General & Others Are we expecting too much from a Shonen series?
Aye, those two are a bit of a sticking point actually.
Luffy’s motivation towards his dream are actually quite hollow. I have discussed this before in the Critics’ Club.
To be fair, the above could even have been sorted out later in the story through Luffy’s experiences on the seas shaping his perception of the world he lives in which in turn leads to Luffy finding new reasons and motivations towards achieving his goal.
As it stands however, Luffy’s motivation can be summed up as such. As for adventure, that aspect of One Piece is almost completely dead.
Pre-TS was an era of adventure full of twists and turns, where the reader often had no idea where they would be going to next, what the places they were going to looked like or even who was going to be the major antagonist.
Post-TS is mostly a check list of places to go to, folk to meet n’ beat and major antagonists we have known about for years. We often know where we are going, what it looks like and who the major antagonist will be and what they look like years in advance.
Can you imagine seeing Skypiea and Enel while we are still at Jaya? Can you imagine knowing that we would be going to Thriller Bark while we are still at Long Ring Island? Can you imagine knowing that we would be going to Amazon Lily and knowing exactly what it is going to be like while we are still at the beginning of the Grand Line?
The above is what Pre-TS would be like if we followed Post-TS logic. One Piece has become the adventure manga that lacks adventure.
Tis tragic.
Luffy’s motivation towards his dream are actually quite hollow. I have discussed this before in the Critics’ Club.
Just putting the contents of a post of mine here since the thread it was on got locked and I can no longer quote it. Besides, this thread looks like it is need of some activity.
I find one of the biggest problems with Luffy’s character in general, is that his motivation is not truly fleshed out and at times seems rather hollow.
His goal is to be Pirate King because of two supposed reasons;
I) The promise between him and Shanks.
II) Luffy perceives the Pirate King as the individual with the most freedom.
Before this, Luffy only stated that he had intentions of becoming a pirate in general, a pirate under Shanks at that.
This means that Luffy basically declared his intention to be Pirate King because Shanks refused to allow him on his crew and triggered him.
As for Shanks, he only states that Luffy should return the hat to him when he is “a great pirate”.
In short, Luffy’s motivation regarding his desire to be Pirate King is actually quite shallow. The promise between him and Shanks also fails to establish why Luffy desired to be a pirate in the first place.
Ultimately, the first thing that would need to be fixed before anything else is a proper, established character motivation and an explanation as to why Luffy desired to be a pirate from a young age and why he desires to be the Pirate King specifically.
Edit: The spoiler tags are flipping out on me and I have no idea why. Lol.
Edited edit: MangaSee images are not permanent, so I have replaced them.
I find one of the biggest problems with Luffy’s character in general, is that his motivation is not truly fleshed out and at times seems rather hollow.
His goal is to be Pirate King because of two supposed reasons;
I) The promise between him and Shanks.
II) Luffy perceives the Pirate King as the individual with the most freedom.
The problem with reason number one is that Luffy made the declaration of becoming the Pirate King before he made the promise to Shanks.
As for Shanks, he only states that Luffy should return the hat to him when he is “a great pirate”.
The greatest problem with this supposed reason is very simple.
At no point has Luffy ever established his opinion on what exactly he perceives “freedom” to be.
If one were to generalize the concept of “freedom” then you would find two basic types.
I) Freedom from. This is the desire to leave behind that which one deems obstructive to one’s happiness/quality of life in some way.
II) Freedom to. This is the desire to do what one seeks to achieve in life which in turn will contribute to one’s happiness/quality of life.
These may seem similar but they are different.
For example, through being a pirate, Luffy is no longer bound by any law of any nation thus he has freedom to do anything he pleases.
However, in becoming a pirate, Luffy is now unwelcome in most civilized territories and is consistently hounded by the Navy and bounty hunters. As captain he is also responsible for the burden of protecting his crew and giving the final order on what course of action to take. Benn Beckman pointed this out to Luffy (albeit somewhat jokingly since Luffy was a child at the time).
In short, Luffy has denied himself freedom from both increased responsibility and the entire judicial/law enforcement system.
The problem with all this is that all Luffy sought to do is have nakama and adventure which he could have done without being a pirate.
So why did Luffy desire to become a pirate?
When he lived with the mountain bandits he was completely free from any and all typical societal responsibilities. The World Government did not even know of his existence. So what was there for him to seek freedom from?
