Controversial Which had Worse Copouts 4th Great Ninja War or Wano?
- Thread starter Dettles
- Start date
Nah. Say what you will but Kishimoto had Kimimaro’s (the bone guy serving Orochimaru) clan modeled after Kaguya, including bone powers similar to hers (even if it’s technically retroactively).
Nika on the other hand has no precedent at all AND was completely unnecessary because Oda could have just had Kaido defeated by group effort instead of resorting to that bullshit.
At least with Kaguya it doesn’t change too much in retrospect because being sealed she had no impact on prior arcs.
Nika on the other hand makes the WG look like such inconceivable morons it damages the prior arcs and ruins the character & personality of the protagonist!!
No one hates Naruto as a character because of Kaguya…but a lot of fans now dislike Luffy because of Nika.
Nika on the other hand has no precedent at all AND was completely unnecessary because Oda could have just had Kaido defeated by group effort instead of resorting to that bullshit.
At least with Kaguya it doesn’t change too much in retrospect because being sealed she had no impact on prior arcs.
Nika on the other hand makes the WG look like such inconceivable morons it damages the prior arcs and ruins the character & personality of the protagonist!!
No one hates Naruto as a character because of Kaguya…but a lot of fans now dislike Luffy because of Nika.
Gear Fourth was the precedent.
- It looked like a deity, gave him flame shaped hair and granted him the mythical cloud scarf for literally no reason until it was finally confirmed to be a mythical Zoan.
- Luffy could infinitely stretch his arms and change their directions at will, which surpasses the normal functions of having a rubber body.
- Tankman gave him elasticity that surpassed normal capabilities rubber.
- Luffy could increase the speed of his arms the more he changed directions, which again surpassed the normal functions of just being a rubber man.
Literally every single gear prior were abilities derived from the base function of being a rubber man with a rubber body until Gear 4 came around and completely switched up how his body functioned.
Not liking that Oda chose not the end Kaido in a team battle is another conversation altogether. But to suggest that Luffy's fruit being a mythical god fruit came out of nowhere? That isn't true. G4 made it obvious it wasn't a normal paramecia.
We knew the Kaguya clan existed via Kimimaro. Black Zetsu orchestrating everything and stabbing Madara in chest in order to pull Kaguya out of his ass was literal bullshit.
That is entirely worse than the Nika reveal. We got the first evidence of the Gum Gum Fruit being a Mythical Zoan since Dressrosa in comparison.
Nika doesn't make the WG look like complete morons. Only the Gorosei and IMU knew about Nika and they were commited to keeping any lore from the void century hidden. There could never be any agency in pursuing Luffy regardless.
> Luffy never stuck around long enough to get caught for the entire of pre timeskip.
> The closest Luffy came to dying under WG hands was in Loguetown. Dragon saved him there.
> He managed to live against and defeat the strongest CP9 agent they had.
> They were spared by Kuma once.
> Wouldve died for sure against Kizaru, but Rayleigh bailed them out and Kuma saved their lives again.
> Then later he ended up being saved from Magellan's poison by Ivankov and was carried by stronger allies from then on.
> After the events of Marineford, the real SHs were thought to be dead until they randomly showed up on Sabaody.
> They disappeared under the radar and reappeared in Dressrosa for a literal day and defeated Doffy. Fujitora let them go afterwards.
> They went under the radar again between Zou and WCI, then reappeared in Wano where they successfully had Luffy killed. Unfortunately, him dying triggered the awakening of his fruit.
Luffy was saved by a bunch of coincedences/fate. IMU admitted as much.
Hating Luffy because of Nika has nothing to do with the writing of the reveal! He fights like a fucking dumbass and that's annoying.
That's a completely different argument to which arc had worse copouts and the 4th Ninja War literally takes the award for that. No matter how annoying G5 turned out to be as a final transformation.
I'm not a fan of Nika either, but Oda ties in his worldbuilding well enough compared to the shit Kishimoto pulled with Black Zetsu and Kaguya.
- It looked like a deity, gave him flame shaped hair and granted him the mythical cloud scarf for literally no reason until it was finally confirmed to be a mythical Zoan.
- Luffy could infinitely stretch his arms and change their directions at will, which surpasses the normal functions of having a rubber body.
- Tankman gave him elasticity that surpassed normal capabilities rubber.
