Questions & Mysteries After Gojo and Sukuna who is the next best CQC fighter in the JJK verse?

[MUUGEN]

They can't.

They didn't fight 15 finger Sukuna. They fought a Sukuna that was maybe at 1.5 fingers(that was his stated output levels).

Again, he was stated to be at roughly 10% of his actual full capacity.

At actual full strength he could kill someone like Ryu, who could go toe to toe with freaking Yuta, in a single instant.

Unless you guys think that Yuji somehow went from pissing and shitting his pants at the idea of fighting Yuta and getting completely overwhelmed by a partially manifested Rika to somehow significantly stronger than Yuta, I think its super obvious that Sukuna's statements make very clear he was fighting at roughly 10% of his full power when he fought Maki and Yuji.

your debate is Yuta would get bodied in an instant yett the kid fought 3v1 against 3 special grade caliber CS/Sorcerers while defeating all 3 and not even having to kill them all and forcing them into submission.

meanwhile you want to state 15finger Megkuna was 1.5 fingers when it was only in direct correlation to his Curse Energy Output more so when it was only being directed directly at Maki and Yuji, funny though you had to go and edit your post cause ConQ bodied you already but here ill add on to it:


lol mate are you even reading the story?

100 chapters ago Yutas presence was so overwhelming to Yuji that he thought it was Gojo's then died in the process. Let me state that again Yuji was killed by Yuta directly in a low diffed manner:

Spoiler: Enter, Yuta!

Immediately Choso tells Yuji to run away, its not cause of Naoya but because Yuta. The "fight" between Yuta and Yuji lasted one full chapter, where it was Yuta chasing down Yuji slightly longer than Sukuna vs Kashimo & this was barely using Rika this was base Yuta with his sword and nothing more, hell when Rika came out Yuji was so weak that he couldn't even move away from her, then the guy went on to casually one shot Choso after he killed Yuji which was a Special Grade 1 level death painting.....

Spoiler: Yuji Dies

we can circle back to this and go off what Yuta states about Yuji holding back 'cause hes unsure if he wants to live regardless the fact remains Yuta would have still low diffed him in the end. Now fast forward to about what 2 weeks irl time in the story 10/31 Shibuya --> 11/12 Enter Culling games Yuji, Megumi, Hakari and Panda ---> what less than a weeks time Megkuna appears:

Spoiler: Megkuna on his Power

From TCB but since you like the Viz Translations the only difference is "capacity to suppress" which Viz states as "tolerance to withstand" & "full control over his body" to "certain control over his flesh" - i prefer to go with TCB but 98% of the time its updated to Viz officials unless bad wording as the dont even call limitless, limitless on Viz..... regardless we have Sukuna directly telling the audience that he has fully taken over Megumis body here:

now right after the separation Yuji had a sudden surge of increased strength as even Sukuna comments on it while also mentioning Yuji is another product of Kenjaku while also refering to him as a weakling who clings to life:

meanwhile the first sign of Sukunas struggle with Megumi:

once again TCB while Viz states "CEO is low"

then we have a further explanation of CEO and the limitations Sukuna has:

again TCB meanwhile Viz states "my CE is fluctuating at it's lowest it's under 10%.. but physical movement seems to be fine"

up to this point there still is zero discussion outside of Curse Energy Output once again Sukuna is only referring to his CEO and nothing further than that which he then claims at being restricted he states "anyway I shouldn't have any trouble killing this kid" VIz official translation TCB scan:

meanwhile in the next panel after stated he'd slaughter Yuji no problem he does nod Maki as being someone who wouldn't be easy to take down, this is the same Maki that had just previously struggled against Curse Naoya and had to get the plot armor of a lifetime from 2 randoms we have never seen since then to be on a level to fight Special Grades, this is the same Maki who had to fight 1 Special Grade Curse in a 4v1 4 sorcerers vs 1 SGC, meanwhile you had Yuta fight 3 SG one who wielded the highest CE output from anyone in the CG another who was relatively close and compared to Yoruzu and lived through the Heinan Era.. & a registered Cockroach Curse oh yeah & i forgot to mention just prior to this fight Yuta went and one shot Dhruv Lakdawalla who was originally apart of the 4 way deadlock and had the hoghest points from the 4 in Sendai: 1on1 Special Grade vs Special Grade Yuta neg diffed a SG without the use of Rika... so once again Yuta solo'd 4 SG caliber fighters meanwhile Maki the same one as above needed the help of 3 others to fight 1 SG... but back to the 15 finger Sukuna debate:

Viz officials "this body resist me and drops curse energy output when im hurting it's allies.." once again only when it comes to Yuji and Maki specifically Spider's Thread Cleave is full 15 finger 100% output hence why he attacks the floor and not them directly and so are all his CQC hits that is 15 finger Sukuna:

so in conclusion mate this like 2 minute skirmish that was simply Megkuna getting used to his new body and toying around with Maki and Yuji he was at 15 fingers but his curse energy output while targeting Maki and Yuji directly was the only thing affected. & at the end of the day no Yuta does not does not die instantly and neither does Yuki. Yuki is at least 5x stronger than Maki in pure CQC and that's me being generous I mean just look at how bad she bodied Kenjaku now Maki would get negged by that same Yuki who fought Ken-Chan if she connected that same inital punch but what do I know....

yawn.

