Future Events Can Luffy become pirate king without being Top 1 in the verse?

#1
Grandine review makes a case for Luffy not being top of the verse in strength at series end.

His main point is that Luffy's dream is to be "the freest man" who Luffy thinks is pirate king. And so Grandine has made a point to show that you can be free without being the strongest in the verse.

For example Luffy along with all of Dressrosa achieved freedom from Doffy without any single person being stronger than Doffy. In fact it was written into the themes of the story. Riku Dold is called a bad king by Doffy because his country was weak. Then the story says Doffy is wrong. Riku Dold was a good king because his country was free, DESPITE BEING WEAK.

It's literally written into the story that you can be Free while not being the strongest. At least in Dressrosa's case.

You can extrapolate this to WCI and Wano where Luffy is freer than Katakuri who is bound to his lies of being perfect and yet Katakuri is stronger than Luffy. So how come Katakuri's strength didn't give him Luffy's freedom? Then in Wano, the supremely powerful Oden, failed to give his country freedom despite almost assuredly being the strongest person in the country, even stronger than his enemies. And now Kaido is even stronger than before, and Kaido teamed up with Big mom, and then he has 30000 men, but Luffy will win. Luffy will win and attain freedom, while being weaker than Kaido.

So back to the question, Can luffy become pirate king without being top 1 in the verse?

A lot of people complain that Luffy no longer has clean wins and is no longer definitively proven to be stronger than the people he beats but you have to ask yourself, is that maybe not the Point? Is it possible that that's the point?

Like with Dressrosa, it was actually the point that strength doesn't just create freedom. So is Oda intentionally making Luffy's wins vague?

Let's try another argument.

Luffy has himself said that he needs strength to protect his loved ones. Both in Ennies Lobby and Marineford. So doesn't that mean he wants to be top 1 since that's the 100% guarantee of protecting said loved ones?

Well then how come Thriller bark exists? Thriller bark was about the value of crew mates. Moriah was obsessed with undead crew mates because he feels having living crew mates is a waste of time since they are weaker than you and ultimately can die faster than you. Moriah's philosophy is you shouldn't sail around with people weaker than that can die and leave you feeling regret over bringing along weaker people to dangerous places.

Luffy of course sees his crew as vital since they posses skills he doesn't have so it's fine if they are weaker than him as long as he can just protect them. But then Kuma showed up. And it got reversed. The crew protected luffy. And luffy DOES NOT KNOW TO THIS DAY.

Literally one arc, after luffy declares to Blueno that he's striving to get strong to protect his crew, he immediately fails at this when Kuma arrives and it's entirely reversed, the crew saves him. Not only do they carry as much resolve and will to protect him as much as he wants to protect them, one of them even manages to prove he can take the entire PHYSICAL burden of Luffy as well. And to this day, Luffy has no idea that this happened.

So this goes to show that at some point, luffy just has to trust that his crew is strong enough to handle itself. Like for instance Luffy can say he wants to be top 1 as you'd say Luffy was Top 1 in thriller bark after beating Moriah but then the world can throw a curveball like Kuma at you where Luffy being top 1 never mattered. Luffy was knocked out and his crew had to save him.

Once again we are back to a situation where seemingly, Luffy's goal to be stronger to protect his crew doesn't necessarily mean he has to be the strongest, he just has to be strong enough that the trust he puts in the strength of his crew can balance out the rest.

Luffy just had to be strong enough to beat Katakuri (not that he was stronger than Katakuri, he just had to be strong enough to win under the very unique conditions of the fight) and then trust his crew's strength to somehow evade Big mom and her entire fleet on their own. And it worked out. Luffy was just strong enough to win, and the trust in his crew's strength was enough for them to actually make it out.

In conclusion, as it stands, you can make arguments for Luffy being top 1 in the verse such as Roger parallels or Battle Shonen mechanics but they can also be argued against. What I think is very hard to argue against is themes. Like the themes of Dressrosa and Thriller bark and others that very easily put into question this notion that Luffy's dreams or goals or entire story progression is leading up to him being Top. 1 in the verse.

