from Muspelheim who wields a sword blazing brighter than the sun and is destined to bring destruction during Ragnarök, killing the god Freyr and burning the world before its rebirth.

[...]

You'll find his name transliterated as スルト, sometimes with descriptive titles like "Fire Giant King" (火の巨人王 - Hi no Kyojin-ō)

No idea if any of this is real but it is indeed fitting

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Satan Jambe is as lame and edgy as King of hell, I can totally see CL²⁵Oda go down that route.
Surtr Jambe seems much more fitting, especially for an Elbaf power up


No idea if any of this is real but it is indeed fitting

Yknow I never minded King of Hell as much as other people did. It's not the best name by far but it makes the most sense in the context of the story, he had to conquer the sword Enma (Enma = King of Hell), so he "dethroned the king" in a way

 

[Jackteo]

Yknow I never minded King of Hell as much as other people did. It's not the best name by far but it makes the most sense in the context of the story, he had to conquer the sword Enma (Enma = King of Hell), so he "dethroned the king" in a way

The name itself is good enough for an edgy guy like Zoro, naming himself the King of Hell was lame though. Arbel should have done that

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Arbel should have done that

King wouldn't know anything about kings when he's not even a conqueror. Bro shouldn't even have that nickname
Ain't the king of shit

 

[Jackteo]

King wouldn't know anything about kings when he's not even a conqueror. Bro shouldn't even have that nickname
Ain't the king of shit

Being the last surviving lunarian, I guess he is the lunarian King. I know, a king with no kingdom or people isn't that impressive but it is better than nothing

 

[Monster Zoro's Tesla Supplier]

Being the last surviving lunarian, I guess he is the lunarian King. I know, a king with no kingdom or people isn't that impressive but it is better than nothing

He still has the Seraphim

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Satan Jambe is as lame and edgy as King of hell, I can totally see CL²⁵Oda go down that route.
Surtr Jambe seems much more fitting, especially for an Elbaf power up


No idea if any of this is real but it is indeed fitting

I hear you on the corny bit tbh :risitavirus:I’m just guessing though so maybe Oda cooks up something better ^^

On the Sutur ting though, it’s indeed a cuuler name than Satan Jambe but there is no devil affiliation so I doubt it tbh. Went for Satan personally coz Sanji’s gag demon transformations seem like him but it could very well be Asmodeus or some other Demon King 🤔

 

[Devilbat]

Tbh, Oda fucked up with Sanji power up naming (or the translator did) because Ifrit is from Arabic lore and means a type of Jinn, Diablo is Spanish for devil, they don't mix into one hierarchy...

Does anyone know the original Japanese names and demonic hierarchy?

 

[Royal Kick]

I didn't like that much Ifrit Jambe as a name at first. I prefer Diable Jambe a lot, it just sounds miles better. After a while I'm kinda ok with "Ifrit Jambe", at least I'm more accustomed to it. I'm pretty worried about "Satan Jambe" or whatever Oda will call the new, presumed, variant of a new Jambe. But this is just a whim of mine.

Btw 魔王 contains 王 that is kanji for "King", it would be nice if it's the Jambe that consolidate Sanji's conqueror awakening tho.

"Hades Jambe" would be a good name imo.

Tbh, Oda fucked up with Sanji power up naming (or the translator did) because Ifrit is from Arabic lore and means a type of Jinn, Diablo is Spanish for devil, they don't mix into one hierarchy...

Does anyone know the original Japanese names and demonic hierarchy?

It's actually "Diable" and it comes from French language. I don't think Oda "fucked up", he just goes with names he finds cool imo. No need to overthink it.