Chapter Discussion Is Killer underrated?
- Thread starter T.D.A
- Start date
Keep the copium doses low. 
Zoro is that much stronger, it was always obvious.
He literally was looking like 3rd class combatant compared to Zoro when he couldnt pull his weapon out of injured Zoro.
Zoro is that much stronger, it was always obvious.
He literally was looking like 3rd class combatant compared to Zoro when he couldnt pull his weapon out of injured Zoro.
Good start.
But the rest you are just going off rails. Like some have pointed out, Kid and Killer fought Kaido after Dressrosa several weeks ago.
Kid was bloody in Udon because he was in prison all that time.
Killer on the other hand wasn't in prison and was made Orochi's personal assassin. The bandages like many have already pointed out were to hide his identity
But the rest you are just going off rails. Like some have pointed out, Kid and Killer fought Kaido after Dressrosa several weeks ago.
Kid was bloody in Udon because he was in prison all that time.
Killer on the other hand wasn't in prison and was made Orochi's personal assassin. The bandages like many have already pointed out were to hide his identity
3rd class combatant made him faint while nerfed, out of all the characters y'all can shit on Killer is the last one, sorry for this
Oda literally has shown him being unable to move his weapon, just by Zoro flexing his chest.
That's a huge difference in power we are talking about.
But are you surprised he looked bad against a top tier?
Why don't just leave his mask then, mister? Also who should have recognized him? Wano is an isolated country
If the difference in strenght was that big Zoro would have treated him like Hyouzou, Monet or Pica. Instead he aknowlodged Killer strenght and was sent to sleep by him. And don't bring Guykimaru in, that would only be disrespectful to Zoro
So no, the gap between them is not huge
If the difference in strenght was that big Zoro would have treated him like Hyouzou, Monet or Pica. Instead he aknowlodged Killer strenght and was sent to sleep by him. And don't bring Guykimaru in, that would only be disrespectful to Zoro
So no, the gap between them is not huge
So your answer is 'I don't know, but must be this cause I don't like the other way 
'
I bring you manga and you bring me 'must be this way' alright I'm outta here
Lol imagine going down with a 'no named attack' as you call it then and against a nerfed opponent 
really top tier-like 
'I bring you manga and you bring me 'must be this way' alright I'm outta here
Lmao, it literally is. The moment he used a named attack, Killer went byebye.
Everyone gets the one slice treatment when facing Zoro.
Gap is not huge while Zoro is dwarfing Killer's arm power with his tit? I knew copium would break you lol.
Everyone gets the one slice treatment when facing Zoro.
Gap is not huge while Zoro is dwarfing Killer's arm power with his tit? I knew copium would break you lol.
really top tier-like 
Lol imagine going down with a 'no named attack' as you call it then really top tier-like
really top tier-like
That by itself tells the difference if injured Zoro beating non-injured Killer wasnt clear enough. Copium is not good for you.
lol, you are literally proving my arguments right. Imagine the only reason why you are able to land an attack on Zoro is a fox.
That by itself tells the difference if injured Zoro beating non-injured Killer wasnt clear enough. Copium is not good for you.
That by itself tells the difference if injured Zoro beating non-injured Killer wasnt clear enough. Copium is not good for you.
You were hoping for Zoro to be the only one with the captains on the roof but Killer is there and that's hurting you, but there's no reason for that. It's not Zoro's descent, it's Killer's rise
:cheers:
lmao that bs of killer is injured and he is mentally broken and and to downplay Zoro massacring him here
Arguments
Killer was Mentally Hindered
Killer as Kamazou was mentally broken due to his defeat and being forced to fight against his will. He was not able to deploy his full combat abilities when he encountered Zoro. Becoming a pleasure further encumbered his mental capacities as he could not stop his incessant laughter:
He was shown to hate laughter to the extent that he wore a mask to hide his face and he would beat people to within an inch of their lives for seeing his laughter:
Killer may even have been tortured by Orochi given all the bandages we saw him wearing in battle.
