Fanclub The V̶i̶n̶s̶m̶o̶k̶e̶ Sanji FC: The Prince of love
Fair enuff
You phrased this as "currently available" so as to sneak in the Holy Knights but that isn't necessarily true. Zoro and Sanji are typically pit against the antagonist's strongest executives and at best they usually have clashes against the second stringers so no they are not simply delegated with whatever is available.
Whilst I agree with you that Zoro and Sanji prolly won't be getting the kinda flex that's let say Loki is/will be getting against Imu for instance (due to his current positioning in the narrative as nidhogg), the wings are usually pit against the top brass of the antagonist's group, who are not usually quite as strong as their leader but still relative to them in some capacity (a full tier at worst).
Moreover in addition to this pattern the wings matchups are usually of major importance to overall arc narrative like Luffy usually has a towering wall to overcome, Zoro and Sanji are usually given a similar type of towering obstacle as well.
Zoro and Sanji's opponents are usually mad strong and not opponents that even Luffy can just walk over but Luffy can be rest assured that as long as Zoro and Sanji are with him they will take care of bidness and he can leave everything else up to them and focus on the big bad.
Moreover even if Zoro and Sanji are still much weaker than the antagonist, either Zoro and or Sanji usually put in a very strong performance against said antagonist that is worthy of note to highlight them as "built different" even if they are Luffy's subordinates which preserves the M3 dynamic. (i.e. Recent examples of this were Zoro v Kaido and Sanji v Kizaru (not full on fights but little clashes that tell the antagonist "broski we outchea so watch your back"). They are usually also strong enough to be able to carry if Luffy is every down for the count for any reason.
Lastly, on Zoro and Sanji's opponents even if they are usually much weaker than their leader, Oda still preserves their hype as formiddable opponents regardless of the type of opposition they face prior. See Jack v Inu and Neko, See Queen v O-Lin, See King v Big Mom's ship.
So yes Bummers are Bellingham are not passing the sniff test on any of those criteria.
Not only are they second stringers, their hype is currently in the toilet, stakes for beating them are also pretty low so what exactly is there to even look forward to about these guys. I hear folks saying Omen this and Omen that but they are so fucking shite that even if their stats get amped the bar is already so fucking low for them that I have no expectations for them (i.e. this is not at all normal for Zoro and Sanji fights). Moroever the fact that Oda has already revealed their weakeness as their hearts only gives the fight even less tension. At that point might as well feed them to the weaker SHs as they can be killed long as you destroy their hearts.
You just completely ignored what I said lol
We have 2 examples of Imu "separating" themselves and showcasing their "true" form despite being connected to someone they've possessed
There's a pretty clear difference between these 2. Imu was able to separate himself while Saturn remained in his transformed state but the second he separated himself from Gunko she lost the wings and trident. Like she literally lost them in the same panel
You can't just brush past this
We have 2 examples of Imu "separating" themselves and showcasing their "true" form despite being connected to someone they've possessed
You can't just brush past this
You just completely ignored what I said lol
We have 2 examples of Imu "separating" themselves and showcasing their "true" form despite being connected to someone they've possessed
There's a pretty clear difference between these 2. Imu was able to separate himself while Saturn remained in his transformed state but the second he separated himself from Gunko she lost the wings and trident. Like she literally lost them in the same panel
You can't just brush past this
We have 2 examples of Imu "separating" themselves and showcasing their "true" form despite being connected to someone they've possessed
You can't just brush past this
Gunko has always been one of am exceptions to the holy knights you can’t use her hype for fodders like Sommers and Killingham.
