General & Others When and why did the manga go downhill?

[soupongo]

It does, but people were SHOOK by G2 in the same way, saying it's asspull bullshit and shouldn't exist, changes his fruit, bla bla bla. Now in retrospect it's seen as a very creative power up.

What differs is it's almost necessary from a storytelling POV. It is what was needed to bring Luffy into direct conflict with the World Government. It's existence created new enemies for him and aligned his interests with those of Dragon and Sabo. The story in its current state would actually be more disjointed without it. Oda had teased it many times before; it's not like it came out of nowhere. We all knew Luffy would awaken his fruit at some point too. I'd agree with the concerns if it wasn;t a powerup that was EARNED, or if this is how things were from chapter 1, but that simply isn't the case.

This is the knee jerk reaction, and when people have more story content to digest, they will reframe it in a different light. It happened with all the other gears before in the exact same way.

Well people can say whatever they want, g5 did quite literally change his fruit. g2 is somewhat of an asspull and a stretch of what Luffys fruit could do, but it remained the gum gum fruit, now we have Luffy eating a different fruit, a mythical zoan Nika fruit that acts different from other mythical zoans(no one thinks Sengoku is the literal buddah).

How is it needed from a story perspective? You seriously think Luffy needed a fruit to be in direct conflict with the world government? Luffy wants to be the most free man on the seas, the world government is oppressive and currently planning a ¨great cleansing¨. And lets not forget Luffy already had the will of D, which we know means he is an enemy of the gods, aka the celestial dragons.

It basically did come out of nowhere. Nika was first mentioned after chapter 1000, during the raid itself. The Gorosei never mentioned Luffys fruit before the raid either.

 

[Konstantis]

From WCI part 2 it started to falling. The worse arc was Wano

 

[FutureWarrior123]

I think Wano was the only truly garbage arc in Post-TS. Overall I do think there's somewhat of a decline from Pre-TS but post Wano it's starting to pick things back up.

 

[Senfret]

A question to those fans who feel that one piece went downhill after a certain point… When was it in your opinion?

When their fanfic didn't came to fruition Example. Wano

 

[Rej]

One Piecer never went downhill. It maybe started fluctuating, but it's stronger than ever.

It going downhill is something that has been made up by unsatisfied shounen retards.

It's all facts.

 

[SakazOuki]

Wedding cake

 

[ShinichiMugi]

After the timeskip

 

[Nagasaki]

What ruined One Piece were the years that Oda spent drawing between Marineford and Fishman Island. There's no point in saying that One Piece is still good, the story may still be extraordinary, but it's not as fun as it used to be. I've never picked up any post-Time Skip saga to rewatch, but I've done it with almost all of them before Time Skip. The problem is simply the dynamics. This is nothing new. It's just that you can't focus on anything during the chapters, there are dozens and dozens of characters, if not hundreds of them. This dynamic was fun even in Impel Down, where Luffy shared the spotlight against 3 characters (Buggy, Candle Guy, Bo-chan) and then 3 others (Iva, Jinbei and Crocodile) when they were all in the same focus. Oda failed in the Fishman Island Saga, it was the worst saga in the manga, so he got bored and couldn't keep the dynamics as good as they were before the Time Skip, where we could appreciate the protagonists very well, and the tertiary characters didn't steal the scene. Now, except for Zoro, the SH have become tertiary, the dynamics are very bad. All the arcs are a war, all of them, with dozens of characters, plots, fights, without focus.

Don't get me wrong, please. The story is still good because of the mysteries, and it's also gotten more interesting because there are more characters to discuss, depth, and power levels. I'm just saying that it's not as fun as it used to be and that the post-TS Sagas aren't something I'd be willing to rewatch again for pure entertainment.

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

Dressrosa as the start if its downfall
WCI second half confirmed it
Wano killed it
Egghead killed it more
Elbaf is revising it a bit but can't undo all the damages done

ACCURATE

 

[Lord fifth]

Dressrosa as the start if its downfall
WCI second half confirmed it
Wano killed it
Egghead killed it more
Elbaf is revising it a bit but can't undo all the damages done

Wow it's been dead for 11 years?