I do not find this argument in the slightest bit credible. Killer appeared completely lucid and in his right senses during his battle with Zoro. He recognised Zoro as the wanted criminal Zorojuro and interrogated him and Hiyori on why they were protecting Otama:
He chastised Hiyori for referring to Orochi by name:
He engaged in pre fight banter with Zoro:
He was able to tell that Zoro wasn't taking their confrontation seriously:
Kamazou appeared to be in full possession of his mental faculties during the fight and did not give me any reason to believe he was in anyway hindered. He did not come across as a broken man who was unable to deploy his full abilities. If the laugh is the reason for his mental inhibition, then that would mean current Killer is still nerfed, after all he still laughs incessantly (and there doesn't really appear to be any indication that this would change soon either):
Besides, the SMILE does not encumber its victims apart from denying them the ability to swim and granting incessant laughter:
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured, this has very little to back it up. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:
Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:
Killer was Orochi's assassin:
It doesn't make much sense that Orochi would have deliberately neutered the effectiveness of his tool. That Killer was fighting to save Kidd suggest that his willpower and determination should have been at its maximum. Suggesting that Killer was in anyway mentally broken is frankly an insult to his character and stature as a supernova. I think his tears at the beginning of Udon was ultimately from failing at the task Orochi assigned him and thus being unable to rescue Kidd or being the result of Kidd's (re)capture. His tears could have also been tears of joy due to his reunion. Whatever the reason is, it seems it wasn't due to a mental breakdown as a result of eating the SMILE.
Killer was Denied his Main Weapons
Arguments
- Killer was mentally hindered
- Killer didn't have access to his custom weapons
- Killer is injured
Killer was Mentally Hindered
Killer as Kamazou was mentally broken due to his defeat and being forced to fight against his will. He was not able to deploy his full combat abilities when he encountered Zoro. Becoming a pleasure further encumbered his mental capacities as he could not stop his incessant laughter:
He was shown to hate laughter to the extent that he wore a mask to hide his face and he would beat people to within an inch of their lives for seeing his laughter:
Killer may even have been tortured by Orochi given all the bandages we saw him wearing in battle.
I do not find this argument in the slightest bit credible. Killer appeared completely lucid and in his right senses during his battle with Zoro. He recognised Zoro as the wanted criminal Zorojuro and interrogated him and Hiyori on why they were protecting Otama:
He chastised Hiyori for referring to Orochi by name:
He engaged in pre fight banter with Zoro:
He was able to tell that Zoro wasn't taking their confrontation seriously:
Kamazou appeared to be in full possession of his mental faculties during the fight and did not give me any reason to believe he was in anyway hindered. He did not come across as a broken man who was unable to deploy his full abilities. If the laugh is the reason for his mental inhibition, then that would mean current Killer is still nerfed, after all he still laughs incessantly (and there doesn't really appear to be any indication that this would change soon either):
Besides, the SMILE does not encumber its victims apart from denying them the ability to swim and granting incessant laughter:
As for the argument that Kamazou had been tortured, this has very little to back it up. We see some of the bandages covering his face removed in Udon, and the skin underneath is relatively unmarked:
Killer's torture is presumed to have been by Orochi, but it was revealed in the latest chapter that Killer took the SMILE voluntarily to gain the chance to save his captain:
Killer was Orochi's assassin:
It doesn't make much sense that Orochi would have deliberately neutered the effectiveness of his tool. That Killer was fighting to save Kidd suggest that his willpower and determination should have been at its maximum. Suggesting that Killer was in anyway mentally broken is frankly an insult to his character and stature as a supernova. I think his tears at the beginning of Udon was ultimately from failing at the task Orochi assigned him and thus being unable to rescue Kidd or being the result of Kidd's (re)capture. His tears could have also been tears of joy due to his reunion. Whatever the reason is, it seems it wasn't due to a mental breakdown as a result of eating the SMILE.
Killer was Denied his Main Weapons
Another popular argument (and the one I find to be the most credible) that Killer was nerfed while he fought as Kamazou was that he was denied access to his signature mechanical sickles. Killer was not using his main weapons and so he was not able to perform to the fullest of his abilities. WIthout his mechanical sickles, he may have lost access to his fighting style.
I think this is more a plausible argument than claiming Killer was mentally hindered, but I am not fully on board with it.
Killer was capable of effectively replicating his acrobatic combat style that he normally uses with his mechanical sickles through his scythes:
He was clashing quite comfortably with Zoro and displayed high proficiency in the use of the mechanical sickles:
Within seconds of seizing one of the scythes (a weapon that is most decidedly not a sword) Zoro was able to adapt and improvise one of his signature Santoryu techniques:
Killer has had the scythes for several days (possibly even weeks), and the scythes are much closer to his mechanical ones than they are to a sword. If Zoro can adapt within seconds, Killer should already be highly proficient given the much longer timespan he had to get used to it (from his performance against Zoro, I would say that this is the case).