All Luffy has ever stated to desire (beside the tenuous goal of becoming the Pirate King) is a loyal crew and adventure. The thing is, there is no law or societal responsibility preventing Luffy from doing this legally.
For example, Montblanc Noland was a famous adventurer, funded by governments to find new land with the assistance of a loyal crew. In fact, even becoming a Marine would have allowed for both adventure and a loyal crew. So what freedom to was Luffy seeking?
Again, why did he desire to become a pirate?
Also, why does he perceive the Pirate King to be the “man with the most freedom” when seeking such a title means upholding a duty to crush any challengers to the title (of which there are many) as well as being the most wanted man in the world thus being hunted down with extreme prejudice by all law enforcement organisations?
If one were to generalize the concept of “freedom” then you would find two basic types.
I) Freedom from. This is the desire to leave behind that which one deems obstructive to one’s happiness/quality of life in some way.
II) Freedom to. This is the desire to do what one seeks to achieve in life which in turn will contribute to one’s happiness/quality of life.
These may seem similar but they are different.
For example, through being a pirate, Luffy is no longer bound by any law of any nation thus he has freedom to do anything he pleases.
However, in becoming a pirate, Luffy is now unwelcome in most civilized territories and is consistently hounded by the Navy and bounty hunters. As captain he is also responsible for the burden of protecting his crew and giving the final order on what course of action to take. Benn Beckman pointed this out to Luffy (albeit somewhat jokingly since Luffy was a child at the time).
The problem with all this is that all Luffy sought to do is have nakama and adventure which he could have done without being a pirate.
So why did Luffy desire to become a pirate?
When he lived with the mountain bandits he was completely free from any and all typical societal responsibilities. The World Government did not even know of his existence. So what was there for him to seek freedom from?
All Luffy has ever stated to desire (beside the tenuous goal of becoming the Pirate King) is a loyal crew and adventure. The thing is, there is no law or societal responsibility preventing Luffy from doing this legally.
For example, Montblanc Noland was a famous adventurer, funded by governments to find new land with the assistance of a loyal crew. In fact, even becoming a Marine would have allowed for both adventure and a loyal crew. So what freedom to was Luffy seeking?
Again, why did he desire to become a pirate?
Also, why does he perceive the Pirate King to be the “man with the most freedom” when seeking such a title means upholding a duty to crush any challengers to the title (of which there are many) as well as being the most wanted man in the world thus being hunted down with extreme prejudice by all law enforcement organisations?
Edit: The spoiler tags are flipping out on me and I have no idea why. Lol.
Edited edit: MangaSee images are not permanent, so I have replaced them.
As it stands however, Luffy’s motivation can be summed up as such. As for adventure, that aspect of One Piece is almost completely dead.
Pre-TS was an era of adventure full of twists and turns, where the reader often had no idea where they would be going to next, what the places they were going to looked like or even who was going to be the major antagonist.
Post-TS is mostly a check list of places to go to, folk to meet n’ beat and major antagonists we have known about for years. We often know where we are going, what it looks like and who the major antagonist will be and what they look like years in advance.
Can you imagine seeing Skypiea and Enel while we are still at Jaya? Can you imagine knowing that we would be going to Thriller Bark while we are still at Long Ring Island? Can you imagine knowing that we would be going to Amazon Lily and knowing exactly what it is going to be like while we are still at the beginning of the Grand Line?
The above is what Pre-TS would be like if we followed Post-TS logic. One Piece has become the adventure manga that lacks adventure.
Tis tragic.
Username checks out.
It’s not really that we’re expecting too much from a shounen and more like We’re expecting too much from Oda’s grand buildup. He won’t be able to deliver great conclusions on all the story lines he’s set up In the time left in the story unless it goes on for another 15 years, IMO.
It’s not really that we’re expecting too much from a shounen and more like We’re expecting too much from Oda’s grand buildup. He won’t be able to deliver great conclusions on all the story lines he’s set up In the time left in the story unless it goes on for another 15 years, IMO.
People ALWAYS expect too much. That's one of the cornerstones of any fandom.
All I ask for are interesting characters, a well written story and interesting locations in One Piece. Fights and power levels don't concern me much, even though the number 1 thing I still ask for in One Piece is a 1v1 Robin fight. For me, the best thing about One Piece is its world building.