Man you must a pretty disgusting worm stick suckling on a long dead body?

 

[D. Plant]

The timeskip is a mistake, Oda rebranded the Strawhats giving them new design and powerup so they won't have much development later in the story. This allow Oda to fit more characters into the story. Instead Oda should show Strawhats grow in the story, not some timeskips or one-time feat in the whole post timeskip.

But for casual reader or someone who reads continuously instead of weekly, there won't be any problem. It's like you drive a car very fast on a highway, you won't pay attention to anything happening on the road side. However, if you are walking, you might notice there is a dog taking a dump, or even a squirrel that has a huge sack of balls climbing a tree.

 

[kumae]

Whole cake but dressrosa started to give signs

 

[Just a member]

We can say it started with the post time skip. Sabaody 2.0 was maybe the funniest arc ever, good, but Fishman island already felt a bit off but people were still in the early post time skip, not much after the peak that was Marineford, also a small introductory arc. No problem. Punk hazard was ok as well, not exceptional but not bad either. Dressrosa too was even good, G4 was hype, finally some semi serious fight in the post time skip, all good.

WCI was the downfall, long, the big bad villain, a yonko for the first time, was the greatest help for the half SH crew that went to WCI. So they humiliated a yonko crew in her headquarters, stole her poneglyphs and even beat almost all her commanders. A let down, also that weeding cake scream still remain in quite some fans, and chapter 900 for me was a big betrayal (it was when it seemed BM come back to her usual self, she was about to deliver a Sabaody 2.0 ala destroy the Sunny and scatter again the ship but that was just Oda making fake tension moments in a mile chapter, 900).

Wano was then the real nail in the coffin that sealed the deal. A never ending arc, Luffy wanked to the heavens, Kidd and Law become his cheerleaders and finally lost 4 or 5 times to Kaido just to resuscitate as the second coming of OP Jesus. But by the end, even mid really, of Wano arc I already didn't care anymore.

After that I read maybe a chapter if I stumble upon it but there is really nothing interesting, the reverie stuff was good, the fight with the elders in Egghead was ok I guess, Shanks destroying Kidd was fin, especially some reaction in this forum lol, now we have this circus with El Hermano but overall they are just some sparks in the night.

 

[Uncle Van]

I actually don't think that One Piece has gone downhill. But, I do think it's shifted it's focus from where it used to be.

Every arc used to be more character focused. And we used to be almost guaranteed to get a new crewmember every arc, because that's the formula that got established. I think this is partially why so many people keep expecting characters like Carrot and Yamato to join the crew. In the past, if a character got a major focus, they would join the crew. That's just how the formula worked back then.

But, nowadays, I think the story is less character focused and more plot focused. Oda is more interested in writing about the larger world and the larger themes of the story. He's more focused on the bigger picture, rather than the details and the character moments we used to get.

You could even make the case that the story is more villain focused. Because, I do think that the "modern" One Piece villains are usually written as being more complex and layered than the "classic" One Piece villains. Most of the "modern" villains have a sympathetic backstory, and Oda goes out of the way to show how their original dreams were actually pretty understandable. The villain's dream's just got corrupted over time.

Instead of being focused on the Strawhats, the story is now focused on the larger plot going on all around the world. It's more interested in the various factors and events that lead into how the World became like this, rather than on the adventures and desires of the Strawhats, themselves.

There's definitely been trade offs to this. Before, we would get more time with our main characters, and more chances for them to interact together. But, the story was much more similar to other shonen action manga. Nowadays, I think the story is a lot more complex and layered. There's a lot more ideas to unpack and explore in each arc. The villains have more complex and nuanced motivations. But, we've kind of lost that character focus and interactions that made the first part of the story so charming, and that's a shame.