Fair enuff
He's a pretty cool antagonist in my book. He's like a "love to hate" kinda guy and I rock with those characters
But no one here is acknowledging that the formula isn't the same
Luffy is not set to defeat the boss of this arc, his goal is to stall them. Victory for Luffy is stalling while Zoro and Sanji will likely pull out a win against (now) competent opponents. As for their importance Zoro and Sanji will likely be the X factors that force Imu back to Mariejois (Imu is notably weakened if any of the Holy Knights/Gorosei die and 2 of them will fall this arc)
I certainly wouldn't say that's always the case. Luffy would steamroll Hachi/Kuroobi, Bon Clay's fruit would be useless against Luffy (which is the only reason he was able to keep up with Sanji in the first place), and 1010+ Luffy would absolutely demolish King or Queen. Pre powerup Sanji was able to hold them off in a 2v1. I have no doubt that the Luffy who was going back and forth with ACoC wielding hybrid Kaido could embarrass them
Yes, and the Holy Knights are noted to be strong. Not only were they already strong enough to fold the Strawhats outside of the M3 but they've now been buffed and will likely be defeated by a weakened Zoro and Sanji. That's more than enough to highlight them as problems to the World Government
Because the goal is an absolute victory in most of those scenarios. None of these formulas worked in WCI, why? Because Oda broke the mold completely and styled the arc in a different way
If Imu really is the final villain (which is likely) then Luffy and Loki will not truly defeat him this arc. Not only is he borderline confirmed to be nerfed but he's also on a time limit that's likely the key to his "loss" in Elbaf. In Enies Lobby Luffy beat Lucci in straight combat while Zoro and Sanji also handled their opponents
In Elbaf "victory" for Luffy is simply surviving the natural disaster that is Imu while Zoro and Sanji actually take the Holy Knights down. 2 completely different ball games
Most of this is based on the fact that you feel like they lack credibility as valid opponents. Which is fair but a character having hype or not has never lowered their chances of fighting Zoro or Sanji
A lot of people (Sanji fans included) clowned Queen and to a lesser extent King before their fights with the wings. Queen got embarrassed by Big Mom (with only Sanji fans defending him once their fight started, claiming that he actually broke Big Mom's skull) and Zoro fans claimed that after his performance on the Rooftop and King's lackluster showing against Marco there was no way they would fight
What happened? They fought anyway
Lucci's hype was in the toilet after getting thrashed by Luffy and that's what led Zoro fans to believe that he'd clean up Lucci quick before his fight with Kizaru. What happened instead? Zoro was stuck babysitting Lucci for 6 straight months
And it's been made pretty obvious that they have a special relationship which isn't confirmed to have any correlation with strength. She's Imu's personal attendant
We know that she has a hidden past and serves Imu personally. None of that gives her special portrayal in the strength department. All that means is she's narratively more important than the other Holy Knights
Imu also has it out for Vivi and singles her out alongside Luffy, Blackbeard, and Shirahoshi. Does that mean she's as strong as they are?
We know that she has a hidden past and serves Imu personally. None of that gives her special portrayal in the strength department. All that means is she's narratively more important than the other Holy Knights
Imu also has it out for Vivi and singles her out alongside Luffy, Blackbeard, and Shirahoshi. Does that mean she's as strong as they are?
She's ageless, that's the only known difference. She doesn't have a transformation so why would I assume she's automatically stronger?
I'm not hyping them, I'm simply stating that Gunko's strength portrayal isn't better or worse than Sommers or Killingham's. There's nothing she's done that tells us that she stands far above them
She handled the Strawhats and put them in binds that they couldn't get out of themselves. Well guess who did the same thing with thorns that not even Jinbei could separate?
I'm not hyping them, I'm simply stating that Gunko's strength portrayal isn't better or worse than Sommers or Killingham's. There's nothing she's done that tells us that she stands far above them
She handled the Strawhats and put them in binds that they couldn't get out of themselves. Well guess who did the same thing with thorns that not even Jinbei could separate?
Franky and Jimbe had no issue dealing with Killinghams Nightmare. Robin held back vs Sommers. Even Brooke fought Imunko for a bit. The HK absolutely HAVE NOT been dominating the weaker strawhats. Only Gunko did in their initial fight.
Also, Killingham got one shot by Sanji, just like Sanji did by Imu. Actually at least Sanji blocked the first kick and reacted to the 2nd. So if anything, the gap between Sanji and Killingham is bigger than the gap between Sanji and Imu. I have no reason to believe Omen buff will close that gap to that extent, would basically imply Omen Sanji > Imu.
Also, Killingham got one shot by Sanji, just like Sanji did by Imu. Actually at least Sanji blocked the first kick and reacted to the 2nd. So if anything, the gap between Sanji and Killingham is bigger than the gap between Sanji and Imu. I have no reason to believe Omen buff will close that gap to that extent, would basically imply Omen Sanji > Imu.
