Worstgen
Elder Lee Hung
@Cinera dont you think Luffy surpassing the YC1 would be undermined from a narrative perspective if the YC1 Luffy defeated is far weaker than the others? I doubt Luffy is going to fight any more YC1s after Kuri.
Buusatan94
Yes the time where a YC1 could have been Luffy's greatest obstacle and opponent is over. It's the Yonkos who are the obstacle and challenge to overcome now.
Cinera
@TheAncientCenturion
Pfeh, I don't find that logic convincing at all. But I also don't find it convincing for Mihawk vs Shanks, so make of it what you will.
I expect the YC bounties accurately rank their combat ability (perhaps excluding Shiryu).
Beckman > Marco > King > Kata is what I would believe if the bounties showed it.
Pfeh, I don't find that logic convincing at all. But I also don't find it convincing for Mihawk vs Shanks, so make of it what you will.
I expect the YC bounties accurately rank their combat ability (perhaps excluding Shiryu).
Beckman > Marco > King > Kata is what I would believe if the bounties showed it.
Cinera
@Admiral Lee Hung the narrative of Luffy surpassing YCs is already undermined by Luffy having a bounty below some YCs (Marco, Beckman and likely King).
Luffy facing the Yonkou show he's left YCs in the dust.
Post WCI Luffy was probably weaker than Beckman, so Luffy hadn't surpassed YCs as a group by then.
Luffy facing the Yonkou show he's left YCs in the dust.
Post WCI Luffy was probably weaker than Beckman, so Luffy hadn't surpassed YCs as a group by then.
Cinera
Shiryu may also be above Post WCI Luffy.
Elder Lee Hung
@Cinera well, didn’t you also say that bounties are more hype tools than they are power level indicators? I think post WCI Luffy would at best extreme diff Kuri anyway, so it’s not like he’s leagues above the FM at that point. He’d probably beat Becky and Shiryu extreme diff or draw with them.
TheAncientCenturion
Bounties can portray level differences in strength, I agree, but it's not an absolute rule. Jack the Drought's bounty is near identical to Katakuri's but he was still slashed and had his weapon broken by Ashura Doji. Katakuri wouldn't of been phased. Bounties as a metric isn't absolute. Considering the destructive nature of the All Stars compared to the diplomatic BMPs, it's no wonder they're worth more.
TheAncientCenturion
If these characters didn't occupy the exact same role in each Yonkou crew, I would agree with you Cinera. King would be > Katakuri. But I don't see a reason to give the benefit of the doubt to Zoro here. Both King and Katakuri are the same rank. One pushed Luffy to new heights, the other will do the same to Zoro. But, consistently, Luffy > Zoro in the manga. Hence his "push" is even stronger.
Cinera
Beckman has to be at least a low top tier. He's Shanks partner and shares the Roger - Rayleigh, Luffy - Zoro relationship. Shanks ain't low diffing Beckman, so that's where he's at.
Post WCI Luffy was a high high tier. Current Luffy might win.
Post WCI Luffy was a high high tier. Current Luffy might win.
Cinera
@TheAncientCenturion I'm looking at the ordering of the Bounties for characters in the same reference class.
WB > Kaido > Big Mom > Shanks > Blackbeard.
King > Kata.
But Kata > Queen.
WB > Kaido > Big Mom > Shanks > Blackbeard.
King > Kata.
But Kata > Queen.
TheAncientCenturion
But Ace's bounty was only 550, and he's arguably stronger than Cracker, who's 820 dwarfs Ace's. It's not a reliable metric.
Cinera
I understand the Luffy argument, but I reject it for Mihawk and Shanks, so I'm kind of committed to rejecting it here.
Let's say we ignore bounties.
Kaido is still stronger than Big Mom.
The Tobi Roppo are still decisively above the vets.
It only feels natural to expect Kaido's YC 1 > Big Mom's YC 1.
Let's say we ignore bounties.
Kaido is still stronger than Big Mom.
The Tobi Roppo are still decisively above the vets.
It only feels natural to expect Kaido's YC 1 > Big Mom's YC 1.
TheAncientCenturion
But it's a little different here. Shanks is *not* Luffy's goal. Luffy's goal is surpassing Shanks, Big Mom, Kaido and Blackbeard. Mihawk is Zoro's lone goal. But Mihawk even claims Luffy's goal is harder/more dangerous than Zoro's.
Cinera
(@TheAncientCenturion IMO Ace was WB's YC 4 specifically because of his low bounty. Vista and Jozu surely have bounties above that range, and Ace's bounty is comparable to Snack's 600 million. I do agree that Ace was much stronger than his bounty suggests).
Elder Lee Hung
@Cinera i would think the opposite is true tbh. If Kaido > Big Mom, his crew > her crew, then there have to be at least some members of her crew are pretty significantly stronger than his to maintain the balance, right? Kaido couldn’t surpass Big Mom to become the King after all.
Cinera
@Admiral Lee Hung Kaido's been preparing for "the greatest war the world has ever seen" for quite a while.. I'm sceptical their crews are truly balanced combat wise.
Elder Lee Hung
@Cinera Meme already did low diff Gear 4 did she not? It was her best feat lol.
Cinera
Did she? Hmmm, I thought Luffy might have run out of haki due to exhaustion. If she can drain haki that is pretty broken.