Fanclub The V̶i̶n̶s̶m̶o̶k̶e̶ Sanji FC: The Prince of love

[MegaSpider]

You find that interesting because you're assuming Oda is willing to break this pattern for character development. I don't believe that, I think Oda decided to make it a pernament flaw, which not only shows his humanity but is also a testament to his love for Zeff. It's here to stay and what happened in Wano with Black Maria seemed to be Oda's way of saying Sanji doesn't need to change his ways because he has friends he can rely on and they accept him as he is.

And that would just be a rehash of what we got in Wano with Black Maria, which itself was a rehash of Ennies Lobby. It's the farthest thing from Character Development, it's just a repeat of the past. And it brings up the same question many have asked for 20 years, which is "what would Sanji do against a powerful woman if his nakama can't help him, when refusing to fight gets others killed"? Kids and their mothers are on the line, and Zaza should easily be above Nami and Robin, no ones around, he can't rely on them this time.

What would Sanji even do then if Killinghams main power, his Strongest Summon, is dealt with by others? Zoro's gonna master his aCoC and handle Super Sommers by himself, but Sanji's gonna sit back and watch his nakama beat Killingham's main power? And after Zoro and Sanji both told eachother to not screw up and handle their matchup? How's Sanji supposed to awaken CoC/PoL like that?

 

[Etemenanki]

It would be pretty sick if Sanji will defeat Zaza indirectly, upgrading his flames and making her evaporating through the heat itself.
A man can dream (Oda is going to mess this fight somehow)

 

[Royal Kick]

And that would just be a rehash of what we got in Wano with Black Maria, which itself was a rehash of Ennies Lobby. It's the farthest thing from Character Development, it's just a repeat of the past. And it brings up the same question many have asked for 20 years, which is "what would Sanji do against a powerful woman if his nakama can't help him, when refusing to fight gets others killed"? Kids and their mothers are on the line, and Zaza should easily be above Nami and Robin, no ones around, he can't rely on them this time.

What would Sanji even do then if Killinghams main power, his Strongest Summon, is dealt with by others? Zoro's gonna master his aCoC and handle Super Super Sommers by himself, but Sanji's gonna sit back and watch his nakama beat Killingham's main power? And after Zoro and Sanji both told eachother to not screw up and handle their matchup? How's Sanji supposed to awaken CoC/PoL like that?

I perfectly get your point, what I'm saying is that I don't see Oda going this route. Now, I don't know if he'd do a rehash of EL/Wano, but that's you assuming he would. There's no telling he'll have to fight Zaza at all, if Oda doesn't want him to defeat her. Unless you mean that simply refusing to fight a woman, even without getting beaten up in the process, is still a rehash in itself. But that's jut who he is.

Your question about how Sanji will get CoC is interesting, because the whole point of Zoro and Sanji getting/improving their CoC is so they can overcome HKs' immortality in the first place. If Killingham is an afterthought and not the key to Sanji getting CoC, his immortality is pretty much pointless.

Besides, Killingham is supposed to have awakening and we've yet to see what he can do with it. Zaza being the best thing he can do with his power is just an assumption on your part.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm not saying he was the bomb before the Maki boost.
I'm saying that we saw him going close and personal. He threw a giant around. He clearly can fight at close quarters.

Before he got negged by Sanji, sure. But now he has a boost to make it an actual challenge.

I hear ya on this and I also had similar expectations of Kiringham prior to him getting negg’d in CQC but after that I’m convinced his summons are his actual combat ability. I see what you’re saying with regard to his physicals also going up and they prolly have done so but reckon that boost will be reflected via his summons. Plus again if Kiringham is summoning a threatening mma that the giants are getting negg’d by does it really make sense for him to be able to take Sanji in CQC? If so won’t that make him much stronger that Super Sommers? So I’m very skeptical about that. Again I will take my L if he he’s able to threaten Sanji in CQC.

 

[MegaSpider]

I perfectly get your point, what I'm saying is that I don't see Oda going this route. Now, I don't know if he'd do a rehash of EL/Wano, but that's you assuming he would. There's no telling he'll have to fight Zaza at all, if Oda doesn't want him to defeat her. Unless you mean that simply refusing to fight a woman, even without getting beaten up in the process, is still a rehash in itself. But that's jut who he is.

Your question about how Sanji will get CoC is interesting, because the whole point of Zoro and Sanji getting/improving their CoC is so they can overcome HKs' immortality in the first place. If Killingham is an afterthought and not the key to Sanji getting CoC, his immortality is pretty much pointless.

Besides, Killingham is supposed to have awakening and we've yet to see what he can do with it. Zaza being the best thing he can do with his power is just an assumption on your part.

It's rehash in that he can't fight a woman and then has to get a nakama to do so, for the 3rd time. The whole "I do what you can't do, you do what I can't" rehash would be a repeat of wano/ennies lobby. It doesn't add anything new to Sanji that hasn't already been addressed in a previous arc. Personally, I've always wanted his chivalry challenged by a powerful female villain, where he can't just ask Nami or Robin to fight for him. Previously I thought it would be Big Mom with the WCI setup & Zeffs potential assassination, but that never happened.

