Powers & Abilities Conqueror vs Non Conqueror Mentality
- Thread starter Blazing Lion
- Start date
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that there has ever officially been said to be a sort of conqueror mentality that people need to possess in order to have it.
Ray said that Haki in general is not doubting yourself (which is why Haki just means spirit/ambition/drive, i.e. generally willpower), but not that CoC specifically relies on a unique and arbitrary level of willpower or personality traits to have it.
Luffy and Zoro have more willpower than the rest of their contemporaries, which is why Luffy and Zoro are stronger than their contemporaries. But it‘s not a bar to CoC itself not be at their level. That’s why trash like Chinjao can have it.
I don’t like a lot of the writing around CoC and I think it should be more limited than what it already is, let alone what it will be in the future. That stable door was already blown off long ago though.
My main issue is that it being tied with regen has essentially recreated the pre-skip broken DFs problem that Oda had actually solved with CoA, which was a far fairer method as CoA is open to anyone to learn.
Incidentally though, Kid and Law should be set up for big haki gains in the future, especially Kid as his defeat was evidently more “total.“ Getting defeated is not necessarily a problem, it’s how you react to the defeat that determines ambition. Like, Zoro‘s big balls Haki moment came when Mihawk had utterly humiliated him. It was the reaction to the defeat which showed his strength/willpower and impressed Mihawk.
And yes, I do believe Sanji’s little “just give up” speech does demonstrate a difference between him and the other M3 members and is essentially why he‘s the weakest of the three. He can still have CoC, and he can still have strong willpower in general, but it is not to Luffy and Zoro’s level.
Ray said that Haki in general is not doubting yourself (which is why Haki just means spirit/ambition/drive, i.e. generally willpower), but not that CoC specifically relies on a unique and arbitrary level of willpower or personality traits to have it.
Luffy and Zoro have more willpower than the rest of their contemporaries, which is why Luffy and Zoro are stronger than their contemporaries. But it‘s not a bar to CoC itself not be at their level. That’s why trash like Chinjao can have it.
I don’t like a lot of the writing around CoC and I think it should be more limited than what it already is, let alone what it will be in the future. That stable door was already blown off long ago though.
My main issue is that it being tied with regen has essentially recreated the pre-skip broken DFs problem that Oda had actually solved with CoA, which was a far fairer method as CoA is open to anyone to learn.
Incidentally though, Kid and Law should be set up for big haki gains in the future, especially Kid as his defeat was evidently more “total.“ Getting defeated is not necessarily a problem, it’s how you react to the defeat that determines ambition. Like, Zoro‘s big balls Haki moment came when Mihawk had utterly humiliated him. It was the reaction to the defeat which showed his strength/willpower and impressed Mihawk.
And yes, I do believe Sanji’s little “just give up” speech does demonstrate a difference between him and the other M3 members and is essentially why he‘s the weakest of the three. He can still have CoC, and he can still have strong willpower in general, but it is not to Luffy and Zoro’s level.
LMAO.
"I dont think Sanji has CoC, but if he does, his is weakest of all!!!!!!!!!"
I'm starting to think that Waban did more damage than ZKK not happening.
Not even a joke.
"I dont think Sanji has CoC, but if he does, his is weakest of all!!!!!!!!!"
I'm starting to think that Waban did more damage than ZKK not happening.
Not even a joke.
I’m saying that Sanji has the weakest CoC of the M3, because Sanji is the weakest of the M3.
Which should not be controversial to anyone with half a brain.
But Luffy > Zoro > Sanji has a tangential at best relationship to Sanji’s CoC compared to other characters.
To put some very quick numbers on it, if Luffy‘s 100, Zoro’s 90 and Sanji’s 80, Sanji’s still more impressive than everyone below 80, and that’s quite a lot.
Acting like the two minute breakdown in the immediate aftermath of Ace’s murder is the sum total of his reaction?
Luffy’s actual reaction to his defeat was to go away and train for two years to make sure that it never happened again. He didn’t just give up and say “ah well, not strong enough, guess that’s it.”
That’s why I’m saying what Kid and Law do now they have had defeats will probably give them both CoC gains. Unless they give up totally - and they won’t- overcoming it should give them a little boost.
What do you mean, “true reflection of his character?”
It is a facet of his character, that is there throughout the series. He has a lot of admirable qualities that he shares with Luffy and Zoro like grit, determination, etc.
But he does not quite have Luffy’s and Zoro’s total self belief, which is why he explicitly needed Luffy, Zoro and Zeff to kick him up the ass to get out into the world and stop him wasting his life. Which he would have done. That does separate him from Luffy and Zoro.
There’s quite a difference between Luffy having a very brief mental breakdown after the worst moment of his life, and Sanji for literal years stomping down on his ambition and dreams. Luffy’s is a brief moment of passion and grief, Sanji’s is a far more long term and deep seated. It reared its ugly head again on WCI, where he explicitly gave up on his adventure because he just couldn’t see any way out of the situation.
And again for the Sanji fanboys who will be foaming at the mouth, not having self belief equal to Luffy and Zoro =/=l having no self belief at all, or even poor self belief. Luffy and Zoro are explicitly extraordinary even among other CoC users, which is why they could impress guys like Shanks and Mihawk even back in East Blue even when they were fodder.
"two minute breakdown"
It is made quite clear that if it wasn't for Jinbe, Luffy was ready to give up on his dream. Literally the main reason why Jinbe was invited to the crew.
It is a facet as much as Luffy giving up post Ace death is.
Sanji at that point had given up on his dream to fulfill "Zeff's wishes", that is basically a prologue to the Sanji we have. We see Sanji before his traumatic stay at the island and he was ready to die for his dream. It's almost as if the whole point of Luffy meeting Sanji is that he revives that side of him.
Just like Jinbe reminds Luffy what he still has left
It is made quite clear that if it wasn't for Jinbe, Luffy was ready to give up on his dream. Literally the main reason why Jinbe was invited to the crew.
It is a facet as much as Luffy giving up post Ace death is.
Sanji at that point had given up on his dream to fulfill "Zeff's wishes", that is basically a prologue to the Sanji we have. We see Sanji before his traumatic stay at the island and he was ready to die for his dream. It's almost as if the whole point of Luffy meeting Sanji is that he revives that side of him.
Just like Jinbe reminds Luffy what he still has left
Sanji's "just give up" speech is Sanji trying to convince himself he should give up on his own dream for Zeff. He's not even really talking about Zoro, he's just projecting. And the reason he wants to try to convince himself, is because he didn't truly give up on his dream. His doubts have nothing to do with his resolve about his dream, it's purely about his love for Zeff. Crazy how misunderstood this scene is.
The reason Jinbei had to intervene was because Luffy was about to kill himself in his fits of rage
Which I suppose is giving up on his dream in a sense, but only because he was in the throes of a total mind meltdown.
It’s not just “a prologue” when Sanji gives up on his dream a second time in WCI. It‘s a part of Sanji’s temperament. He will make decisions (that in the real world) are logical and rational, and give up. Luffy and Zoro are more idealised and don’t.
It’s not slander to say a character has flaws lmao.
Which I suppose is giving up on his dream in a sense, but only because he was in the throes of a total mind meltdown.
It’s not just “a prologue” when Sanji gives up on his dream a second time in WCI. It‘s a part of Sanji’s temperament. He will make decisions (that in the real world) are logical and rational, and give up. Luffy and Zoro are more idealised and don’t.
It’s not slander to say a character has flaws lmao.
