Character Discussion “Zoro trained for everything and will become WSS through his own strength” is completely false

Does Zoro being born with CoC ruin the notion of him becoming WSS solely through his hard work?

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But the bottom line is without Judge‘s experiments, Sanji dies to Queen. I can’t get behind that, not when there was the potential for the much stronger story of Sanji prevailing over Judge and his siblings using only what people like Zeff taught him. Even if his fire powers had been tied to his mother’s side, or even just make all the Vinsmokes of Lunarian descent and able to make fire, none of that would bother me. It’s specifically Sanji’s successes now relying on Judge’s extremely unethical experiments, coupled with how Judge then treated Sanji for being a failure, that rankles. This is a vindication of what Judge did.

We now actually have to say, “boy, it’s a good thing Sanji was experimented on by Judge”, which is nuts when that led to Sanji’s mothers death and his shit childhood.

It would be like it we were suddenly being told that Caeser’s experiments on the kids of Punk Hazard were a positive thing, just because Vegapunk (presumably) is going to stop them from dying because of it.

As for the natural advantage question, it’s the difference between someone being a naturally gifted runner and someone taking a ton of steroids to get to the same speed. Life isn’t fair, some people are born better than others, doesn’t mean mad science experiments on children is the way to combat that. There’s a reason no one likes Lance Armstrong anymore.
Sanji mom didn't care if Sanji was strong with enhancememts. She did that cause of the emotions. She succeeded


Ragnarok is Here!
@Garp the Fist is just saying straight facts on this matter, nothing else i can add :kayneshrug:

It's also funny how even after 1010 chapter many were saying "Zoro still doesn't have it, Kaido just understood it wrong"

and now it somehow changed to

"Zoro has CoC all this time and it has carried him up to here because of an advantage he has above others, an advantage he was born with, and he also has all these other advantages because is from the Shimotsuki Lineage"

just after we found out about Sanji's PU

You are backtracking on what you said here

You basically admited that some things are not earned because some are "naturally gifted" and "life is not fair".

We were comparing "naturally gifted" with Judge rigging the game to also "gift" his children.

So either way, those added benefits are not earned. KAido doesn't earn his birth as an ogre. Big Mom doesn't earn her birth as a freak of nature. Jimbe did not earn being born as a fishman 10x stronger at base.

I mean some do, but that doesn't even change anything about the argument i am making. Either way powers obtained under conditions that we are not meant to root for, can lead to outcomes that we are meant to root for and benefit the good guys.

Either way, it does not validate in any way the manner in which those people got experimented on or tries to enforce the notion that it's a good thing to do. Oda's not writting a story here where Sanji's going to become an advocate of child experimentation and it's benefits, that's a hilarious way to look at this.

But Sanji had the agency in this. None of this would have happened if Sanji was like his family. Judge and his family alongside all of Germa would have been destroyed. All of this is only possible because Sanji chose to act entirely unlike Germa, and follow Zeff's principles.

Now Sanji's getting the type of powers Judge gave to his supposed "perfect soldiers" children, and he's going to reach heights they can only dream of because of the life he has lived, and all of the choices he has made that has separated him from Germa.

The Sanji that becomes what Judge wanted of him is Yonji 2.0. Sanji beating Queen and stronger opponents in the future is only possible because he did not live his life the way his siblings did.

Sanji needs to continue to confront his Germa roots because his end game continues to be tied with Germa. He's the one that will change the Kingdom, and use it's resources to better the world instead, as he's going to do with his newfound powers.

We know that Judge is wrong. Judge died at Big Mom's Tea Party with everyone including his children laughing at him. This is Sanji dealing with his past, and changing things for the better.
That's not what backtracking means, dumbass. His points were still consistent. Being more talented doesn't invalidate their hard work.
CoC is the user own will. those who has CoC are often shine and their personality is shown to us. Chinjao and Kaido both said there are so many conquerors on the sea. it doesn't mean all of them will become Pirate King or WSS... the term born with it does not mean his/her parent had it. there are characters who their parents looks weak compared to them. take Doffy for example. His character and his personality is shaped to unlock CoC regardless of their parent. so what Garp says here doesn't mean inheriting. But fate shaped "this" individual to be someone who can compete.

So its unfair to say to anyone that they didn't work hard. Look at Ace and Hancock. Ace worked so hard and he was born with CoC but he died. He didn't become what he wanted to become. Hancock worked so hard to achieve her status but her fate now?..

In the end Luffy and Zoro worked so hard to get to where they are at now.
Jeez you Zoro and Sanji fans never cease to entertain :ihaha:

Actual Zoro and Sanji would be so proud of their fandoms going at it even harder than they do tbh:zosmug::stealthblack:
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Zoro has CoC, which according to Garp you have to be born with.

Now if Adv CoC becomes a major power up for Zoro and it contributes to him being WSS, the notion that he trained hard for everything goes out the window because he was literally born with CoC in the first place lol.

It also means becoming WSS would be significantly harder for a person who wasn’t born with CoC lol
There will NEVER be a WSS without Conqueror's Haki.. YOU CANNOT HAVE THAT BIG OF AN AMBITION/DREAM and not have CoC. CoC is proof you are born to be a conqueror and that includes conquering the title of world's strongest swordsman.