 

[zenox]

after recent chapters
its def kashimo

 

[JazzMazz]

Wait what? Huh?
Yuta neg diffs Yuji don't get it twisted.

Not if Yuji is able to match up to 15 finger Sukuna physically.

Again, 15 finger Sukuna negged a guy who was physically on par if not stronger than Yuta and comparable to Rika in close quarters. If Yuji can match up to that at all, than he is automatically on the level of Yuta and Rika physically.

TCB here...

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm referring to the instance where he actually gives the 10% figure earlier in the chapter.

Hold up... run me through your logic again? I'm not following one bit.

Yuta and Hakari both state that they've taken a hit from Gojo with infinity. Not a serious hit from Gojo, but hit, and they both couldn't handle it at all(they both literally vomitted from a nonserious infinite enhanced punch).

What do you think would happen if Gojo actually had hit them seriously with an infinity enhanced punch? I don't think they would have been able to recover from it. Maybe Hakari with his automatic RCT(even then, Gojo's punch is so strong that even healing with RCT doesn't heal all the pain according to Uraume), but Yuta would probably be beaten in one hit.

Post automatically merged: Oct 12, 2023

your debate is Yuta would get bodied in an instant yett the kid fought 3v1 against 3 special grade caliber CS/Sorcerers while defeating all 3 and not even having to kill them all and forcing them into submission.

That fight wasn't a 3 v 1. It was a free for all where the characters fought with and against each other fluidly. For example, when it looked like Yuta was vulnerable, Ryu and Uro would pretty much team up against him(although Ryu really didn't like Uro interferring in his fight), but when Uro was vulnerable, literally everyone teamed up against her to put her down for the count. There were definitely points where Yuta was fighting Uro and Ryu pretty much 2 v 1, but the most notable instance of that was really when he brought out Rika and could really handle them 2 v 2(Yuta + Rika).

Spoiler

I'll say this much. That fight, is probably my favourite fight in the entire series. The only one I think comes close is Todo and Yuji vs Mahito. After buying the physical copy, the flow of the action and strategy, the exploration of character motivations, and the scale of the straight forward but very visually compelling abilities make it a fantastic battle with lots of fun twists and turns.

I'll also say, as much as like Ryu and Uro(with Ryu being one of my favourite characters in the entire series lol), I don't think they are quite strong enough to be classified as special grade sorcerers, though I do think they are pretty close. For me, something that diminshes them in my opinion is the fact that neither of them appear to have RCT, which is something that the other special grade sorcerers we've seen all appear to have(I'm not sure if we ever saw Geto before possession use RCT, though given the damage Yuta and Rika did to him, I don't think RCT would have helped him that much since RCT for heavy damage like that is really difficult). At best, its implied that Uro can use reverse cursed technique, but I don't think we ever actually see her use it.

Spoiler

Ryu makes it sound like Uro can use RCT but we never actually see her use it.

Ryu doesn't ever act like he has RCT himself.

Ryu and Uro are definitely really strong, with both of them being able to match up to Yuta and Rika in close quarters.

Spoiler

Hell, Ryu was almost overpowering Yuta in close quarters at several points, and was even shown to be capable of destroying Rika with a single punch that was too much even for a fully manifested Rika.

One of the things I'm sort of clinging to is seeing Yuta's domain expansion, and maybe seeing if he can copy the domains of techniques he has copied.(I really really want to see Ryu and Uro's domain)

In saying that though, Yuta may not have been going for the kill against Uro and Ryu, but I don't think that suggests he was holding back much. If he was holding back, it would that he wasn't using much in the way of weapons against them and was mainly fighting them hand to hand.

If I were to give an estimate to the sort of level of Ryu, Uro and Kurourushi, it would be roughly on the level of the stronger disaster curses. Namely just Jogo. In fact, I think you could probably argue that Jogo is stronger than both Ryu and Uro. At the very least Uro. This is based on the fact that Sukuna directly compared Jogo to the sorcerers he fought 1000 years ago(which is from Uro's time). Hell, Sukuna wiped out two squads as strong as the ones Uro was in charge of.

Spoiler

I don't think that Kurourushi showed anything particularly special in comparison to the disaster curses. Despite that, and this was partially a match up thing, Uro considered Kurourushi and his ability a larger threat than Yuta to the point she instantly shifted focus away from Yuta to focus on Kurourushi.

As for how Yuta compares to Sukuna, I think its very obvious that Yuta is nothing in comparison to Sukuna at 15 fingers. Just comparing the reaction of Ryu and Uro to Yuta, a character they thought they could beat and weren't particularly impressed by to Sukuna is night and day.