Some people have compared Zoro with Killer using the scythes to Zoro adapting to random swords. I guess it's a fair comparison. Here's how Zoro performed against Hacchi (again, within mere seconds) of receiving random swords:
He was able to replicate three of his santoryu techniques (Toro Nagashi, Onigiri and Tatsumaki) and completely outskilled Hatchan in CQC. Was this Zoro (who only had a few seconds to get used to his swords) noticeably weaker than a Zoro with swords he was accustomed to? Perhaps, but if he was weaker at all, it wouldn't have been by a large amount.
On another occasion, Zoro stole random swords from the Sakura kingdom and easily disposed of his assailants (again with no indication that his combat ability had significantly declined):
But people stress that Zoro was weaker because he was missing Shusui! Yes this is true, but this is not because Zoro was merely missing a sword that he was accustomed to, but because Zoro had lost access to his signature Santoryu style. He mentioned that he doesn't feel right without a third sword and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma:
Shusui is also not an ordinary sword. It is an O Wazamono (one of only 21 in the world) and a black blade (one of only two to be shown in the series) that boasts of hardness and is "much heavier" than normal:
The slashes produced by Shusui are much stronger than the slashes produced by Sandai Kitetsu and Wado Ichimonji, to the extent that it swallowed up the other two:
Shusui's absence is different from the other swords, because it is in a sense special and directly boosted Zoro's attack power. Because of these tangible benefits that Shusui provides Zoro, losing Shusui would be a significant reduction in Zoro's combat ability.
Before Zoro acquired Shusui, I don't think the particular sword Zoro used was that influential on his combat ability. In general, it usually takes Zoro a while to get accustomed to new Meitou (of the five Meitou we've seen him weild, he mentioned having to get accustomed to 3 of them (Sandai Kitetsu, Shusui and Enma):
But this seems to only apply to Meitou. He's able to instantly wield nameless blades to great effectiveness. He's never mentioned having any difficulty using those swords, and he has had to change blades many times due to his blades being broken.
Santoryu Zoro with three random swords would be weaker than Santoryu Zoro with Wado Ichimonji, Shusui and Sandai Kitetsu, but the difference would not be all that large (I think it would be at least a lower high difficulty fight). Mihawk said that with haki, any blade can become a black blade (what Shusui is):
Whatever (probably not that large) gap there was in Zoro's ability dependent on his blades preskip, it has substantially shrunk postskip.
The ability of the wielder is more important than the blade itself (and overwhelmingly so it appears).
On top of the loss of his strongest weapon, Zoro also lost access to his strongest fighting style (Santoryu), and I think that was the main cause of the drop in his combat ability.
Killer seems to have retained his fighting style, but he did not have access to his preferred weapons. Might Killer's mechanical sickles fulfill a role similar to Shusui? I think that is plausible, but it hasn't really been demonstrated in the manga. If we are shown that Killer's mechanical sickles boost his combat stats, then I would update towards Kamazou having been significantly weaker. As of now, it is unknown to what extent the mechanical sickles add on to his abilities. In a later section, I would cover some reasons to be sceptical of a big gap between the mechanical sickles and the scythes.
The Argument
Reasons for Skepticism
I think this is more a plausible argument than claiming Killer was mentally hindered, but I am not fully on board with it.
Killer was capable of effectively replicating his acrobatic combat style that he normally uses with his mechanical sickles through his scythes:
Rotating to attack Hiyori and Tama:
Backflipping away from Zoro.
Jumping around the place while trying to find an opening to attack Zoro from:
Backflipping to fall back:
Backflipping away from Zoro.
Jumping around the place while trying to find an opening to attack Zoro from:
Backflipping to fall back:
He was clashing quite comfortably with Zoro and displayed high proficiency in the use of the mechanical sickles:
Within seconds of seizing one of the scythes (a weapon that is most decidedly not a sword) Zoro was able to adapt and improvise one of his signature Santoryu techniques:
Killer has had the scythes for several days (possibly even weeks), and the scythes are much closer to his mechanical ones than they are to a sword. If Zoro can adapt within seconds, Killer should already be highly proficient given the much longer timespan he had to get used to it (from his performance against Zoro, I would say that this is the case).