A lot of people are going to say this happened post-timeskip. And that's actually fair enough. It's the most obvious place to point out how the story changed. A lot of other stuff changed around that same time, so it's just very easy and "clean" to say that it all changed during the timeskip. Some people might even say this kicked into high gear around the time of the Nika reveal in Wano.

But, I actually think the change happened earlier than that.

This video goes into more detail about the idea, if you want to give it a watch.

They actually make a fair argument that the change from being character-focused to plot-focused originally happened during Thriller Bark. And even nails down the very scene where the entire story changed focus.

"Nothing happened."

Now, this is a all-time great scene, don't get me wrong. But, it does show a change in how Oda approaches the story. Before this point, you could make a argument that ALL the Strawhat's dreams were equally important. They ALL mattered and had to be seen through to completion.

But, during this scene, Zoro is basically willing to sacrifice his dream to save Luffy. He's willing to die, to make sure Luffy survives in order to see his dream come true. Narratively, this makes Luffy's dream the most important dream of them all. The story is no longer about ALL the Strawhats achieving their dreams together. It's now about all the Strawhats working together to make sure Luffy's dream can come true.

And it's kind of telling that almost immediately after Thriller Bark, the Strawhats are all separated, and the manga becomes the Luffy Show for a few arcs, basically until after the timeskip. This is no longer a ensemble story, really. This story is now about Luffy. Luffy is our main character, and everyone else is a member of his supporting cast.



So, I'm not totally convinced there's been a change for the worse. But, I do think there's been a noticeable change. I think we've traded character complexity for plot and world-building complexity. And I'm pretty sure that change has it's roots ALL the way back in Thriller Bark.

I very much disagree with this. While it is true that postskip gives more attention to the overarching plot, Oda did not sacrifice the character-focused writing. The character writing and thematic storytelling are still present; Oda just shifted the character writing to a ton of minor characters instead of the more important ones. The postskip arcs tend to be excessively bloated due to Oda's self admitted habit of adding new things on the fly.

In Skypia for example, Enel's 4 priests were just goons like they should've been, and the Shandians mostly focused on Wiper and Aisa. If this was postkip, Enel would've had 8 priests, and Wiper would've had about 4-7 other Shandians rolling with him. We would then have a entire chapters dedicated to a flashback for both parties, and full chapters for a priest vs a shandian in a 1v1. All of this extra attention to minor characters at the expense of the SHs.

 

[OykotsTreasure]

That's kind of what I meant by the "villain focused" part of my post. Maybe I could have worded that better, I'll admit.

I don't mean to say there's NO character writing after the change. Far from it. We've gotten some really memorable backstories since then. Law and Kuma to name a few. I just think there's less focus on that, rather than the overarching story that Oda is trying to tell.

In the second half of this story, I think a lot of people were expecting the Strawhat's dreams to be a bigger part of the plot. Like, maybe we'd go to a cooking island for a arc, to help fulfill Sanji's dream. Or a island of swordsmen for Zoro. Something like that.

But, instead, I feel like we're getting arcs that more foreshadow the eventual reveal of the Ancient Kingdom's history, or the broader history of the World. This is more my personal theory, but I think almost every arc since the timeskip has probably been showing us events that likely played out very similarly to events that happend in the past. History repeats itself, and all that.

So, instead of the characters driving what happens in the story, the plot is the one driving the story. Because Oda has this big, epic tale that we wants to tell.

I would argue that before the change, One Piece was a more character-driven story. The individual character's dreams and desires are what caused events to happen. We got a story about a cook...because Luffy WANTED a chef for his crew. We went to Arlong Park, because Nami chose to abandon the crew. The character's decisions helped to decide what happened in the plot, at least a little moreso than after the change.

After the change, I think this has become a more plot-driven story. Things are happening in the story, not because of the motivations of the characters, but because of things like "destiny" and "inherited will". We go to islands, not because the Strawhats really WANT to go to these specific islands, but because the audience kind of HAS to go to these islands, to explain the history of this world. Destiny and prophecy and cyclical history is playing a much bigger role in this half of the story than the first half.