Zaza is strong to the point he can't fully control it and he fears it. That itself implies it's his best. It would be weirder if he goes "actually I can awaken and summon something even stronger".

But even ignoring everything else, One thing that stands out, is that when Sanji arrives to the village, he is focused on Zaza, not Killingham. I feel like that implies that Zaza is the main threat that needs to be stopped.
It can be as simple as kill Killingham = Zaza disappears. But, fighting Zaza feels like it has way more potential for Sanji's personal development.

 

[Jackteo]

It would be pretty sick if Sanji will defeat Zaza indirectly, upgrading his flames and making her evaporating through the heat itself.
A man can dream (Oda is going to mess this fight somehow)

I think this is definitely happening. Then it will rain and Zaza will be back

 

[PuckTheGreat]

I mean its true that sanji usually gets beatup because the woman secudes you or he needs to sandbag because he is protecting a woman but killingham could just make it to do so one he figures out, no?

Will be a problem for Sanji irregardless of whether Kiringham utlizes his weakness to the best of his ability.
Regardless of whether Sanji gets his ass kicked by Zaza or not which I think is well on the cards, what I personally want to see is how Sanji will be able to overcome that weakness of being completely useless against women in this fight against Zaza.

I know I sound like a drum at this point but against Kalifa, there was nobody that was getting hurt as a result of Sanji sandbagging. The only victim of said sandbagging was Sanji. Against Black Maria the same was true but now in this situation if Sanji sandbags, the kids gets kidnapped and he's unable to protect "Elbaph" and also unable to protect the women of Elbaph that he cares so much about as those women are going to die trying to protect their kids. In this situation can Sanji really sandbag? Is Sanji going to be calling out for help here again on Elbaph from SHs that are quite literally miles away? Well Oda is a quack so it is always a possibility lol but I would be shocked if even in this situation Sanji is unable to do absolutely nothing again. Also mofos be talking Zeff this Zeff that, does anyone think Zeff would be giving Sanji a thumbs for jobbing in this situation?

Which again is why this entire dlimenma is an intriguing one and has so much potenital for Sanji development.

Now question is how Oda could potentially have Sanji overcome this situation, his he just going to back pocket his creed till after this fight is done which will also bear some sort of character growth or will Sanji stick to us guns and still be able to protect the kids from Zaza? Personally even if I think the earlier is the most realistic and the decision even Zeff himself would take I think it could be latter, which is the the more unicorns and rainbows route (Oda loves to eat his cake and have it) and reckon PoL could Sanji's answer to Zaza.
PoL is an ability that Sanji has only really used in defensive situations and in each of those situations Sanji has been doing some mental tings so I wouldn't really be surprised if Sanji pulls a rabbit out his hat again with that ability in this situation.

Again Sanji's goal here is to protect the kids and the giants and not necessarily defeat Kiringham which I think in an important distinction.

Could be wrong but the way I see things happening in this fight is:
Sanji protects the Kids from Zaza someway somehow and this situation turns Zaza on Kiringham who ends up getting eaten by a monster of his own creation.

 

[Royal Kick]

It's rehash in that he can't fight a woman and then has to get a nakama to do so, for the 3rd time. The whole "I do what you can't do, you do what I can't" rehash would be a repeat of wano/ennies lobby. It doesn't add anything new to Sanji that hasn't already been addressed in a previous arc. Personally, I've always wanted his chivalry challenged by a powerful female villain, where he can't just ask Nami or Robin to fight for him. Previously I thought it would be Big Mom with the WCI setup & Zeffs potential assassination, but that never happened.

Zaza is strong to the point he can't fully control it and he fears it. That itself implies it's his best. It would be weirder if he goes "actually I can awaken and summon something even stronger".

But even ignoring everything else, One thing that stands out, is that when Sanji arrives to the village, he is focused on Zaza, not Killingham. I feel like that implies that Zaza is the main threat that needs to be stopped.
It can be as simple as kill Killingham = Zaza disappears. But, fighting Zaza feels like it has way more potential for Sanji's personal development.

I see. If there's a moral dilemma, I imagine something simpler, like Sanji getting frustrated by Killingham's immortality and seeing the kids on the verge of dying, causing him to awaken CoC and wreck Killingham, which would make Zaza disappear. So he could feel trapped because of his inability to hit women and that could help trigger his CoC, without necessarily having to directly fight Zaza.

I guess we'll see what happens. It's nice to be able to disagree with someone and still have a healthy discussion without that someone turning into a sulking baby for no reason. If only everyone was like that. Thanks for that.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Ehhh, I really don't like Sanji's being next to the rain boobs. Unless he turns Zaza against Killingham somehow, which was kinda foreshadowed (Killingham did say he was not sure if he can control Zaza), we're fucked.