Spoiler

Ryu is somehow who physically is more than capable of going toe to toe with Sukuna. When he fought Sukuna, he was so completely outclassed he lost after a single serious attack.

I have no reason to believe that 15 finger Sukuna wouldn't be able to do the same to Yuta considering that Ryu physically was not that much weaker than Yuta at all.

Spoiler

Post automatically merged: Oct 12, 2023

so in conclusion mate this like 2 minute skirmish that was simply Megkuna getting used to his new body and toying around with Maki and Yuji he was at 15 fingers but his curse energy output while targeting Maki and Yuji directly was the only thing affected. & at the end of the day no Yuta does not does not die instantly and neither does Yuki. Yuki is at least 5x stronger than Maki in pure CQC and that's me being generous I mean just look at how bad she bodied Kenjaku now Maki would get negged by that same Yuki who fought Ken-Chan if she connected that same inital punch but what do I know....

yawn.

I have no idea why you think that Yuki is so much stronger than Maki. In a 2 v 1 with Choso supporting her she was unable to beat Kenjaku in close quarters.

Yuki is someone only on Yuta's level, which is again, nothing to 15 finger Sukuna based on how effortlessly 15 Sukuna slaughtered someone that was able to keep up with Yuta.

 

[ConquistadoR]

Not if Yuji is able to match up to 15 finger Sukuna physically.

When Sukuna was toying with him lol. Sukuna literally said it, "if something entertains him, he'll throw it a bone."
That doesn't make Yuji anywhere near 15 F Sukuna level before these new Powerups.

Again, 15 finger Sukuna negged a guy who was physically on par if not stronger than Yuta and comparable to Rika in close quarters. If Yuji can match up to that at all, than he is automatically on the level of Yuta and Rika physically.

15 Finger Sukuna one-shot the guy when he was using his Cursed Technique at Normal Output.
Yuji never physically "matched" Sukuna at his best, he only matched him when Sukuna was entertaining him & Sukuna even said that EVEN with his Output dropped to 1.5 Finger, he will still comfortably slaughter Yuji.

Yuta, Maki & Hakari are just built different.
Yuji can't even free himself from Rika's hold & he got Neg Diff'd in the canon by Yuta after shitting his pants when Yuta showed up.

Yeah, I'm referring to the instance where he actually gives the 10% figure earlier in the chapter.

Remind me again, why does he talk about the 10% in that scene?
After he used his Cursed Technique against Yuji & realized his output was being dampened, not before that.

Yuta and Hakari both state that they've taken a hit from Gojo with infinity. Not a serious hit from Gojo, but hit, and they both couldn't handle it at all(they both literally vomitted from a nonserious infinite enhanced punch).

What do you think would happen if Gojo actually had hit them seriously with an infinity enhanced punch? I don't think they would have been able to recover from it. Maybe Hakari with his automatic RCT(even then, Gojo's punch is so strong that even healing with RCT doesn't heal all the pain according to Uraume), but Yuta would probably be beaten in one hit.

Gojo one shots anyone who is not Sukuna. That isn't the discussion here.

 

[Ven437]

It's 15 Finger Sukuna with Cursed Technique Output of 1.5 Finger Sukuna.

Don't trust Viz for JJK, we suffer from a Translator who doesn't even read the manga he is translating & is erratic with translations.

We got Lightning for Ch. 236 (same person who does these TL notes), maybe the most controversial chapter of JJK, when the bum Werry was out and the difference in quality was night and day. Readers saying it was the ONLY saving grace of 236 that we had such a good translator for it lmfao.

Then 237 drops, we get Bum Werry again and then his “Yep! Sure is!” “Supreme Martial Solution” “creepy kid” shit. I cannot imagine what kind of shit Werry would do in 236 it would’ve turned the chapter from stinky to Gojo fans to a pile of turd.

 

[MUUGEN]

I'll first start off by saying that I dont need you to copy pasta the entirety of a fight and not even follow the panels you post just basic points you're trying to make to match your panels is fine, you're also pretty sporadic jumping around all over the place.

That fight wasn't a 3 v 1. It was a free for all where the characters fought with and against each other fluidly. For example, when it looked like Yuta was vulnerable, Ryu and Uro would pretty much team up against him(although Ryu really didn't like Uro interferring in his fight), but when Uro was vulnerable, literally everyone teamed up against her to put her down for the count. There were definitely points where Yuta was fighting Uro and Ryu pretty much 2 v 1, but the most notable instance of that was really when he brought out Rika and could really handle them 2 v 2(Yuta + Rika).

regardless Yuta went and solo'd all 4 of the Special Grades who deadlocked Sendai Colony..

one shotting the first then went onto not even needing Rika for Cockroach Special Grade, only needing until he had to face Ryu and Uro combined. If it was all 1on1 Yuta probably could've handled all 4 without the help of Rika. It was a free for all yes but Yuta was the one who was the most heavily focused out of the 4.