If the argument is that this is a transitional arc in which Imu is not going to get defeated here thus no real need to pit his top brass against Zoro and Sanji then the likelihood of Zoro and Sanji not getting any conclusive matchups is much higher than them being put against Bummers and Bellingham much less killing them. In trransitional arcs, Sanji never gets conclusive 1 v 1s only clashes.
I see the angle you're getting at with the Holy Knights being Imu's archilees heel but it's pretty hard to imagine Oda having Zoro and Sanji kill characters on panel. Never really happened before so I doubt OP suddenly becomes JJK.
I'm referring to the grandline in particularly. Kuroobi was a scrub even to Sanji so that isn't really a viable argument. Disagree on the rest. Can very easily see Luffy struggling as much Sanji did against Bentham he's a airhead 💀. Needless to say he would also struggle against Mr1. Likewise Luffy prior to his ACoC awakening ain't beating King and even though he's vastly superior to Queen in combat, he'd struggle against Queen's hax particularly is invicibilty not to mention Queen has his plagues as well. These guys are not a wash for Luffy regardless of whether he was able to tango with Kaido or not.
I completely disagree on the notion that the Holy Knights are this so called formidable force at the very least not Bummers and Kiringham who are the subject of our discussion. Moreover beating the non M3 SHs is nothing to write home about. Perorin negg'd Brook and Chopper on WCI. I'm not really sure where this confidence that weaklings who have been getting clowned by every competent combatant they've gone against so far and even gotten clowned by bloody Franky are suddenly going to become formidabble opponents for Zoro and Sanji because Daddy Imu gave them an amp boost but regardless I'm tired of arguing this notion that the Holy Knights are worth shit.
Broski I'm sorry but I'm not having this false equivalence that Queen's treatment is somehow the same as Bummers and Bellignham and I'm pretty sure I already made that disctinction in my prior post. Same asinine argument that Tesla's been making as well but we can disagree on this.
I can understand the argument that Bummners and Bellingham are the next best ting available after Imu on Elbaf atm but this attempt to gaslight us into believing that they aren't the bums that they are is not really flying with me and I'm not really tryna argue something that is bloody obvious. These fools are getting clowned even in the JP fanbase and the Japanese folks are not even about power levels like we are in the western fanbase that is how absolute toilet they've been so far.
I see the angle you're getting at with the Holy Knights being Imu's archilees heel but it's pretty hard to imagine Oda having Zoro and Sanji kill characters on panel. Never really happened before so I doubt OP suddenly becomes JJK.
I'm referring to the grandline in particularly. Kuroobi was a scrub even to Sanji so that isn't really a viable argument. Disagree on the rest. Can very easily see Luffy struggling as much Sanji did against Bentham he's a airhead 💀. Needless to say he would also struggle against Mr1. Likewise Luffy prior to his ACoC awakening ain't beating King and even though he's vastly superior to Queen in combat, he'd struggle against Queen's hax particularly is invicibilty not to mention Queen has his plagues as well. These guys are not a wash for Luffy regardless of whether he was able to tango with Kaido or not.
I completely disagree on the notion that the Holy Knights are this so called formidable force at the very least not Bummers and Kiringham who are the subject of our discussion. Moreover beating the non M3 SHs is nothing to write home about. Perorin negg'd Brook and Chopper on WCI. I'm not really sure where this confidence that weaklings who have been getting clowned by every competent combatant they've gone against so far and even gotten clowned by bloody Franky are suddenly going to become formidabble opponents for Zoro and Sanji because Daddy Imu gave them an amp boost but regardless I'm tired of arguing this notion that the Holy Knights are worth shit.
Broski I'm sorry but I'm not having this false equivalence that Queen's treatment is somehow the same as Bummers and Bellignham and I'm pretty sure I already made that disctinction in my prior post. Same asinine argument that Tesla's been making as well but we can disagree on this.
I can understand the argument that Bummners and Bellingham are the next best ting available after Imu on Elbaf atm but this attempt to gaslight us into believing that they aren't the bums that they are is not really flying with me and I'm not really tryna argue something that is bloody obvious. These fools are getting clowned even in the JP fanbase and the Japanese folks are not even about power levels like we are in the western fanbase that is how absolute toilet they've been so far.
