Character Discussion Author's death, are Sengoku and Mihawk fans really happy with the Manga?

[[No Name]]

I have discussed a theme with my friends many times.

I believe in the concept of author's death, I dislike how some people try to think "Oda would think this or he thinks that" like they are their mental therapists or some shit.

Torishima, historical editor of Toriyama has actually explained my view on the topic.

Kazuhiko Torishima: Once the work is published, you can't go there and explain your intentions. The manga no longer belongs to the author or the editor: it belongs to the reader. It's in their hands. What will the reader think? Do you ask yourself this question when you draw?

I don't think that people underestimating Mihawk or sengoku is a fan problem, it's an author problem. We got the last word, the power.
If the Manga makes Mihawk say he will go out at marineford with pre ts luffy is it really our fault?

I gave up to be clear, Mihawk is indeed stronger than Shanks since the Rocks Kanji dropped.
But, has the author suceded in make this clear for his audience? The average not obsessed one piece I engage with irl, like girls etc. all think lowly of Mihawk, or don't consider sengoku at all close to Garp.
Is this our fault? I think it's not.
It's Oda's job to concretize his ideas in the Manga, until he does that remember that an idea has to be accepted my editor and the likes.
One piece is not Oda, One piece is a product made by Oda and his editors, but the moment the chapter drops if Oda doesn't concretize his idea then it's not valid.

Random example, Oda can tell me "I actually wanted to portray X like this" but if he fails to do so and it contradicts the Manga, I will take the Manga over the author words.
Oda can tell me Sanji is stronger THAN zoro in sbs or interviews, this wouldn't be valid. Let's stop giving power to the authors, many said X and Y things in interviews and similar and then time later contradict their words in their work later on.

But even if the interview is after the Manga is finished, for example when Toriyama said that Babidy is actually Bibidy and not his son, do you really consider this? I don't.

Or do you consider Toriyama 6-10-15 scale for goku, beerus, whis? No, he contradicted this later on

Do you consider Toriyama saying goku won't use ssj3 after bog? No he did, what matters is when you concretizr your idea, ideas aren't Canon, when it's drawn black and white in the work it is and the work has a life itself, it's not the authors intent, it exists outside of him.

 

[Blax Blah]

I remember Mihawk is the WSS, not one random marineford panel


Mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman so
he is > Shanks, unless Shanks fights mainly without a sword, which so far seems to not be the case


But we see him with that title decades after Rocks died, the title doesn't make him > Rocks

 

[Salah WG]

You can blame Author when the Idea comes from him,
Shanks > Mihawk (Which is most discussed Topic regarding Mihawk) is something that Oda never suggested to Fans,
So how can you say that He Failed or Succeeded to prove Mihawk > Shanks when the Opposite was never on the table,
You are blaming Author for something that Fans wanted to be True so badly,

Shanks was only revealed to be an Emperor +400 Chapters into the Story, do you know what this means?
It means that for almost Ten Years of Manga (Most Manga aren't even that Long), Shanks was just a Mysterious Pirate, while Mihawk is WSS.
Author doesn't need to justify/clarify something that Fans themselves chose to believe in, just because Shanks is More Popular/Bigger Role,

And then Shanks was revealed as Emperor, which was the first thing his Fans were fed that They can use to Hype him over Mihawk,
What did this Author do? Did He let you continue your fantasies? No, He literally made WB & Shanks mention Mihawk (A Character who have nothing to do with that Sub-Plot nor entire Arc/Saga), why did He do that? Because He wants you to instantly drop the idea that Yonko Title makes Mihawk's Title Obsolete, it still Applies, nothing changed,

And this wasn't First time He done this, when WB was Introduced as Strongest Man, wouldn't Fans interpret that as WB having No Equals? as WB being Stronger than Roger? or maybe Roger was previous Strongest Man? .... etc so Oda added Buggy Scene to clarify that WB & Roger are Equals, to kill every Wrong Idea Fans have, right away,

The Story then continued as normal, and Shanks > Mihawk was never ever suggested, not even outside Manga (SBS, Databooks, Viver Card, Filler, Interviews ... etc), it's quiet the opposite, We only kept getting more & more Confirmation that Mihawk is indeed above All Swordsmen including Shanks,