- Luffy could increase the speed of his arms the more he changed directions, which again surpassed the normal functions of just being a rubber man.
Literally every single gear prior were abilities derived from the base function of being a rubber man with a rubber body until Gear 4 came around and completely switched up how his body functioned.
Not liking that Oda chose not the end Kaido in a team battle is another conversation altogether. But to suggest that Luffy's fruit being a mythical god fruit came out of nowhere? That isn't true. G4 made it obvious it wasn't a normal paramecia.
We knew the Kaguya clan existed via Kimimaro. Black Zetsu orchestrating everything and stabbing Madara in chest in order to pull Kaguya out of his ass was literal bullshit.
That is entirely worse than the Nika reveal. We got the first evidence of the Gum Gum Fruit being a Mythical Zoan since Dressrosa in comparison.
Nika doesn't make the WG look like complete morons. Only the Gorosei and IMU knew about Nika and they were commited to keeping any lore from the void century hidden. There could never be any agency in pursuing Luffy regardless.
> Luffy never stuck around long enough to get caught for the entire of pre timeskip.
> The closest Luffy came to dying under WG hands was in Loguetown. Dragon saved him there.
> He managed to live against and defeat the strongest CP9 agent they had.
> They were spared by Kuma once.
> Wouldve died for sure against Kizaru, but Rayleigh bailed them out and Kuma saved their lives again.
> Then later he ended up being saved from Magellan's poison by Ivankov and was carried by stronger allies from then on.
> After the events of Marineford, the real SHs were thought to be dead until they randomly showed up on Sabaody.
> They disappeared under the radar and reappeared in Dressrosa for a literal day and defeated Doffy. Fujitora let them go afterwards.
> They went under the radar again between Zou and WCI, then reappeared in Wano where they successfully had Luffy killed. Unfortunately, him dying triggered the awakening of his fruit.
Luffy was saved by a bunch of coincedences/fate. IMU admitted as much.
Hating Luffy because of Nika has nothing to do with the writing of the reveal! He fights like a fucking dumbass and that's annoying.
That's a completely different argument to which arc had worse copouts and the 4th Ninja War literally takes the award for that. No matter how annoying G5 turned out to be as a final transformation.
I'm not a fan of Nika either, but Oda ties in his worldbuilding well enough compared to the shit Kishimoto pulled with Black Zetsu and Kaguya.
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None of that is precedent.
- The hagoromo scarf look was done by Enel beforehand. Copying a look doesn’t somehow justify being that thing. Might as well say the gum fruit was actually a steam engine one because of Gear 2.
- All fruits do weird things. Giraffes don’t turn into cubes, for example. This is probably the worst justification the defenders ever use.
The Tankman point is just the same thing too.
I didn’t say that the Black Zetsu crap wasn’t bullshit, it’s just that the Nika one is worse on every level.
The fruit now somehow had a mind of its own and evaded the WG for 800 years. The Shanks Figarland nonsense was now roped into it too, and to sum it all up the awakening came due to a bonk to the head instead of conscious choice.
Even if you think the mechanics of both twists are bullshit, Nika is far more detrimental to the story because of how it impacts the main character himself.
As I said before, no one (or at least most fans) came out of the Great Ninja War hating Naruto himself. Many now dislike or even hate Luffy due to Nika.
- The hagoromo scarf look was done by Enel beforehand. Copying a look doesn’t somehow justify being that thing. Might as well say the gum fruit was actually a steam engine one because of Gear 2.
- All fruits do weird things. Giraffes don’t turn into cubes, for example. This is probably the worst justification the defenders ever use.
The Tankman point is just the same thing too.
I didn’t say that the Black Zetsu crap wasn’t bullshit, it’s just that the Nika one is worse on every level.
The fruit now somehow had a mind of its own and evaded the WG for 800 years. The Shanks Figarland nonsense was now roped into it too, and to sum it all up the awakening came due to a bonk to the head instead of conscious choice.
Even if you think the mechanics of both twists are bullshit, Nika is far more detrimental to the story because of how it impacts the main character himself.
As I said before, no one (or at least most fans) came out of the Great Ninja War hating Naruto himself. Many now dislike or even hate Luffy due to Nika.
Ugh! Couldn’t find the original replies, it’s been over 4 years after all. Guess I’ll just have to respond manually.