To answer the titular question, Luffy can be pirate king without being top 1, IF ODA WANTS THAT.

So you wonder whether that's appropiate? Is it appropiate for the story and character progression for this to be the outcome? Is it appropriate for Luffy's dreams of being the freest man to be Free despite not being the physical dominator of the verse? Is it appropriate for Luffy's goal to protect his crew that he makes sure he's the apex of all fighting power and trust in his crew's own strength comes second to him ascending to god tier?
 
#3
Let's suppose he manage to steal the road poneglyphs from Kaido and BM without having to beat them, Robin then reads them and pinpoints Raftel location, at that point supposing there are no other barriers.. Luffy can find the OP and become pirate king. The point is that after that Kaido, BM and BB will swarm after him like Crazy and if he is not strong enough he will simply be killed and give the title to the killer. Then of course this is a shounen and something like that will never happen.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#5
You can be pirate king without beating anyone. Roger did it.
Its just a journey.
Roger stole a copy from meme begged his rival for his crew member and everything else fell in his lap beating no one on the way.
So yes luffy can and will be pirate king without being top 1. Whether or not hes top one after that when the final war happens is up to oda.
 
#6
Luffy doesn't need to be stronger than others to become the pirate king, he just needs to win each time he faces the people who oppose him. There are things outside of strength that influence the outcome of a fight: Luck, "Fate", Plot, etc...
 
#7
Let's suppose he manage to steal the road poneglyphs from Kaido and BM without having to beat them
But I said Luffy will win in Wano. Oden who was arguably stronger than Kaido failed.

But Luffy who is definitely weaker than Kaido will win.

Luffy will beat both Kaido and Big mom WITHOUT being stronger than either of them. Because we've seen him beat people he was weaker than
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#8
Does the Pirate King need to be top 1? No. But is that a part of what Luffy would like out of it? Probably. Luffy's journey is very different from Roger's. Roger was fighting against the unknown in order to become Pirate King. For Luffy, the road towards it is pretty clear. It's only the reward that is a mystery. But in exchange, there are tons of characters vying for the same thing as Luffy, or preventing him from accomplishing what he wants, which make them obstacles he'll eventually have to confront, and he is very open to doing so. But Luffy doesn't just see them as hindrances, he sees them as opportunity to grow and cement superiority. Luffy's big proclamation before saying he'd become Pirate King was that he'd surpass Shanks and his crew. Luffy's always been a competitive individual. As a child, he's always wanted to be better than Ace and Sabo, wanting them to be his crewmates with him as the captain.

Issho warned him about making the emperors and marines his enemies, but Luffy scoffed at that and told him he'd fight every last one of them.

Even when provided an alternative to battling Kaido for the Poneglyph, Luffy didn't like the idea. Suggesting he wants to fight Kaido for it. During his bout with Katakuri, Luffy showed desire in surpassing a top commander in battle. Even though he could've run away. there was no viable reason to go back to the mirror world, he stayed for a chance to grow.

In short, becoming top 1 is a consequence of how Luffy wants to become Pirate King, possibly.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#9
Does the Pirate King need to be top 1? No. But is that a part of what Luffy would like out of it? Probably. Luffy's journey is very different from Roger's. Roger was fighting against the unknown in order to become Pirate King. For Luffy, the road towards it is pretty clear. It's only the reward that is a mystery. But in exchange, there are tons of characters vying for the same thing as Luffy, or preventing him from accomplishing what he wants, which make them obstacles he'll eventually have to confront, and he is very open to doing so. But Luffy doesn't just see them as hindrances, he sees them as opportunity to grow and cement superiority. Luffy's big proclamation before saying he'd become Pirate King was that he'd surpass Shanks and his crew. Luffy's always been a competitive individual. As a child, he's always wanted to be better than Ace and Sabo, wanting them to be his crewmates with him as the captain.

Issho warned him about making the emperors and marines his enemies, but Luffy scoffed at that and told him he'd fight every last one of them.

Even when provided an alternative to battling Kaido for the Poneglyph, Luffy didn't like the idea. Suggesting he wants to fight Kaido for it. During his bout with Katakuri, Luffy showed desire in surpassing a top commander in battle. Even though he could've run away. there was no viable reason to go back to the mirror world, he stayed for a chance to grow.