Personally, I'm very satisfied with Mihawk's Portrayal, because He have two things that all other Characters don't:

1. The World Hypes him, instead of Him needing to Hype himself, because the more We learn this Story, the more impressive WSS Title looks,
2. No matter which Character receives an L, "Everyone" is indirectly or directly affected by that L, except Mihawk,

I'm sorry, but the Manga haven't Introduced similar Character yet.
As for going out against Luffy, He didn't mean He will use 100% of his Power lol but it means He won't stop unless He sees an Answer,
Answer to what question? "How will Fate save him", so Mihawk meant that He will not be the reason Luffy escapes, He will keep cornering/pushing him until He is saved by means outside of Mihawk's Control,

And then, Mihawk got his Answer, He saw how Fate was protecting Luffy by making him turn those around him into Allies & Protectors, it doesn't matter if Mihawk decided to go Kill Mode on Vista & Crocodile & whoever stood in his way, the outcome won't change, something will happen to Save Luffy, it could be more Strong Opponents joining or it could be a Lightning Bolt from Heaven or it could be a Tsunami or some Hand teleports him far away ... etc

Oda made Mihawk explain Luffy's Ability, to show that He understood this & chose to accept Luffy's Victory as Fate is with him,
Unlike Shiki for example who couldn't see this & what happened to him? A Tsunami saved Roger & Shiki took a Big L,

 

[Blax Blah]

You can blame Author when the Idea comes from him,
Shanks > Mihawk (Which is most discussed Topic regarding Mihawk) is something that Oda never suggested to Fans,
So how can you say that He Failed or Succeeded to prove Mihawk > Shanks when the Opposite was never on the table,
You are blaming Author for something that Fans wanted to be True so badly,

Shanks was only revealed to be an Emperor +400 Chapters into the Story, do you know what this means?
It means that for almost Ten Years of Manga (Most Manga aren't even that Long), Shanks was just a Mysterious Pirate, while Mihawk is WSS.
Author doesn't need to justify/clarify something that Fans themselves chose to believe in, just because Shanks is More Popular/Bigger Role,

And then Shanks was revealed as Emperor, which was the first thing his Fans were fed that They can use to Hype him over Mihawk,
What did this Author do? Did He let you continue your fantasies? No, He literally made WB & Shanks mention Mihawk (A Character who have nothing to do with that Sub-Plot nor entire Arc/Saga), why did He do that? Because He wants you to instantly drop the idea that Yonko Title makes Mihawk's Title Obsolete, it still Applies, nothing changed,

And this wasn't First time He done this, when WB was Introduced as Strongest Man, wouldn't Fans interpret that as WB having No Equals? as WB being Stronger than Roger? or maybe Roger was previous Strongest Man? .... etc so Oda added Buggy Scene to clarify that WB & Roger are Equals, to kill every Wrong Idea Fans have, right away,

The Story then continued as normal, and Shanks > Mihawk was never ever suggested, not even outside Manga (SBS, Databooks, Viver Card, Filler, Interviews ... etc), it's quiet the opposite, We only kept getting more & more Confirmation that Mihawk is indeed above All Swordsmen including Shanks,

Personally, I'm very satisfied with Mihawk's Portrayal, because He have two things that all other Characters don't:

1. The World Hypes him, instead of Him needing to Hype himself, because the more We learn this Story, the more impressive WSS Title looks,
2. No matter which Character receives an L, "Everyone" is indirectly or directly affected by that L, except Mihawk,

I'm sorry, but the Manga haven't Introduced similar Character yet.
As for going out against Luffy, He didn't mean He will use 100% of his Power lol but it means He won't stop unless He sees an Answer,
Answer to what question? "How will Fate save him", so Mihawk meant that He will not be the reason Luffy escapes, He will keep cornering/pushing him until He is saved by means outside of Mihawk's Control,

And then, Mihawk got his Answer, He saw how Fate was protecting Luffy by making him turn those around him into Allies & Protectors, it doesn't matter if Mihawk decided to go Kill Mode on Vista & Crocodile & whoever stood in his way, the outcome won't change, something will happen to Save Luffy, it could be more Strong Opponents joining or it could be a Lightning Bolt from Heaven or it could be a Tsunami or some Hand teleports him far away ... etc