> Imu & the Gorosei don’t need to tell anyone the actual reason. Luffy already has plenty of reasons for them to what him dead. They could just use any of those.
> There was plenty of time to catch him pre-skip. Aokiji was waiting on LRL because he knew that was the most likely route for the Strawhats to take. The WG could just have a couple CP0 agents wait and that’s the end right there.
It’s even worse with Water 7 because they knew he was there yet told CP9 to ignore him and only go after Robin. A shigan to the throat from leopard form Lucci in the mansion and it’s all over.
The same goes for even after Ennies Lobby when they knew he’d have to return to Water 7. That’s why Garp went there so Koby & Helmeppo could meet them.
The same goes for Thriller Bark when they knew he’d likely run into Moriah. And again at Sabaody they were fine with just ignoring him until Luffy himself caused trouble. And then with Marineford he was on global TV, so absolutely no excuse.
> There’ve been plenty of closer times as I already mentioned. Closest is probably Akainu at Marineford, but even then there were numerous opportunities throughout. Kizaru kicking him away from the platform when he was alone for example.
> And no, after Marineford Luffy showed up there with Jimbe mere days later to ring the bell, so they knew he was still alive.
A simple “Fishmen Island is going bye bye unless you tell us where Strawhat is” would suffice. Yet they did nothing.
>Dressrosa is the worst because they had CP0 there and Luffy was in a coma for 3 days. Yet again, nothing.
> For WCI, even Big Mom with her comparatively limited resources could find out about Zeff and use that against Sanji. The WG could do that with most of the Strawhats or even the allies they’ve helped to force Luffy to come to them or else.
> For Wano it was the same nonsense as Water 7 where they only went after Robin first, then it was only when it was time for the retcon that they remembered Luffy was a bigger priority.
So none of it makes sense. They killed babies just on the suspicion that they could be offspring of Roger, a mere 25 year old problem. Joyboy is an 800 year problem on the other hand, yet the extent of their action was to ignore him several times even when he was practically laid up on a platter. It is plain abject stupidity. That’s the sort of problem you encounter trying to retcon something so fundamental as the MC’s power over 1,000 chapters into the story.
> Imu & the Gorosei don’t need to tell anyone the actual reason. Luffy already has plenty of reasons for them to what him dead. They could just use any of those.
> There was plenty of time to catch him pre-skip. Aokiji was waiting on LRL because he knew that was the most likely route for the Strawhats to take. The WG could just have a couple CP0 agents wait and that’s the end right there.
It’s even worse with Water 7 because they knew he was there yet told CP9 to ignore him and only go after Robin. A shigan to the throat from leopard form Lucci in the mansion and it’s all over.
The same goes for even after Ennies Lobby when they knew he’d have to return to Water 7. That’s why Garp went there so Koby & Helmeppo could meet them.
The same goes for Thriller Bark when they knew he’d likely run into Moriah. And again at Sabaody they were fine with just ignoring him until Luffy himself caused trouble. And then with Marineford he was on global TV, so absolutely no excuse.
> There’ve been plenty of closer times as I already mentioned. Closest is probably Akainu at Marineford, but even then there were numerous opportunities throughout. Kizaru kicking him away from the platform when he was alone for example.
> And no, after Marineford Luffy showed up there with Jimbe mere days later to ring the bell, so they knew he was still alive.
A simple “Fishmen Island is going bye bye unless you tell us where Strawhat is” would suffice. Yet they did nothing.
>Dressrosa is the worst because they had CP0 there and Luffy was in a coma for 3 days. Yet again, nothing.
> For WCI, even Big Mom with her comparatively limited resources could find out about Zeff and use that against Sanji. The WG could do that with most of the Strawhats or even the allies they’ve helped to force Luffy to come to them or else.
> For Wano it was the same nonsense as Water 7 where they only went after Robin first, then it was only when it was time for the retcon that they remembered Luffy was a bigger priority.
So none of it makes sense. They killed babies just on the suspicion that they could be offspring of Roger, a mere 25 year old problem. Joyboy is an 800 year problem on the other hand, yet the extent of their action was to ignore him several times even when he was practically laid up on a platter. It is plain abject stupidity. That’s the sort of problem you encounter trying to retcon something so fundamental as the MC’s power over 1,000 chapters into the story.
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