In short, becoming top 1 is a consequence of how Luffy wants to become Pirate King, possibly.
Few things.
When the same situation came up in wci as it did in wano he ran from big mom and stole the rp (not even mentioning he ran from fuji in the first place)
The last info we got heavily implies he will be pirate king BEFORE the final war. I dont see luffy going into the final war as top 1 imo.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#10
Few things.
When the same situation came up in wci as it did in wano he ran from big mom and stole the rp (not even mentioning he ran from fuji in the first place)
The last info we got heavily implies he will be pirate king BEFORE the final war. I dont see luffy going into the final war as top 1 imo.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think he'll be the strongest then either. It's probably just a mindset he has going into becoming Pirate King, is what I meant. When he reaches Laugh Tale, I don't see him refusing just because he's only the 9th strongest person on the planet, or something.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#11
Don't get me wrong. I don't think he'll be the strongest then either. It's probably just a mindset he has going into becoming Pirate King, is what I meant. When he reaches Laugh Tale, I don't see him refusing just because he's only the 9th strongest person on the planet, or something.
The way i look at it reaching raftel and finding the op is part one of luffys dream. Thats when he learns about the void century the wg and all the 800 year old tyranny they have done over the world and he realises he can never truly be free until they are beaten.
 

KiriNigiri

The Road To Harmony
#12
The way i look at it reaching raftel and finding the op is part one of luffys dream. Thats when he learns about the void century the wg and all the 800 year old tyranny they have done over the world and he realises he can never truly be free until they are beaten.
The WG were the ones to name Roger Pirate King after finding Laugh Tale. This might need for me to reread the whole series, but I don't think Luffy ever said he'd be Pirate King as a result of finding Laugh Tale. I could be wrong, but I think Luffy almost always says he'll be Pirate King after having conquered someone in battle, or expressing the desire to. Meaning his whole definition of it is completely opposed to the one the Government printed. The Roger Pirates even say they were too early to finish what they started. Maybe Roger never considered himself Pirate King due to that. He and Luffy did say the same things, according to Shanks.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#13
The WG were the ones to name Roger Pirate King after finding Laugh Tale. This might need for me to reread the whole series, but I don't think Luffy ever said he'd be Pirate King as a result of finding Laugh Tale. I could be wrong, but I think Luffy almost always says he'll be Pirate King after having conquered someone in battle. Meaning his whole definition of it is completely opposed to the one the Government suggested. The Roger Pirates even say they were too early to finish what they started. Maybe Roger never considered himself Pirate King due to that. He and Luffy did say the same things, according to Shanks.
Thats what i mean to the outside world he will be pirate king once he goes to raftel and he will be pirate king then but to luffy himself being pirate king is total freedom which even roger didnt achieve and will only be done once the wg is overthrown.
 
#14
You can be pirate king without beating anyone. Roger did it.
Its just a journey.
Roger stole a copy from meme begged his rival for his crew member and everything else fell in his lap beating no one on the way.
So yes luffy can and will be pirate king without being top 1. Whether or not hes top one after that when the final war happens is up to oda.
Roger beat everyone at God Valley, and Whitebeard was the only person that could equal him in battle. Roger was top 1, so stop spreading BS.
 
S

Shuyaku

#15
Yup, you often see the "by shonen logic Luffy will be the strongest" argument thrown around when, ironically, in some of the biggest shonen out there at least, the protagonist is not the undisputed number one at all. And it's been made clear you don't need absolute strength to become PK in OP.

That said, i expect Luffy to reach Roger's level at a bare minimum, unless we're introduced to some crazy power inflation, he should still be top 5.
 

HA001

World's Strongest Swordsman
#19
You shut stfu, it was stated Roger and Garp beat the Rocks Pirates with manga panels to support what I said. Zoro fanboys like you are the reason why One Piece is losing steam, it because you deny what Oda stated and puts in his manga.
You dont know who fought who you pleb or if wb switched sides.

And god valley was years before his final voyage to be king when he beat no one.
 
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