Some people have compared Zoro with Killer using the scythes to Zoro adapting to random swords. I guess it's a fair comparison. Here's how Zoro performed against Hacchi (again, within mere seconds) of receiving random swords:
He was able to replicate three of his santoryu techniques (Toro Nagashi, Onigiri and Tatsumaki) and completely outskilled Hatchan in CQC. Was this Zoro (who only had a few seconds to get used to his swords) noticeably weaker than a Zoro with swords he was accustomed to? Perhaps, but if he was weaker at all, it wouldn't have been by a large amount.
On another occasion, Zoro stole random swords from the Sakura kingdom and easily disposed of his assailants (again with no indication that his combat ability had significantly declined):
But people stress that Zoro was weaker because he was missing Shusui! Yes this is true, but this is not because Zoro was merely missing a sword that he was accustomed to, but because Zoro had lost access to his signature Santoryu style. He mentioned that he doesn't feel right without a third sword and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma:
Shusui is also not an ordinary sword. It is an O Wazamono (one of only 21 in the world) and a black blade (one of only two to be shown in the series) that boasts of hardness and is "much heavier" than normal:
The slashes produced by Shusui are much stronger than the slashes produced by Sandai Kitetsu and Wado Ichimonji, to the extent that it swallowed up the other two:
Shusui's absence is different from the other swords, because it is in a sense special and directly boosted Zoro's attack power. Because of these tangible benefits that Shusui provides Zoro, losing Shusui would be a significant reduction in Zoro's combat ability.
Before Zoro acquired Shusui, I don't think the particular sword Zoro used was that influential on his combat ability. In general, it usually takes Zoro a while to get accustomed to new Meitou (of the five Meitou we've seen him weild, he mentioned having to get accustomed to 3 of them (Sandai Kitetsu, Shusui and Enma):
But this seems to only apply to Meitou. He's able to instantly wield nameless blades to great effectiveness. He's never mentioned having any difficulty using those swords, and he has had to change blades many times due to his blades being broken.
Santoryu Zoro with three random swords would be weaker than Santoryu Zoro with Wado Ichimonji, Shusui and Sandai Kitetsu, but the difference would not be all that large (I think it would be at least a lower high difficulty fight). Mihawk said that with haki, any blade can become a black blade (what Shusui is):
Whatever (probably not that large) gap there was in Zoro's ability dependent on his blades preskip, it has substantially shrunk postskip.
The ability of the wielder is more important than the blade itself (and overwhelmingly so it appears).
On top of the loss of his strongest weapon, Zoro also lost access to his strongest fighting style (Santoryu), and I think that was the main cause of the drop in his combat ability.
Killer seems to have retained his fighting style, but he did not have access to his preferred weapons. Might Killer's mechanical sickles fulfill a role similar to Shusui? I think that is plausible, but it hasn't really been demonstrated in the manga. If we are shown that Killer's mechanical sickles boost his combat stats, then I would update towards Kamazou having been significantly weaker. As of now, it is unknown to what extent the mechanical sickles add on to his abilities. In a later section, I would cover some reasons to be sceptical of a big gap between the mechanical sickles and the scythes.
An Examination of the Weapons Argument
The Argument
The argument goes that Killer was using weapons that are very different in shape and form to his usual weapons. Compare his mechanical sickles:
To the scythes he wielded as Kamazou:
The shape, reach, and other pertinent characteristics of the weapons are very different. In my initial post I compared Killer switching his mechanical sickles for the scythes can be compared to Zoro switching his usual katana for three random swords, but it was brought to my attention that a more apt analogy would be Zoro switching his three katana for three spears or three axes. In such a situation, we would all likely agree that Zoro's combat abilities were severely limited. @Garp the Fist made a comparison to how Zoro was severely hindered at the Davy Back fight when he had to fight without his swords and was limited to Mutoryu.
Do you guys agree that the above is an accurate representation of your argument? It's important that we are discussing the same argument. If you feel I have accurately represented the argument, then you can proceed (if not, let me know in a below reply and I'll update this section to incorporate your feedback).