Oda made Mihawk explain Luffy's Ability, to show that He understood this & chose to accept Luffy's Victory as Fate is with him,
Unlike Shiki for example who couldn't see this & what happened to him? A Tsunami saved Roger & Shiki took a Big L,

Yeah I didn't think Shanks would be that strong, and the emperors and admirals were very forgettable, you see the emperors once, and Whitebeard and the admirals matter only for a few episodes out of hundreds, to me I had no memory of emperors or admirals, I only cared about Luffy's journey, but I did remember Mihawk

I only found out Shanks was that strong after at least 500 episodes, maybe around WCI

 

[Salah WG]

Yeah I didn't think Shanks would be that strong, and the emperors and admirals were very forgettable, you see the emperors once, and Whitebeard and the admirals matter only for a few episodes out of hundreds, to me I had no memory of emperors or admirals, I only cared about Luffy's journey, but I did remember Mihawk

I only found out Shanks was that strong after at least 500 episodes, maybe around WCI

Emperor Title was revealed after 430 Chapters,
Before that (For almost Ten Years of Manga), Shanks was only known as a Mysterious Pirate,
Ofc it's obvious He was Portrayed as Very Powerful, but it was never ever suggested that He is Superior than Mihawk,
It was just a Possibility or Wishful Thinking, not something directly suggested by Author himself,

 

[BoaHancocksHusband]

Yeah I didn't think Shanks would be that strong, and the emperors and admirals were very forgettable, you see the emperors once, and Whitebeard and the admirals matter only for a few episodes out of hundreds, to me I had no memory of emperors or admirals, I only cared about Luffy's journey, but I did remember Mihawk

I only found out Shanks was that strong after at least 500 episodes, maybe around WCI

I have Shanks at 4000.
Mihawk at 3890.

 

[Blax Blah]

Emperor Title was revealed after 430 Chapters,
Before that (For almost Ten Years of Manga), Shanks was only known as a Mysterious Pirate,
Ofc it's obvious He was Portrayed as Very Powerful, but it was never ever suggested that He is Superior than Mihawk,
It was just a Possibility or Wishful Thinking, not something directly suggested by Author himself,

For me I didn't think he would be that strong because he was just a pirate at the beginning of the series. It took me a year to watch One Piece so a lot of these characters I would only see for a few days and then move on, and top tiers especially I didn't remember

 

[soupongo]

Stop dragging Sengoku into your Rat Painter cope debates please.

 

[kekaro]

Always will be, never is
0 panel time
0 relevance
7 essays

 

[ArturCantSpeakJapanese]

I have discussed a theme with my friends many times.

I believe in the concept of author's death, I dislike how some people try to think "Oda would think this or he thinks that" like they are their mental therapists or some shit.

Torishima, historical editor of Toriyama has actually explained my view on the topic.

Kazuhiko Torishima: Once the work is published, you can't go there and explain your intentions. The manga no longer belongs to the author or the editor: it belongs to the reader. It's in their hands. What will the reader think? Do you ask yourself this question when you draw?

I don't think that people underestimating Mihawk or sengoku is a fan problem, it's an author problem. We got the last word, the power.
If the Manga makes Mihawk say he will go out at marineford with pre ts luffy is it really our fault?

I gave up to be clear, Mihawk is indeed stronger than Shanks since the Rocks Kanji dropped.
But, has the author suceded in make this clear for his audience? The average not obsessed one piece I engage with irl, like girls etc. all think lowly of Mihawk, or don't consider sengoku at all close to Garp.
Is this our fault? I think it's not.
It's Oda's job to concretize his ideas in the Manga, until he does that remember that an idea has to be accepted my editor and the likes.
One piece is not Oda, One piece is a product made by Oda and his editors, but the moment the chapter drops if Oda doesn't concretize his idea then it's not valid.