I hear you I truly do lol
Black Maria fight was a painful read so I understand the hesitation but reality is that Oda's put Sanji in this situation once again so there is no avoiding it. Question though is what exactly about "Sanji" or what exactly "narratively" is Oda tryna show in this situation.

Against Kalifa it was to higlight his kishido
Against Black Maria it was for a Sanji/Robin moment and pay off for Robin's flashback to highlight the trust her nakama have in her.
So there's most likely a reson why Oda's gone out of his way to build up this situation knowing full well as we do that Sanji is pretty useless againt women. Personally I think the only conslusion here is Sanji finding someway to overcome that weakenss himself but well just gotta wait to see what Oda's cooking up here I guess.

 

[kekaro]

I hear you I truly do lol
Black Maria fight was a painful read so I understand the hesitation but reality is that Oda's put Sanji in this situation once again so there is no avoiding it. Question though is what exactly about "Sanji" or what exactly "narratively" is Oda tryna show in this situation.

Against Kalifa it was to higlight his kishido
Against Black Maria it was for a Sanji/Robin moment and pay off for Robin's flashback to highlight the trust her nakama have in her.
So there's most likely a reson why Oda's gone out of his way to build up this situation knowing full well as we do that Sanji is pretty useless againt women. Personally I think the only conslusion here is Sanji finding someway to overcome that weakenss himself but well just gotta wait to see what Oda's cooking up here I guess.

Its also sussy that we see only female giants this week i think where zaza is?

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Its also sussy that we see only female giants this week i think where zaza is?

Exactly, don't know what Oda's cooking but the fact that female warriors in particular were highlighted fighting Zaza is interesting. Even more so when you consider what Sanji said to Bonney and Lilith when he went after Kiringham.

 

[Hedfi]

Sanji's CoC will make women unable to fight him just like he can't fight them and that's how he'll stop ZaZa.

There's no way Oda will have Sanji fight and hurt a women this late in the series even if he goes evil, it's just not happening with Oda, Wano put that plot thread in a bodybag already.

People who say that ZaZa is just an MMA and technically not a real woman are in denial. Sanji won't hurt a cardboard sign in the shape of woman even if it kills him, that's just the type of guy he is.

 

[Hedfi]

Sanji vs Viola is a foreshadowing to how women will be affected by Sanji's CoC.

 

[PuckTheGreat]

Why do you love to say you digress even when you actually don't?

I've no idea what Oda's plan is with Zaza, all I know is Sanji technically doesn't necessarily have to fight her to defeat her. And Jinbe, Nami and co might hold her off. It's not a binary choice where she's either useless or fights Sanji. We all know you just think Killingham sucks ass and don't want him anywhere near Sanji.

What do you envision regarding Killingham's awakening? Because I can't imagine Oda giving it to him if it's not gonna play a part.

MegaSpider has already made whatever points I’d have made replying to this so not gonna regurgitate that. On my thoughts on Kiringham, yes I think he’s cheeks alongside Super Sommers however, this whole Zaza dynamic makes an otherwise underwhelming fight somewhat intriguing. Don’t really care about Kiringham beyond how this fight can potentially lead to growth for Sanji.

Also personally don’t really expect anything from Kiringham beyond Zaza. So I doubt awakening if he does have it is going to introduce another dimension to this fight. Narratively speaking Zaza is his best hand.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

I thought of Sanji vs Zaza the moment Super Sommers said it's a thing they feared the most. It corelated to the Sanji dialogue of being most fearsome to WG in Thriller Bark, and how it could come into play in the story.​

 

[Hiragaro]

This Brook FB is so unnecessary right now....

 

[Raiden7]

This Brook FB is so unnecessary right now....

Because it should not be a flashback only about Brook. Probably it's more about exploration of holy knights/Imu relationship.

 

[Etemenanki]

Because it should not be a flashback only about Brook. Probably it's more about exploration of holy knights/Imu relationship.

It's basically a Gunko flashback, about how and why she was mind-controlled by Imu.

 

[Dark Knight Sanji]

This Brook FB is so unnecessary right now....

Hundreds percent its just that Oda has no idea how to resolve the arc. So he's stalling. The payoff for any reveal is always mid because the author has no idea how to finish it. Its one thibg setting things up but if you stall and cant finish things then it makes no sense. This is why all shonen fail, they set up things which is easy to do but they cant bring it home because setting up is easy.

 

[Yo Tan Wa]

Hundreds percent its just that Oda has no idea how to resolve the arc. So he's stalling. The payoff for any reveal is always mid because the author has no idea how to finish it. Its one thibg setting things up but if you stall and cant finish things then it makes no sense. This is why all shonen fail, they set up things which is easy to do but they cant bring it home because setting up is easy.

Oda also tries to subvert expectations, and goes on whim sometimes. Even two god tiers fighting ain't saving this arc. This arc will fail.