To the scythes he wielded as Kamazou:
The shape, reach, and other pertinent characteristics of the weapons are very different. In my initial post I compared Killer switching his mechanical sickles for the scythes can be compared to Zoro switching his usual katana for three random swords, but it was brought to my attention that a more apt analogy would be Zoro switching his three katana for three spears or three axes. In such a situation, we would all likely agree that Zoro's combat abilities were severely limited. @Garp the Fist made a comparison to how Zoro was severely hindered at the Davy Back fight when he had to fight without his swords and was limited to Mutoryu.
Do you guys agree that the above is an accurate representation of your argument? It's important that we are discussing the same argument. If you feel I have accurately represented the argument, then you can proceed (if not, let me know in a below reply and I'll update this section to incorporate your feedback).
Reasons for Skepticism
The argument presented above sounds prima facie reasonable and seems appealing. After all, someone forced to use a fighting style they are completely unused to would be unable to demonstrate anywhere near the fullness of their combat abilities, and there are substantial differences between the weapons Killer used. It is because of this prima facie case that I find this argument to be credible. However on closer examination, the argument doesn't hold up as well as I initially thought. We can treat the argument as an hypothesis (one that would purportedly explain Killer's performance in his duel with Zoro). Good hypotheses should make testable predictions. What predictions would this hypothesis have made? Or, what would you expect if this argument was true?
Well, a general (without contextualising to the world of One Piece) prediction would be that Killer would perform substantially worse with the scythes than his mechanical sickles. Since the Kamazou duel, we haven't really had the chance to see Killer have full fledged encounters with his sickles so we can't evaluate this very well. Fortunately, because this is One Piece, there are other things one would expect:
Killer Would Have Demonstrated Difficulty or Unease in Using His New Weapons
Well, a general (without contextualising to the world of One Piece) prediction would be that Killer would perform substantially worse with the scythes than his mechanical sickles. Since the Kamazou duel, we haven't really had the chance to see Killer have full fledged encounters with his sickles so we can't evaluate this very well. Fortunately, because this is One Piece, there are other things one would expect:
- Killer would have demonstrated difficulty or unease in using his new weapons.
- We would have been told that Killer's combat ability was not at its best.
Killer Would Have Demonstrated Difficulty or Unease in Using His New Weapons
This is simply based on the common sense reasoning that if Killer was indeed unskilled with his new weapons, there would be some indication of it. He would not be able to perform very adeptly with his new weapons. Let's make the comparison to Zoro using three spears or three scythes, he'd be able to fight somewhat, but his attacks would not be as skillful and he wouldn't be as adept in close quarters combat as if he was using three katana.
I think this is clearly not true for Killer. Killer was able to have a long and extended CQC clash with Zoro:
After Zoro started taking the fight seriously, the confrontation was largely off paneled and significant amounts of time is implied to have elapsed:
To get back to the Zoro with spears analogy, no, a Zoro with spears could not keep up with Kyoshiro, neither could a Zoro with axes, and definitely not a no sword Zoro. If Zoro was forced to have an extended CQC encounter with weapons he was so unfamiliar with, he wouldn't be able to perform anywhere near as good as what Killer demonstrated. Furthermore, his unfamiliarity and unskillfulness with the weapons would have been highlighted.
Not only is there no visible indication that Killer was unfamiliar with, unskilled in the use of, or otherwise unable to deploy the fullness of his abilities through the scythes, Killer actually performed very well with them. If before the entire Kamazou encounter I was told Killer fought on par with Nitoryu Zoro, I wouldn't have been surprised. That's better portrayal than what Hawkins received:
Hawkins is a supernova captain and one that has been hyped above some of the other supernova (including Killer):
There's not really much reason to place Hawkins below Killer, let alone so far below him that a significantly restrained Killer is superior to Hawkins.