I used to think that this forum and the One Piece fandom were the most unreasonable with their "expectations", but then I saw the Cyberpunk 2077 fandom and its Subreddit and oh boy, does it make Worstgen look like a spotless saint.
All I ask for are interesting characters, a well written story and interesting locations in One Piece. Fights and power levels don't concern me much, even though the number 1 thing I still ask for in One Piece is a 1v1 Robin fight. For me, the best thing about One Piece is its world building.
I used to think that this forum and the One Piece fandom were the most unreasonable with their "expectations", but then I saw the Cyberpunk 2077 fandom and its Subreddit and oh boy, does it make Worstgen look like a spotless saint.
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Oh Well in that reguard, Some get a little overzealous, Even I want Third Person View, But I'll settle for a button to press to pop out to look at you're character while stationary.
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Isn't that the game that allows you to customize your genitals? Yeah I wouldn't even bother with that
Funny is how I'm still having trouble imagining him doing it even after that (and trust me, I agree we needed Luffy vs. Katakuri purely for growth reasons)
- He didn't master FS yet
- He got one shotted by Kaido
- He only just learned advanced CoA
- He's extremely overconfident about beating Kaido after having scenes that show him "matching" the Yonko in any way.
- No Awakening at all
- There's a second Yonko on the island
It's the only reason why I'm putting so much stock in Yamato or the "Ace". Personally I feel Luffy needs another villain before these Yonko, but I entirely understand if Oda just makes Luffy strong enough or Kaido goes down in a team effort this arc. I just have some feeling that Rocks is going to be a bigger plot than Wano
- He didn't master FS yet
- He got one shotted by Kaido
- He only just learned advanced CoA
- He's extremely overconfident about beating Kaido after having scenes that show him "matching" the Yonko in any way.
- No Awakening at all
- There's a second Yonko on the island
It's the only reason why I'm putting so much stock in Yamato or the "Ace". Personally I feel Luffy needs another villain before these Yonko, but I entirely understand if Oda just makes Luffy strong enough or Kaido goes down in a team effort this arc. I just have some feeling that Rocks is going to be a bigger plot than Wano
You literally just saw him in 3-4 short scenes post- ts, and in one of them he was calling the gorosei bitches, so hold your horses.
I rather have someone with a mind than thinking 2 yonkou allying is not a problem.
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Regarding the thread, no, shounen is just a vague description of the targez audience, not a sign of quality.
I rather have someone with a mind than thinking 2 yonkou allying is not a problem.
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Regarding the thread, no, shounen is just a vague description of the targez audience, not a sign of quality.
When it comes to Wano and WCI, Wano so far really hasn't been all that dangerous. WCI in the beginning actually felt dangerous compared to the beginning of Wano, you would think that entering a Yonko's territory would be dangerous but so far that hasn't been the case. Wano has been like a vacation for the SHs, you also have the Udon Prison which ended up being a training camp to help Luffy get stronger and now the SHs are about to face two Yonko's and they aren't taking it very seriously.
I completely agree with this.
Luffy vs Katakuri was a last minute addition to the arc because Oda (or maybe an editor) thought that an escape from WCI with no fights would be boring, and more importantly, Luffy wouldn't be doing enough in it. With one eye on Wano and the Kaido fight as well.
For all the complaints with the Wedding Cake, it had to happen. It was clearly set out throughout the arc that it would happen. Emphasis on Sanji's cooking from his family saying it's a sign of weakness but everyone else seeing it as kindness, BM being introduced in WCI having a hunger rage, her throughout the arc desperate to eat the cake- whatever you might feel about how it happened, you cannot deny that it was clearly set up it would happen.
Luffy vs Katakuri, though, that to me has all the hallmarks of Oda throwing it in late. He'd already had his fight with Cracker. It required Luffy to for some reason totally abandon his crew to Big Mom as if a fight with Katakuri was more important. It was very disconnected to the main plot, something I don't think has ever happened before with Luffy's fight.
And if you look at factors outwith the manga, we've seen the original Katakuri was a swordsman with a totally different design- I think this implies him being a bit of a foil to Luffy was a late in the game decision. Plus Oda midway though WCI was saying he'd finish the arc and get Reverie and Wano- yes, he's bad at predictions anyway, but we also had a load of Wano promotional stuff that SJ ran throughout Japan that suggests they really did expect him to stick to his prediction there. And the one thing that I think totally threw this prediction was Luffy vs Katakuri.