Random example, Oda can tell me "I actually wanted to portray X like this" but if he fails to do so and it contradicts the Manga, I will take the Manga over the author words.
Oda can tell me Sanji is stronger THAN zoro in sbs or interviews, this wouldn't be valid. Let's stop giving power to the authors, many said X and Y things in interviews and similar and then time later contradict their words in their work later on.

But even if the interview is after the Manga is finished, for example when Toriyama said that Babidy is actually Bibidy and not his son, do you really consider this? I don't.

Or do you consider Toriyama 6-10-15 scale for goku, beerus, whis? No, he contradicted this later on

Do you consider Toriyama saying goku won't use ssj3 after bog? No he did, what matters is when you concretizr your idea, ideas aren't Canon, when it's drawn black and white in the work it is and the work has a life itself, it's not the authors intent, it exists outside of him.

mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman.

sengoku has fans?

 

[Knocking Master]

I'd have to disagree tbh.

I think Oda has done a good job of portraying where Mihawk stands in the OP world imo. The idea of him being the number 1 swordsman has never really been put into question within the story itself, so why should the fans question it just because other swordsman had a few moments where they look super strong?

It's a thought process that doesn't make sense to me imo. Other swordsmen looking impressive shouldn't mean Mihawk is lackluster or a fraud, it should only elevate him because he's the one who stands atop all of them.

At the end of the day, as long as defeating Mihawk is Zoro's end goal then why doubt that Oda will make him worthy of that?

 

[nik87]

As I always said, it is a matter of reading comprehension.
If you acknowledge Mihawk>Rocks and you have an issue with Mihawk going all out vs MF Luffy, it's a you problem.

 

[gz89]

I'm 100% sure that Oda has regretted his decision to make Shanks a swordsman (he didn't think the story would be so successful and long-lasting), but he can't do anything right now, so he keeps giving Shanks all the hype until the inevitable moment when Mihawk shines.

Anyway, i suggest my fellow Zorobros to keep their expectations low because in the end they will be equal or Mihawk 100 - Shanks 99.9.

 

[ArturCantSpeakJapanese]

As I always said, it is a matter of reading comprehension.
If you acknowledge Mihawk>Rocks and you have an issue with Mihawk going all out vs MF Luffy, it's a you problem.

Mihawk never went all out against Marineford Luffy. Like you said, it's a matter of reading comprehension.

The reading of Marineford must take into account the fact that Yoru has its own personality and that Mihawk understands this. When he says "This power knows no restraint" and asks fate if Luffy will "escape this black blade" what he's doing is allowing Yoru to attack on its own, without controlling it or directing the blade himself. It's not Mihawk going all out, it's Mihawk letting his sword off the leash.

He never says "My power" or "I won't hold back", he is always talking about the sword itself. Yoru, as the world's strongest blade, obviously has its own personality.

 

[Juanpiz]

mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman.

sengoku has fans?

His goat

 

[Aldarion]

Oda can tell me Sanji is stronger THAN zoro in sbs or interviews, this wouldn't be valid. Let's stop giving power to the authors, many said X and Y things in interviews and similar and then time later contradict their words in their work later on.

Not to mention, author can be wrong about their own work, which can be dangerous if people choose to take author's word as a gospel. For example, many think that Federal Service in the Starship Troopers book is an al-encompassing civil service, when in the book it is clearly a military organization, and civilian sector has little or nothing to do with the Federal Service:
https://www.nitrosyncretic.com/pdfs/nature_of_fedsvc_1996.pdf

And the reason why they think so is because Heinlein had said so in an interview. But Heinlein was wrong.

 

[Sentry22]

It wouldn’t make sense narratively for Mihawk to be stronger than Shanks. Simple as that. Even portrayal wise Shanks is on another level.

 

[MonsterKaido]

The issue for both comes from their marineford feats. By portrayal both are solid.

Oda unfortunately doesn't focus much on combat and more on story and plot like he off screens most of the fights. Hence its becomes an issue as people believe in see(show) don't tell more.

 

[Juanpiz]

It wouldn’t make sense narratively for Mihawk to be stronger than Shanks. Simple as that. Even portrayal wise Shanks is on another level.

Oda loves Garlings son more

 

[Sir Yasheen]

The authors intention >>>> reader interpretation