Even the flashbacks and backstories have kind of shifted to accommodate this. The flashbacks have taken on a dual purpose. Usually, these backstories aren't JUST being used to give us a way to get to know the people on the islands, anymore. They're also being used to flesh out the world. We aren't JUST learning about Doflamingo, we also learn a little something about the Celestial Dragons. We don't JUST learn about Law, we also learn about these mystery ancient diseases that seem to be returning to the World. We don't JUST learn about Kuma, we also learn about the Rocks Pirates and God Valley. All these flashbacks DO help us get to know these characters. But, they're also being used to world build more than they were before.

Whereas, before, I think only Robin's flashback really gave us some bigger world-building, rather than just explaining her personal desires. Maybe Brook, but that's mostly for Bink's Sake. For the most part, the Strawhat's backstories really just helped us to get to know WHY they wanted what they wanted. There wasn't AS MUCH of a secondary desire to show off more of the world.

Again, though, it's more of a "shift" than a "replacement". This is a change of a matter of degrees. But, I do think it is a noticeable change. The character writing is still there. I won't say otherwise. But, before the change, I think character came first and plot came second as a priority for Oda. After the change, I think plot is coming first, and character is coming second. But, mileage may vary.

And I'm not saying plot-heavy stories are a bad thing. I enjoy a LOT of plot-heavy stories. Most high fantasy or science fiction stories are heavily plot-driven. I just think One Piece didn't used to be quite as heavily plot driven before this change occurred. I think there is a reason why a large group of people don't seem to click with this story the way they did before. It's a common enough sentiment that I think there's merit to saying that something has definitely changed in this formula, and people notice it.

 

[TheLastBerserker]

Oda not killing characters that should be dead
Usopp and Sanji being alive
Wasted potential character arcs
and the list goes on

 

[HellBlazer04]

Everything post Dressrosa has been downhill in terms quality
For me, that's where the downfall started

 

[moreha9685]

FMI, for a very minor reason. I wasn't bothered by Hody. I wasn't bothered by Decker's polarizing character. I wasn't bothered by Caribou. But I was bothered by the fact that we did not visit the fishmen karate dojo.

That was the first arc in which one of the destinations readers were expecting to see was not featured, and it was also the beginning of Oda's forgetting to or choosing not to homage in-world cultural set-ups in the latest arc. Similarly, we never visited the graveyard in Wano, or even a goddamned swordsmanship school. For a country that has unique swordsmanship techniques like fire-cutting, the "swordsmanship" part of it was very lacking.

It was a minor thing, but at that point, this was the sort of detail the world of OP was built on, it was what kept it somewhat alive.

Then things only spiraled out more when Oda decided to have the SHs encounter situations or character deeply connected to their dreams, and have fuck-all happen. See Chopper not curing the ice zombie virus, or Franky sharing no interesting panels with Vegapunk.

 

[Topi Jerami]

But I was bothered by the fact that we did not visit the fishmen karate dojo.

I remember I was really excited to see Fishman Karate Dojo There were 2 places mentioned before FI arc, it was Fishman Dojo and Mermaid Cafe, and Oda skipped the more interesting one.

I also thought there would be fishmen more powerful than Jinbe in the island. The Loki equivalent (new ally character introduced) to Jinbe's Dory and Broggy (Luffy's strong ally we already met before we reached their island).

 

[garciajulieen]

I can tolerate FI because it was like a warming up after timeskip.

PH was dissapointing for me like Luffy being toyed by cesar and Smoker became a punching bag.

Dressrossa was bad especially for Ussop, like really bad. But i like SHGF.

Zou was good. Eventho there were no fight, i really enjoyed the arc.

Wci was only bad during weeding cake.

Wano was the worst, the only good thing is that Kaido was living up to his hype as being very strong.

Egghead was ok for me.

Lets see elbaf, so far its good tho.