I'll also say, as much as like Ryu and Uro(with Ryu being one of my favourite characters in the entire series lol), I don't think they are quite strong enough to be classified as special grade sorcerers, though I do think they are pretty close. For me, something that diminshes them in my opinion is the fact that neither of them appear to have RCT, which is something that the other special grade sorcerers we've seen all appear to have(I'm not sure if we ever saw Geto before possession use RCT, though given the damage Yuta and Rika did to him, I don't think RCT would have helped him that much since RCT for heavy damage like that is really difficult). At best, its implied that Uro can use reverse cursed technique, but I don't think we ever actually see her use it.

Spoiler

Ryu makes it sound like Uro can use RCT but we never actually see her use it.

Ryu doesn't ever act like he has RCT himself.

The reason why you think they are "weak" is due to how strong Yuta is in comparison to them, there is a reason why he is listed as second only to Gojo. We'll put it this way could Naoya or any S[ecial Grade 1 or someone like Todo, Yaga or Nanami come close to beating Uro or Ryu in a ffa or better yet a 1on? The answer is no with the exceptio of Todo due to his experience in fighting Special Grades but we saw the treatment he got along with Nanami against Mahito and the same treatment Naoya got with Choso who I dont really consider a Special Grade or the way Dagon treated Naobito the head of the Zen'in clan.. Naobito alone even stated 2 SG1 weren't enough to exorcise Dagon alone. That goes to show the level and status of Special Grades where curses are inherently weaker than their counterparts.

We don't know whether they do or do not have RCT as they didnt necessarily need to use it and they already displayed Domain Expansion which we've only really seen outside of Special Grade and Caliber has been Megumi and Higuruma whos Domain is directly tied to their CT, that alone is a feat in itself that has only been displayed by Special Grades to begin with, so your part of Ryu and Uro not being SG is debunked while RCT is actually rare overall in the world of JJK and only a handful have shown off this feat.

Geto has neither displayed RCT nor a Domain Expansion and he was at one point considered the strongest alongside Gojo and a Special Grade..

We dont need to see them use it as they are Special Grades as Ryu had/has one of the highest pure curse energy outputs factually stated and shown and Uro was the supreme commander of the sun, moon and star squad during the heinan era, let me repeat during the heinan era the strongest period for JJK. & yes Uro has RCT as Ryu clearly stated as much when she lost a limb that its not easy to fully recover it for a RCT user...

Ryu and Uro are definitely really strong, with both of them being able to match up to Yuta and Rika in close quarters.

Yes they are extremely strong, strong enough to be considered Special Grade Sorcerers not just cause of their CT but due to their physicality in both offense and defense from their AP/DC and their Endurance and Durability feats that were shown.

Hell, Ryu was almost overpowering Yuta in close quarters at several points, and was even shown to be capable of destroying Rika with a single punch that was too much even for a fully manifested Rika.

One of the things I'm sort of clinging to is seeing Yuta's domain expansion, and maybe seeing if he can copy the domains of techniques he has copied.(I really really want to see Ryu and Uro's domain)

so how can you say in the same breath Ryu is weak and isnt a SG yet was overpowering a SG who is stated to be 2nd only to Gojo meanwhile Ryu was stated to have the highest output in history and was clearly stated to have a higher output than even Yuta... he wasn't capable of destroying a fully manifested Rika she was already at her time limit where he was able to land another blow and she was disappearing.

Yutas domain will be shown soon enough, all three wouldve been dope to see during that fight but in JJK their are laws to follow and the 3 way deadlock cancelled all sure hit effects while Kuro desgtroyed it from the outside so there was literally nothing to see there.

In saying that though, Yuta may not have been going for the kill against Uro and Ryu, but I don't think that suggests he was holding back much. If he was holding back, it would that he wasn't using much in the way of weapons against them and was mainly fighting them hand to hand.

If I were to give an estimate to the sort of level of Ryu, Uro and Kurourushi, it would be roughly on the level of the stronger disaster curses. Namely just Jogo. In fact, I think you could probably argue that Jogo is stronger than both Ryu and Uro. At the very least Uro. This is based on the fact that Sukuna directly compared Jogo to the sorcerers he fought 1000 years ago(which is from Uro's time). Hell, Sukuna wiped out two squads as strong as the ones Uro was in charge of.

Yuta wasn't intending on killing them for their points but wasn't against it as shown when he fought Kuro and Dhruv. He fought in CQC in order to combat their fighting styles as it was more advantages for him and he was enjoying the thrill of the fight.

Sukuna never fought Uro this much is known as she was killed by someone else not by Sukuna, and Sukuna called Gojo strong while he was unable to even tough him and simply toyed with him due to him giving him fingers to be partially revived just like ConQ stated Sukuna will throw a bone if its to entertain him.

I don't think that Kurourushi showed anything particularly special in comparison to the disaster curses. Despite that, and this was partially a match up thing, Uro considered Kurourushi and his ability a larger threat than Yuta to the point she instantly shifted focus away from Yuta to focus on Kurourushi.