I don't really expect Killer to perform significantly better than the level indicated by someone who can keep up with Kyoshiro in CQC. Yes, Zoro did eventually oneshot Killer, but the manner in which that happened had nothing to do with Killer's weapons. His mechanical sickles wouldn't have raised his endurance or enable him land his counterattack before Zoro, nor would it have let him react faster to Zoro's Rengoku Onigiri (in short, Killer's mechanical scythes wouldn't have prevented Zoro from blitzing and oneshotting him). Or in other words, the reasons for Killer's eventual defeat had nothing to do with the weapons he used and everything to do with Zoro gaining a third sword. Oda is insistent on depicting three sword Zoro as being of a higher caliber than two sword Zoro:
I think this is clearly not true for Killer. Killer was able to have a long and extended CQC clash with Zoro:
After Zoro started taking the fight seriously, the confrontation was largely off paneled and significant amounts of time is implied to have elapsed:
To get back to the Zoro with spears analogy, no, a Zoro with spears could not keep up with Kyoshiro, neither could a Zoro with axes, and definitely not a no sword Zoro. If Zoro was forced to have an extended CQC encounter with weapons he was so unfamiliar with, he wouldn't be able to perform anywhere near as good as what Killer demonstrated. Furthermore, his unfamiliarity and unskillfulness with the weapons would have been highlighted.
Not only is there no visible indication that Killer was unfamiliar with, unskilled in the use of, or otherwise unable to deploy the fullness of his abilities through the scythes, Killer actually performed very well with them. If before the entire Kamazou encounter I was told Killer fought on par with Nitoryu Zoro, I wouldn't have been surprised. That's better portrayal than what Hawkins received:
Hawkins is a supernova captain and one that has been hyped above some of the other supernova (including Killer):
There's not really much reason to place Hawkins below Killer, let alone so far below him that a significantly restrained Killer is superior to Hawkins.
I don't really expect Killer to perform significantly better than the level indicated by someone who can keep up with Kyoshiro in CQC. Yes, Zoro did eventually oneshot Killer, but the manner in which that happened had nothing to do with Killer's weapons. His mechanical sickles wouldn't have raised his endurance or enable him land his counterattack before Zoro, nor would it have let him react faster to Zoro's Rengoku Onigiri (in short, Killer's mechanical scythes wouldn't have prevented Zoro from blitzing and oneshotting him). Or in other words, the reasons for Killer's eventual defeat had nothing to do with the weapons he used and everything to do with Zoro gaining a third sword. Oda is insistent on depicting three sword Zoro as being of a higher caliber than two sword Zoro:
We Would Have Been Told That Killer's Combat Ability was Not at Its Best
[/spoiler]
At this point, "Killer's combat ability was reduced because he was lacking his main weapons" is nothing but headcanon, and it isn't just headcanon, it's headcanon that is heavily contradicted by the manga.
Reiterating how appealing the headcanon is from your priors does not get around the fact that the manga doesn't back the headcanon up and flat out contradicts it.
and i will support this with a single panel destroying all this shit and oda showed it sanji was blackmailed by big mom if he didn't get married to her daughter Zeff would die and he had to leave the crew forever and you know what luffy came to bring him out but sanji didn't want that because he was blackmailed by them to protect zeff and his crew themself so he worked under big mom / his father and fought luffy on panel and tried the best of his ability and he said this shit on panel and him and after that he appeared crying the same shit killer did he got blackmailed to protect his crew he tried his best to do that and he cried after that and oda highlighted Killer and Kid will and if someone like killer couldn't do something sanji did he can get the fk out of supernovas and have sanji replacing him then .
This is based on the fact that when characters have their combat ability significantly hindered, we are often told so. This is I think the stronger rebuttal for me. The previous counterargument relies on the belief that we shouldn't expect Killer to be substantially stronger than Hawkins or be able to keep up with YC 3/2s while significantly restrained. I think that is a very sensible belief, but it does rely on headcanon powerscaling and it wouldn't be convincing to people who disagree with the headcanon powerscaling (as sensible as it may be). This counterargument is much more objective. The prior likelihood of Oda indicating in some form or another that someone has been significantly weakened is very high.
Specific Examples
How many instances do we have of characters being significantly hindered (combat ability wise) and Oda not having inidicated or mentioned it in some form (either by the character, by spectators or by their opponents)? The only one that comes to mind as a potential counterexample is Charlotte Linlin, but I didn't pay attention to WCI (so it may have been brought up, and it's not clear how much of it is her truly being weakened and how much of it is Oda clowning on her, gag scenes, plot induced stupidity or plot conveniences). At any rate Oda has been sufficiently poor in his handling Big Mom that I usually refrain from powerscaling her.
