Worstgen
Cinera
You are sidestepping my point why did Oda have Kyoshiro's underlings say:
"Zolojuro's tough!! He's keepin' up with Boss Kyoshiro!!"?
What was the purpose of that statement?
"Zolojuro's tough!! He's keepin' up with Boss Kyoshiro!!"?
What was the purpose of that statement?
TheAncientCenturion
Yet we know he wasn’t stressed physically, as Oda didn’t use any of his signs. And he has no reason to fight To kill or incapacitate Zoro only stop him. Hence he isn’t using his full power.
TheAncientCenturion
A blanket statement for Zoro? These fodder have no idea of Kyoshiro’s motivations. To them, this could seem like a serious battle.
Cinera
That is unlikely. Oda often uses spectators to provide pertinent information on fights. The simplest explanation is that Oda wanted to tell us the reader that Zoro and Kyoshiro fought on par, and so he used the underlings to do so.
Cinera
In universe, as Kyoshiro's underlings, they would have seen him in many fights before, so they would have a good handle of his combat abilities.
Cinera
Hell, if Kyoshiro was not on the offensive at all and only blocked Zoro's attacks, then saying Zoro was keeping up with Kyoshiro makes no sense.
TheAncientCenturion
Again, it’s a pretty meaningless statement when you look at Kyoshiro’s motivation (Having no reason to go after Zoro and showing he’s able to block him with ease)
TheAncientCenturion
And Zoro looking increasingly frustrated in the fight whereas Kyoshiro is calm and collected. Visually, the most important aspect of a manga, doesn’t show Zoro in a positive light. It doesn’t show Kyoshiro taxed
Cinera
@TheAncientCenturion: your first statement sounds like your doing something very, very wrong.
You are interpreting the scene such that Oda's meta commentary (through his characters) is "meaningless". This is no better than someone interpreting the Punk Hazard duel to claim either Sakazuki or Kuzan was much stronger than the other (denying Jinbe's statement) or for Roger and Whitebeard (denying Buggy's statement).
You are interpreting the scene such that Oda's meta commentary (through his characters) is "meaningless". This is no better than someone interpreting the Punk Hazard duel to claim either Sakazuki or Kuzan was much stronger than the other (denying Jinbe's statement) or for Roger and Whitebeard (denying Buggy's statement).
Cinera
Like, this is just bad on so many levels. If you find yourself reasoning out of conclusions the author has basically told us, then you've done something incredibly wrong.
Another apt analogy is @nik87 and co who claim that Pre Enma Zoro is dead equal to Post Enma Zoro because Enma isn't a magic sword and once tamed behaves the same as any other sword (Zoro's training was to cut only small bamboo shoots).
Another apt analogy is @nik87 and co who claim that Pre Enma Zoro is dead equal to Post Enma Zoro because Enma isn't a magic sword and once tamed behaves the same as any other sword (Zoro's training was to cut only small bamboo shoots).
Cinera
Their reasoning is actually more plausible. It's true that Enma itself isn't a power up, and now that Zoro has tamed it trading it for another sword of the same grade would make no difference to his ability. If you were asked by nik to point out concrete stats that Zoro has improved in, or feats he can perform now that he couldn't perform before, you'll find it difficult.
Elder Lee Hung
@Cinera so you believe onlookers when they say “Zoro is keeping up with Kyoshiro” but not when they call Mihawk’s attack on Jozu “the World’s Strongest Slash?”
Cinera
Nik would tell you that this is because Zoro isn't actually any stronger and the growth he was talking about referred to something else.
I'll insist that Oda's intent (through the characters words) was to convey that the Enma training made Zoro stronger so he is indeed stronger. It doesn't matter that I can't (yet) point to concrete improvements.
I'll insist that Oda's intent (through the characters words) was to convey that the Enma training made Zoro stronger so he is indeed stronger. It doesn't matter that I can't (yet) point to concrete improvements.
Cinera
The argument you're making is just a less plausible version of the argument nik and co is making.
My core rebuttal can be summarised as: subjective interpretation should not be given priority over direct unambiguous statements of author intent.
My core rebuttal can be summarised as: subjective interpretation should not be given priority over direct unambiguous statements of author intent.
Cinera
@Admiral Lee Hung: my belief is that what was being conveyed was that the slash was a slash from the world's strongest swordsman (the same way Yasaka no Magatama was hyped up as "the Admiral's attack"). It's not that I don't believe the characters statements, but that's what I think they are getting at.
nik87
I play an entirely different game, I think Fishman Island Zoro was already above King so Jack and alike are like a snack...
Also, people draw too many conclusions from meaningless clashes(Zoro vs Kyoshiro/Zoro vs Gyukimaru/Zoro and Luffy and Kidd vs Apoo)...
Whether Enma changed anything about Zoro or not, remains to be seen.
Also, people draw too many conclusions from meaningless clashes(Zoro vs Kyoshiro/Zoro vs Gyukimaru/Zoro and Luffy and Kidd vs Apoo)...
Whether Enma changed anything about Zoro or not, remains to be seen.
Cinera
At any rate, those fodder were Kyoshiro's underlings, and so should have witnessed him in combat on many occasions (and so would be able to tell if Zoro was keeping up with him or not). They're statements on Kyoshiro's combat showings are credible.
Marine soldier #53 would have no way of knowing what Mihawk's strongest attack was.
Marine soldier #53 would have no way of knowing what Mihawk's strongest attack was.
Cinera
@ShishioIsBack: get in here fam.
ShishioIsBack
Based on spoilers is it fair to consider Denjiro YC1 level? I mean he basically did to sasaki who is good deal stronger than Ichiji what Katakuri did to Ichiji @Admiral Lee Hung
Zoro didn't want to kill Kyoshiro either, but he did want to get past him. Kyoshiro was able to accomplish his goals (protect Orochi) and prevent Zoro from accomplishing his. However, Oda did tell us that Zoro was fighting on par with Kyoshiro. He wouldn't have said that if Kyoshiro was massively holding back.