As for how Yuta compares to Sukuna, I think its very obvious that Yuta is nothing in comparison to Sukuna at 15 fingers. Just comparing the reaction of Ryu and Uro to Yuta, a character they thought they could beat and weren't particularly impressed by to Sukuna is night and day.

once again as its been stated in canon that Curses are Weaker than their counterparts SGC are weaker than SGS and SG1C are weaker than SGS and so forth..

Yes it was also stated once again you shouldve read this in the dozens of panels you shared that match up wise due to abilities that Kuro was a bad match up for Uro - hence why JJK has one of the best power systems out there similar to Stands and Nen a weaker opponent can match or even beat a stronger opponent due to stylistic match ups and nothing more.

15 Finger Sukuna compared to Yuta is not as far as you actually think, if Yuta wanted to kill Ryu or Uro in a 1on1 at best they can push Yuta to mid diffs maybe, possibly. You are forgetting Rika is the Queen of Curses the counterpart to Sukuna the King of Curses.

Ryu also thought he could beat Sukuna and so did Kashimo so what does that actually tell you?

Kashimo had no fear in his heart against Sukuna and got negged and Megumi thought he couldnt beat a Finger Bearer or Reggie and look what happened he defeated both...

Yuta clearly showcased a serious Yuta would destroy Ryu and Yuta. He still had anough reserves to continuously using his RCT and CT after even using DE..

Ryu is somehow who physically is more than capable of going toe to toe with Sukuna. When he fought Sukuna, he was so completely outclassed he lost after a single serious attack.

I have no reason to believe that 15 finger Sukuna wouldn't be able to do the same to Yuta considering that Ryu physically was not that much weaker than Yuta at all.

Yes that is Sukuna only interested in fighting Yoruzu and you think if that same serious bloodthirsty non-restrictive Sukuna fought Maki and Yuji they'd be able to survive? No they wouldn't they would've died, I mean Sukuna thought he even killed Yuji with just that punch and then he was ready to actually kill him before Maki showed up then lost all interest in him.

I have no idea why you think that Yuki is so much stronger than Maki. In a 2 v 1 with Choso supporting her she was unable to beat Kenjaku in close quarters.

Yuki is someone only on Yuta's level, which is again, nothing to 15 finger Sukuna based on how effortlessly 15 Sukuna slaughtered someone that was able to keep up with Yuta.

What has Maki done that outclasses Yuki outside of her speed feats?

You do also realize her goal was never to beat Kenjaku it was to force him to release his Domain and Kenjaku himself wasn't even sure if he could beat Yuki in a serious 1on1 while even having a coutner they both realized it would be a difficult fight either way it went....

So Yuki is on Yutas level but Maki is above her which she should also be above Yuta by this logic.

As out of the 4 it should go Gojo>Yuta>Yuki>Geto..

You have yet to disprove your initial point and started rambling in circles tbh

 

[JazzMazz]

When Sukuna was toying with him lol. Sukuna literally said it, "if something entertains him, he'll throw it a bone."
That doesn't make Yuji anywhere near 15 F Sukuna level before these new Powerups.

Sukuna had intended to kill Yuji at that point and mentioned so multiple times. He had lost interest in Yuji at that point and there were several points where he tried to kill Yuji but couldn't due to his fluctuating cursed energy output. I think you could argue that he was more interested in Maki than he was in Yuji at that point.

15 Finger Sukuna one-shot the guy when he was using his Cursed Technique at Normal Output.
Yuji never physically "matched" Sukuna at his best, he only matched him when Sukuna was entertaining him & Sukuna even said that EVEN with his Output dropped to 1.5 Finger, he will still comfortably slaughter Yuji.

Yuta, Maki & Hakari are just built different.
Yuji can't even free himself from Rika's hold & he got Neg Diff'd in the canon by Yuta after shitting his pants when Yuta showed up.

True, I just don't think that Yuta, Maki and Hakari would have been a match for a 15 finger Sukuna with normal output since at 15 fingers Sukuna was already suggested to stalemate a then released Gojo.

Remind me again, why does he talk about the 10% in that scene?
After he used his Cursed Technique against Yuji & realized his output was being dampened, not before that.

He mentions it before at the very beginning of the chapter, but I think it does become clear that he was probably talking about his cursed energy output generally fluctuating, then he notes a specific instance of when his energy or cursed technique fluctuates.

Gojo one shots anyone who is not Sukuna. That isn't the discussion here.

I agree with this.

I think Sukuna being on Gojo's level pretty much does the same if he is seriously trying.

Someone like Kashimo who in his most powerful form had surpassed human physical limitations was still pretty much nothing to a serious Heinan Sukuna.

regardless Yuta went and solo'd all 4 of the Special Grades who deadlocked Sendai Colony..