For those who believe there hasn't been opportunities to do this, here are some examples of how Killer been weakened due to lacking his main weapons could have been mentioned:
At this point you get the idea. Oda had opportunities to let us know that Killer was significantly weakened. Ample opportunity (and he could have invented more if needed, he's the author!), and he did not tell us so (in constrast we've already been told that Zoro is not at his best when he lacks three swords). If Killer was weakened, this would be incredibly surprising. When characters are significantly weakened, Oda goes out of his way to tell us so. There was no need to tell us that:
I could go on, but you get the point. Even when he really does not need to, Oda goes out of his way to tell us that characters have been significantly weakened. Characters being weakened and Oda not telling us is very rare (barring the dubious Linlin example I mentioned earlier, I am not aware of any other instances). Our prior probability that a character would have been significantly weakened and Oda would show zero indication of it should be very low.
Specific Examples
Here are some examples to demonstrate it:
Zoro vs Cabaji
Buggy had previously stabbed Zoro, and the wounds he received had been hindering him. He went on to stab himself to further restrain his combat ability. Cabaji commented that his wounds were grievous and would be an acceptable excuse to explain Zoro's loss.
Zoro vs the Nyaban Brothers
Zoro only had one sword at the time and this severely hindered his combat ability. He repeatedly wished he had more swords, and when he finally recovered his remaining two swords, he hyped up the power of his Santoryu style.
Zoro at Arlong Park
Zoro was very weakened due to the damage he took from Mihawk. He's shown sweating profusely and short of breath, and ends up falling down a few times during his battle with Hachi. That he has a fever is mentioned several times and we are outright told that the his wounds were too deep and would have killed normal people or at least crippled them for half a year. Arlong questions how he can even stand.
Zoro at the Davy Back Fight
Zoro didn't have access to his swords. Sanji commented that a swordsman without his swords was "pathetic". If an analogy is to be made between Killer with scythes and Zoro without his swords, then something like the above is what I would expect.
Strawhats at Water Seven
The Strawhats had previously been unable to perform at their best as they were emotionally compromised due to Robin's betrayal. Nami mentioned this and that they were now much stronger because they were fighting to save Robin.
Zoro against Ryuma
Zoro only had two swords. He mentioned that he was uncomfortable without his third sword, and lamented being unable to show it to Ryuma. Ryuma himself expressed the desire to see Zoro's Santoryu and commended him for his strength.
Ryuma vs Zoro
Ryuma was fighting with Brook's shadow, and we are told that he was even stronger in his prime, with Ryuma lamenting his defeat and Zoro offering to pretend the fight never happened.
Zoro at Sabaody
Zoro was still suffering from taking Luffy's pain. That his injuries affected him was noted by other Strawhats, Zoro and even Borsalino.
Whitebeard at Marineford
Whitebeard at Marineford had been substantially weakened due to age and illness. His decline was noted by many people: Mihawk, Crocodile, Marco, Sakazuki, Blackbeard and even Whitebeard himself.
Sanji at Punk Hazard
Sanji's body suffered damage while Nami was in possession of it and this was noted by Sanji near immediately.
Smoker vs Vergo
Smoker wasn't fighting at his best against Vergo as he was trying to recover Law's heart. During the fight, Vergo commented that Smoker was fighting stupidly, and after Smoker returned Law's heart Law mentioned that Smoker wouldn't allow himself to be indebted to Pirates.
Doflamingo vs Luffy
Doflamingo had been weakened by Law's Gamma Knife and this was noted by Luffy.
Luffy vs Doflamingo
Luffy had taken some damage in his prior fights with Bellamy and co, and Doffy mentioned it.
Luffy vs Sanji
Luffy had taken a lot of damage in his prior fight with Cracker and Nami mentioned this.
Luffy vs Katakuri
When Luffy was unable to face Katakuri because he could not use haki, he mentioned it of his own accord.
Luffy at Udon
Luffy had been weakened due to the Kairouseki handcuffs.
The above list is by no means exhaustive (for one there's a hard image limit of 40 images and preparing all the panels is a chore). For another trying to reread all 981 chapters of One Piece to identify all instances of characters being weakened or not fighting at their best is a highly nontrivial task. As space permits though, I would add other examples I learn of to this post.
Zoro vs Cabaji
Zoro vs the Nyaban Brothers
Zoro at Arlong Park
Zoro was very weakened due to the damage he took from Mihawk. He's shown sweating profusely and short of breath, and ends up falling down a few times during his battle with Hachi. That he has a fever is mentioned several times and we are outright told that the his wounds were too deep and would have killed normal people or at least crippled them for half a year. Arlong questions how he can even stand.