Luffy vs Katakuri was a last minute addition to the arc because Oda (or maybe an editor) thought that an escape from WCI with no fights would be boring, and more importantly, Luffy wouldn't be doing enough in it. With one eye on Wano and the Kaido fight as well.
For all the complaints with the Wedding Cake, it had to happen. It was clearly set out throughout the arc that it would happen. Emphasis on Sanji's cooking from his family saying it's a sign of weakness but everyone else seeing it as kindness, BM being introduced in WCI having a hunger rage, her throughout the arc desperate to eat the cake- whatever you might feel about how it happened, you cannot deny that it was clearly set up it would happen.
Luffy vs Katakuri, though, that to me has all the hallmarks of Oda throwing it in late. He'd already had his fight with Cracker. It required Luffy to for some reason totally abandon his crew to Big Mom as if a fight with Katakuri was more important. It was very disconnected to the main plot, something I don't think has ever happened before with Luffy's fight.
And if you look at factors outwith the manga, we've seen the original Katakuri was a swordsman with a totally different design- I think this implies him being a bit of a foil to Luffy was a late in the game decision. Plus Oda midway though WCI was saying he'd finish the arc and get Reverie and Wano- yes, he's bad at predictions anyway, but we also had a load of Wano promotional stuff that SJ ran throughout Japan that suggests they really did expect him to stick to his prediction there. And the one thing that I think totally threw this prediction was Luffy vs Katakuri.
Cracker vs Luffy was no fight, it was a plot device to keep Luffy away from everything else for half a day.
You can see signs for both, Katakuri having a similar ability to Luffy and already having built up the invincible schtick, Luffy already stating he actively seeks out challenges to grow stronger compared to 2 years ago (against Fujitora for example, coupled with Rayleigh telling him he needs to do this to grow stronger) and so forth.
You can see signs for both, Katakuri having a similar ability to Luffy and already having built up the invincible schtick, Luffy already stating he actively seeks out challenges to grow stronger compared to 2 years ago (against Fujitora for example, coupled with Rayleigh telling him he needs to do this to grow stronger) and so forth.
You, for sure... I personally have no expectations since I know that One Piece is nathing more than business, and big corporations who make hundred millions of dollars will continue to strauch the story, change the plot, increase the fan service till the point when One Piece starts to make less money and then, then they will order Oda to wrap things up, revile the mistoryes as fast as possible and finish the story before they lose too much money. This is the reason why most of the mangas end really bad, no one gives a shit about storytelling, but everybody gives a shit about money. Oda wasn't writing One Piece for 20+ years, sacrificing his health, not spending enough time with his family and sleeping three hours a day for you guys, Oda doesn't even know you, he's doing this cuz he's making money for his family so that his child wouldn't need to work her ass off. Grow up guys, and stop thinking that One Piece is different or it's going to end differently, it's the same facking thing and always was.
Same same same. Not sure you'll ever get the bold part though 
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I liked your little Luffy explanation from the Critics Club. However what's lacking there (and generally in this forum) is taking his personality into consideration. If you look at his personality, you will see a fun-loving and playful person, not very intelligent so probably making a correlation of freedom and adventure with piracy. Whether this idea came from being under Garp's strict love fist, potentially his parents or his life before we knew it, I don't know. It only got cemented by Shanks and his brothers.
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I liked your little Luffy explanation from the Critics Club. However what's lacking there (and generally in this forum) is taking his personality into consideration. If you look at his personality, you will see a fun-loving and playful person, not very intelligent so probably making a correlation of freedom and adventure with piracy. Whether this idea came from being under Garp's strict love fist, potentially his parents or his life before we knew it, I don't know. It only got cemented by Shanks and his brothers.
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I'm more tense and anxious watching high school kids playing a volleyball match in Haikyuu than I am during the beginning of the massive raid on Onigashima against a yonko that has been built up since 2012...
It's shocking how terribly set the tone for this is. Embarrassing even. It's not even as if there's only one big issue in this arc either.
Lmao, yeah it certainly doesn't help that Oden, the key figure of the entire arc also happens to be one of Oda's worst characters in the entire series (proportional to their importance).
It's shocking how terribly set the tone for this is. Embarrassing even. It's not even as if there's only one big issue in this arc either.
Lmao, yeah it certainly doesn't help that Oden, the key figure of the entire arc also happens to be one of Oda's worst characters in the entire series (proportional to their importance).