Again, he didn't solo them. They were nearly as keen in taking each other out as they were in taking out Yuta. Yuta a lot of the time was considered the biggest threat and was ganged up on the most, but when chances arose for them to take each other out, they took it, and Yuta also didn't miss his chance to jump in on a pile up. The most obvious example being Uro, who was taken out by Ryu and not Yuta, and Kuroushi was taken out after being heavily damaged and shifting focus to Ryu the second time around.

It was a free for all.

The reason why you think they are "weak" is due to how strong Yuta is in comparison to them, there is a reason why he is listed as second only to Gojo. We'll put it this way could Naoya or any S[ecial Grade 1 or someone like Todo, Yaga or Nanami come close to beating Uro or Ryu in a ffa or better yet a 1on? The answer is no with the exceptio of Todo due to his experience in fighting Special Grades but we saw the treatment he got along with Nanami against Mahito and the same treatment Naoya got with Choso who I dont really consider a Special Grade or the way Dagon treated Naobito the head of the Zen'in clan.. Naobito alone even stated 2 SG1 weren't enough to exorcise Dagon alone. That goes to show the level and status of Special Grades where curses are inherently weaker than their counterparts.

Its worth noting that the disaster curses were super strong even in comparison to other regular cursed spirits.


Its actually the expectation that a 1st grade sorcerer would normally be able to deal with a special grade cursed spirit. I think this is actually demonstrated pretty well in Mei Mei's battle, where she was able to pretty effectively excorcise a special grade cursed spirit.

Todo was also able to excorcize a special grade cursed spirit by himself while I don't think he would be able to excorcize any of the disaster curses by himself.

I will say that most 1st grade sorcerers outside maybe Higuruma, whose Domain Expansion might actually pretty effective against Uro(since his taking away of cursed techniques also effects cursed energy control generally), though I think it would be less effective against Ryu(Ryu's output is unaffected by whether he is using his cursed technique or not, so him losing his cursed technique to something like confiscation probably wouldn't dramatically effect his cursed energy control).

As for where I put Ryu and Uro in terms of strength. I'd say that they are actually fairly close to a disaster curse like Jogo in terms of ability. This is based on Sukuna's assessment of Jogo's strength, where he compared him favourably to sorcerers from 1000 years ago(like Uro).

I'm just unsure whether being on someone like Jogo's level would necessarily mean them being classified as a special grade sorcerer.

We don't know whether they do or do not have RCT as they didnt necessarily need to use it and they already displayed Domain Expansion which we've only really seen outside of Special Grade and Caliber has been Megumi and Higuruma whos Domain is directly tied to their CT, that alone is a feat in itself that has only been displayed by Special Grades to begin with, so your part of Ryu and Uro not being SG is debunked while RCT is actually rare overall in the world of JJK and only a handful have shown off this feat.

Geto has neither displayed RCT nor a Domain Expansion and he was at one point considered the strongest alongside Gojo and a Special Grade..

We dont need to see them use it as they are Special Grades as Ryu had/has one of the highest pure curse energy outputs factually stated and shown and Uro was the supreme commander of the sun, moon and star squad during the heinan era, let me repeat during the heinan era the strongest period for JJK. & yes Uro has RCT as Ryu clearly stated as much when she lost a limb that its not easy to fully recover it for a RCT user...

Yes they are extremely strong, strong enough to be considered Special Grade Sorcerers not just cause of their CT but due to their physicality in both offense and defense from their AP/DC and their Endurance and Durability feats that were shown.

I do agree that Ryu and Uro in terms of ability are on the higher end of the special grade cursed spirits we've seen, namely Jogo, but I'm hesitant to say whether that would make them considered a special grade sorcerer(though I do think you could make arguments for it, I'm still undecided).

so how can you say in the same breath Ryu is weak and isnt a SG yet was overpowering a SG who is stated to be 2nd only to Gojo meanwhile Ryu was stated to have the highest output in history and was clearly stated to have a higher output than even Yuta... he wasn't capable of destroying a fully manifested Rika she was already at her time limit where he was able to land another blow and she was disappearing.

Ryu is definitely a physical match for Yuta but I'm not sure being able to match up to Yuta in physical combat and overpowering him in combat would necessarily make him a special grade sorcerer, since that is a very specific thing.

I think you could make a solid argument. Hell, you could make a really solid argument for Drhuv as well since he actually did take over a country, but I'm undecided personally.

I think I'll need to see various translations, but what I got is that even though Ryu destroyed a Rika that was nearing an end to its connection to Yuta, Ryu's punch would have destroyed even a fully manifested Rika. Again, wonder how that sounds in different translations, but thats the implication I got from the Viz translation of the narration.

Yutas domain will be shown soon enough, all three wouldve been dope to see during that fight but in JJK their are laws to follow and the 3 way deadlock cancelled all sure hit effects while Kuro desgtroyed it from the outside so there was literally nothing to see there.

Yeah, its a bit disappointing we got jebaited with a 3 way domain expansion battle.