Zoro at the Davy Back Fight
Strawhats at Water Seven
Zoro against Ryuma
Ryuma vs Zoro
Zoro at Sabaody
Whitebeard at Marineford
Sanji at Punk Hazard
Smoker vs Vergo
Doflamingo vs Luffy
Luffy vs Doflamingo
Luffy vs Sanji
Luffy vs Katakuri
Luffy at Udon
The above list is by no means exhaustive (for one there's a hard image limit of 40 images and preparing all the panels is a chore). For another trying to reread all 981 chapters of One Piece to identify all instances of characters being weakened or not fighting at their best is a highly nontrivial task. As space permits though, I would add other examples I learn of to this post.
How many instances do we have of characters being significantly hindered (combat ability wise) and Oda not having inidicated or mentioned it in some form (either by the character, by spectators or by their opponents)? The only one that comes to mind as a potential counterexample is Charlotte Linlin, but I didn't pay attention to WCI (so it may have been brought up, and it's not clear how much of it is her truly being weakened and how much of it is Oda clowning on her, gag scenes, plot induced stupidity or plot conveniences). At any rate Oda has been sufficiently poor in his handling Big Mom that I usually refrain from powerscaling her.
For those who believe there hasn't been opportunities to do this, here are some examples of how Killer been weakened due to lacking his main weapons could have been mentioned:
- Zoro could have noted that Killer's movements weren't that fluid as if he was unaccustomed to his weapons.
- Zoro did note that Killer is tough so it would have been in character for him to do so. Instead Oda chose to have Zoro comment on Killer's toughness to show us that Killer was strong.
- Gyukimaru could have noted this and mentioned it instead. He was observing the fight and was clearly a weapons master of high skill.
- Killer could have wished for his original weapons while he was fighting Zoro.
- When he met Kidd in Udon and was crying over his failure he could have cursed the lack of his original weapons. His failure would have been attributed to the weapons he had available if they were indeed the cause.
At this point you get the idea. Oda had opportunities to let us know that Killer was significantly weakened. Ample opportunity (and he could have invented more if needed, he's the author!), and he did not tell us so (in constrast we've already been told that Zoro is not at his best when he lacks three swords). If Killer was weakened, this would be incredibly surprising. When characters are significantly weakened, Oda goes out of his way to tell us so. There was no need to tell us that:
- The Kairouseki handcuffs in Udon weakened Luffy.
- We're not idiots, we know that devil fruit users are weakened by Kairouseki.
- Doflamingo was in decline after Gamma Knife
- Of course getting your organs shredded and merely mitigating the damage with first aid weakens you.
- WB was in decline at Marineford
- We saw him on Life Support not long before and he was stabbed through his chest.
- Mihawk's slash nerfed Zoro at Arlong Park
- Again, we're not idiots, the damage Zoro took from Mihawk was pretty bad.
I could go on, but you get the point. Even when he really does not need to, Oda goes out of his way to tell us that characters have been significantly weakened. Characters being weakened and Oda not telling us is very rare (barring the dubious Linlin example I mentioned earlier, I am not aware of any other instances). Our prior probability that a character would have been significantly weakened and Oda would show zero indication of it should be very low.
At this point, "Killer's combat ability was reduced because he was lacking his main weapons" is nothing but headcanon, and it isn't just headcanon, it's headcanon that is heavily contradicted by the manga.
Reiterating how appealing the headcanon is from your priors does not get around the fact that the manga doesn't back the headcanon up and flat out contradicts it.
and i will support this with a single panel destroying all this shit and oda showed it sanji was blackmailed by big mom if he didn't get married to her daughter Zeff would die and he had to leave the crew forever and you know what luffy came to bring him out but sanji didn't want that because he was blackmailed by them to protect zeff and his crew themself so he worked under big mom / his father and fought luffy on panel and tried the best of his ability and he said this shit on panel and him and after that he appeared crying the same shit killer did he got blackmailed to protect his crew he tried his best to do that and he cried after that and oda highlighted Killer and Kid will and if someone like killer couldn't do something sanji did he can get the fk out of supernovas and have sanji replacing him then .