Its also funny we didn't even see Hanami's domain despite knowing they had one. I think its fairly easy to guess what Hanami's domain would have looked like aesthetically at least(something like Dagon's, in the sense it would probably be quite calming and relaxing, but inside a flower field instead of a beach). Not sure what Hanami's sure hit would be though.

Yuta wasn't intending on killing them for their points but wasn't against it as shown when he fought Kuro and Dhruv. He fought in CQC in order to combat their fighting styles as it was more advantages for him and he was enjoying the thrill of the fight.

Yuta isn't the type to enjoy fighting. He did indulge Ryu in the last chapter of the fight though, but Yuta personally doesn't get much from fighting.

What I'm more so saying is that while Yuta wasn't necessarily holding back his true strength, he wasn't using the most deadly tools available to deal with Uro and Ryu, instead opting to fight hand to hand.

For example, he didn't use his sword against Ryu and Uro, even though there were points where his blade might have allowed him to end the fight quicker. Take for example when he fought Uro alongside Rika. After using cursed speech to freeze Uro in place, he probably could have finished her with a blade or another lethal weapon if he wanted to. Hell, even Ryu seemed to call him out on that, saying that Yuta was too soft.

Sukuna never fought Uro this much is known as she was killed by someone else not by Sukuna, and Sukuna called Gojo strong while he was unable to even tough him and simply toyed with him due to him giving him fingers to be partially revived just like ConQ stated Sukuna will throw a bone if its to entertain him.

Sukuna never fought Uro, but he did fight and demolish both Uro's squad, and a squad on par with Uro's squad, so Sukuna has definitely fought sorcerers on Uro's level and easily come out on top.

Uro was executed after being blamed for the murder of an official.

Gojo was likely the strongest fighter Sukuna had ever defeated based on the fact that Gojo is probably the only sorcerer to ever make Sukuna worried based on this narration.

Spoiler

Sukuna didn't use everything against Gojo, but I think its clearly implied that the sorcerers from 1000 years ago didn't ever make Sukuna worried.

once again as its been stated in canon that Curses are Weaker than their counterparts SGC are weaker than SGS and SG1C are weaker than SGS and so forth..

I'm completely aware of this fact. Its why I'm slightly hesitant to say that Uro and Ryu are definitely special grade sorcerers even though they are definitely on par with if not stronger than some of the strongest special grade curses.

Yes it was also stated once again you shouldve read this in the dozens of panels you shared that match up wise due to abilities that Kuro was a bad match up for Uro - hence why JJK has one of the best power systems out there similar to Stands and Nen a weaker opponent can match or even beat a stronger opponent due to stylistic match ups and nothing more.

True, I agree on this, but I think it does show a limit to Uro's capabilities in the sense that she is not so far above a special grade curse that she'd have no reason to worry about them.

It does make me think about how she'd fair against the disaster curses who in many ways are more versatile than Kuroushi.

15 Finger Sukuna compared to Yuta is not as far as you actually think, if Yuta wanted to kill Ryu or Uro in a 1on1 at best they can push Yuta to mid diffs maybe, possibly. You are forgetting Rika is the Queen of Curses the counterpart to Sukuna the King of Curses.

I think it depends on the situation. Like, even though they both were aware that their sure hits weren't going to work in a domain clash, they were both incredibly confident that they would have a solid chance against Yuta in a domain clash(without Rika present). This raises another question though. Rika can fire without Yuta being next to her, and Yuta can Domain expansion without Rika being near him, would Rika be able to use Yuta's domain expansion seperately from Yuta or would Yuta need to give that specific demand?

And again, even though I agree that Yuta would be able to beat Ryu and Uro seperately, especially working together with Rika, the fact that either of them were physically comparable to Yuta at all puts him a huge level below Sukuna.

Hell, Gege himself doesn't hesitate to make clear that Sukuna would 100% beat Rika.

Ryu also thought he could beat Sukuna and so did Kashimo so what does that actually tell you?

Its very clear Ryu did not think he could beat Sukuna. That man was absolutely crapping his pants at facing Sukuna. We don't get any introspection for why he decided to fight Sukuna(I'm just going to put it down to Gege being a not great writer who just wanted to show off how strong Sukuna was), but its very clear just from the way he reacts to Sukuna initially that he holds Sukuna in a completely different regard to Yuta.

While he is cool confident and collected against Yuta, he immediately craps the bed after feeling Sukuna's presence, and is instantly outmatched by even a non-serious Sukuna, and loses so quickly against a Sukuna that fights seriousl that he can't even get off a single attack much less keep up with Sukuna's speed.

That is a massive difference in comparison to his battle with Yuta.

Even if Yuta could have gone for more lethal options, nothing suggests that he was holding back in such a way that he'd be able to instantly speed blitz and kill someone like Ryu before he could get off an attack.

Ryu also thought he could beat Sukuna and so did Kashimo so what does that actually tell you?

I don't think Kashimo thought he'd be able to beat Sukuna. I think he just wanted to test himself against the greatest sorcerer in history.

Kashimo had no fear in his heart against Sukuna and got negged and Megumi thought he couldnt beat a Finger Bearer or Reggie and look what happened he defeated both...

Kashimo was more than prepared to lose his life. He was just expecting Sukuna to help him understand his own deep rooted questions around strength before he lost.

Yuta clearly showcased a serious Yuta would destroy Ryu and Yuta. He still had anough reserves to continuously using his RCT and CT after even using DE..

Not really.

Again, Yuta could have won if he'd gone for more lethal options, like using his sword against Ryu and Uro, but that doesn't change the fact that either of them were still strong enough to keep up with him in a head on physical fight, while their physical prowess was completely outclassed by a non-serious 15 finger Sukuna, and Uro and Ryu were completely terrified of 15 finger Sukuna while being decently confident while fighting Yuta despite seeing what he was capable of with Rika by his side.

Yes that is Sukuna only interested in fighting Yoruzu and you think if that same serious bloodthirsty non-restrictive Sukuna fought Maki and Yuji they'd be able to survive? No they wouldn't they would've died, I mean Sukuna thought he even killed Yuji with just that punch and then he was ready to actually kill him before Maki showed up then lost all interest in him.

I think the only thing that saved them was the fact his form was incomplete. His output was fluctuating generally, but especially when he went to attack Megumi's comrades.

What has Maki done that outclasses Yuki outside of her speed feats?

You do also realize her goal was never to beat Kenjaku it was to force him to release his Domain and Kenjaku himself wasn't even sure if he could beat Yuki in a serious 1on1 while even having a coutner they both realized it would be a difficult fight either way it went....

The reason they wanted him to release his domain was so that Tengen could destroy it, and they could capitalize on it by taking on Kenjaku who was unable to use his cursed techniques after domain expansion.

So yes, they were trying to defeat him, they were simply strategizing about the best way to do so.

So Yuki is on Yutas level but Maki is above her which she should also be above Yuta by this logic.

No, I'm saying that Maki physically is faster and tougher than Yuki, but Yuki has several advantages over Maki like "mass" and RCT as well as domain expansion which put her on a level above Maki.

As out of the 4 it should go Gojo>Yuta>Yuki>Geto..

You have yet to disprove your initial point and started rambling in circles tbh

Actually, its a bit of a toss up with that.

Its stated several times that Geto should have been able to beat Yuta if he hadn't divided up his forces.

So based on Kenjaku's on statements it would be Gojo>>> Geto > Yuta > Yuki.

The reason I think that Kenjaku wasn't completely confident against Yuki initially was match up, but he quickly turned the situation around to the point where he pretty much annihilated Yuki in what had become a 3 v 1 situation(with Tengen stepping in more than once, and Choso nearly landing a finishing hit on Kenjaku at one point). By the end of the fight, Kenjaku was treating the situation like a nice warm up.

 

[Goodman Grey]

Maki winning

 

[Ven437]

Maki winning

Maki objectively has more and better CQC feats than Toji yet somehow he is getting the most votes, Agenda Kaisen never fails to entertain.

Not to worry though she one of the major heavy fighters alongside Yuta and Yuji with most development. Buying those three stocks right now will be nothing but jackpot. :cheers:

 

[JazzMazz]

I still don't see how Toji or Maki are winning when you have Kashimo with his CT use right there. He literally surpassed the human physical limitations that still confine characters like Toji and Maki.

 

[Desa]

Considering how many time Kashimo managed to kill a guy of similar level that had immortality I consider him the best in close quater.


I dont really consider gojo or Sukana to be more skilled at close quarter combatant than someone like Toji. Just have so much more power that skill kinda become irrelevant.

 

[ConquistadoR]

Sukuna had intended to kill Yuji at that point and mentioned so multiple times. He had lost interest in Yuji at that point and there were several points where he tried to kill Yuji but couldn't due to his fluctuating cursed energy output. I think you could argue that he was more interested in Maki than he was in Yuji at that point.

Exactly, he only realizes that his CE output is fluctuating when he uses his CT to kill Yuji but fails to do so.
Before that it's just some panels of him entertaining Yuji.
That doesn't mean Yuji is stronger than Yuta/Maki/Hakari because they can very well tango with Sukuna if he's just entertaining them.

Sukuna/Gojo tier characters can OS anyone else if they want to.
They'll usually entertain them for a while though, that doesn't mean these weaklings share relativity with those guys.

True, I just don't think that Yuta, Maki and Hakari would have been a match for a 15 finger Sukuna with normal output since at 15 fingers Sukuna was already suggested to stalemate a then released Gojo.

That point isn't the discussion here, you are assuming Sukuna is fighting with his everything in every fight.
What Maki & Yuji fought there was 15 Finger Sukuna, just with his CT levels turned down.
It's like a common agreement that Viz fucked it up there in T/L among the fandom.

Sukuna can obviously do a whole lot more & shit on them whenever he wishes to.