Character Discussion Eustass "Captain" Kidd - The Great Pirate

[Garp the Fist]

To start, here’s proof that i don’t think Kid or Killer are fodder. This is from months ago, when Killer was being derided as fidder from all quarters

1. Luffy
2. Marco
3. Kid
4. Zoro
5. Law
6. Killer (oh ho, controversial)

7. Sanji (probably also controversial)
8. Jinbei
9. Inu (counting Su Long)
10. Neko (equal to the above, ditto)
11. Denjiro
12. Ashura
13. Kawamatsu

14. Kine'mon (after here I stop really caring)
15. Izo
16. Brook
17. Franky
18. Robin

19. Kiku
20. Raizo
21. Nami
22. Ussop
23. Chopper
24. Carrot
25. Shinobu

Now, as to Kid being a rival to Luffy, he fails for two very simple reasons
-his crew is not anywhere near strong enough to fight Luffy’s, let alone all the allies Luffy can assemble
-the two have never actually fought each other and are as good as allies.

 

[Rackham]

To start, here’s proof that i don’t think Kid or Killer are fodder. This is from months ago, when Killer was being derided as fidder from all quarters


Now, as to Kid being a rival to Luffy, he fails for two very simple reasons
-his crew is not anywhere near strong enough to fight Luffy’s, let alone all the allies Luffy can assemble
-the two have never actually fought each other and are as good as allies.

Didn't point you out as one of those who called them fodders, cause I know you're a reasonable user in this forum even if our ideas diverges

- His crew isn't completely flashed out as of now, apart from Heat and Wire who still need proper introductions and showcase of their abilities, we also don't know who he could recruit to increase his manpower (likely thing to happen after the war). Also, I'm not completely sure that will be a crew vs crew battle, I thing a captain vs captain and first mate vs first mate is more likely. We'll see
- The official fight will happen later (Lodestar), there would be no sense in making them fight now that the villains are Kaido and Big Mom, they have to come on top of this war and lead the New Era. Once both of them will be grown in power, they'll meet and fight.

 

[Pantheos]

-his crew is not anywhere near strong enough to fight Luffy’s, let alone all the allies Luffy can assemble
-the two have never actually fought each other and are as good as allies.

- No other crew beside the Yonko crews are nearly as big as Luffys Grand fleet, also BBs is not close to that, specialy when it comes to strong fighters. BUT, that doesnt change the rivality between these 2 characters. Roger didnt had a grand fleet either, so far we know, whitebeards was way bigger as crew, still they were acknowledged as rivals.

- They dont need to fight in person against each other, cause their are rivals, not enemies. They ackowledge each other and they will do everything to get stronger than each other. Goku and Vegeta dont need to fight permanently either, they did when they became enemies, but since then? Only for training. Dont mix up rivality with enemy.

In my opinion, Kid is what Luffy would be if Luffy would be a real pirate and not his romantized version.

Also, i would stick with the idea of:

Xebec - BB
Roger - Luffy
WB - Kid

 

[Rackham]

Shouldn't be forgot his underworld position that probably gives him a lot of manpower (this is speculation tho, or deduction based on his status)
Btw @Garp the Fist what doesn't convince you of everything I wrote down. What makes you point toward the direction that Kidd is a "cheerleader" or "support" and not a "main player"

 

[Garp the Fist]

No other crew beside the Yonko crews are nearly as big as Luffys Grand fleet, also BBs is not close to that, specialy when it comes to strong fighters. BUT, that doesnt change the rivality between these 2 characters. Roger didnt had a grand fleet either, so far we know, whitebeards was way bigger as crew, still they were acknowledged as rivals.

We actually saw that the Roger Pirates and Whitebeard Pirates were able to fight each other for days

Nobody is telling me with a straight face that the Strawhats vs Kid Pirates would be anything close to that.

They dont need to fight in person against each other, cause their are rivals, not enemies. They ackowledge each other and they will do everything to get stronger than each other. Goku and Vegeta dont need to fight permanently either, they did when they became enemies, but since then? Only for training. Dont mix up rivality with enemy.

Of course they need to fight each other. They’re meant to be competitors for the same prize, if all Kid is doing is paying backup to Luffy he’s no different from Law.

Post automatically merged: Jan 19, 2021

Xebec - BB
Roger - Luffy
WB - Kid

Blackbeard is a mixture of Xebec and Whitebeard.

He’s Whitebeard’s “son”, has the mirror epithet of him (Whitebeard to Blackbeard), killed him, took his DF, took his position as a Yonko, will be the strongest and greatest foe Luffy has ever had.

While he’s named his ship after Xebec, took his old island as his headquarters, looks to be gathering allies like Rocks did and may well have the same eventual goal of being King of the World.

 

[Sakazuki-Singh]

I can see him being somewhat relevant post Wano if he inflicts major damage to Kaido/BM

Luffy is far ahead of him right now based on chapter 1000/1

 

[Pantheos]

We actually saw that the Roger Pirates and Whitebeard Pirates were able to fight each other for days

Nobody is telling me with a straight face that the Strawhats vs Kid Pirates would be anything close to that.


Of course they need to fight each other. They’re meant to be competitors for the same prize, if all Kid is doing is paying backup to Luffy he’s no different from Law.

He didnt backed up Luffy so far, they are on the same stage, for the same goal. Thats why Kid even laughed at Law for playing Backup. They fight their own kind of fight of getting stronger as the other one or get the One Piece before the other one. Thats their kind of fight. And if they both stand right next to it and they would need to fight for it, they would. But why should they before?

About Kids Crew, for now, we dont know anything about them. But considered they fought Kaido, went against Shanks Crew, infiltrated WCI and survived, i doubt there are only weaklings. We just dont know heat and wire and even more yet, cause they arent the MC crew. I hope we will get more of them, but telling they wouldnt be any kind of strong, would kinda push Kid and Killer immensly, cause you assume all they did before was these 2 people alone, while Luffy had his whole crew, his grandfleet and countless friends around him, all the time.

 

[Garp the Fist]

He didnt backed up Luffy so far

Sure he did. Look at chapter 1000. Everyone stands and watches while Luffy cracks Kaido in the jaw and declares himself the future Pirate King. Kaido then sees all these amazing pirates in Luffy’s shadow. Kid hasn’t done anymore than Law has so far.

About Kids Crew, for now, we dont know anything about them. But considered they fought Kaido, went against Shanks Crew, infiltrated WCI and survived, i doubt there are only weaklings. We just dont know heat and wire and even more yet, cause they arent the MC crew. I hope we will get more of them, but telling they wouldnt be any kind of strong, would kinda push Kid and Killer immensly, cause you assume all they did before was these 2 people alone, while Luffy had his whole crew, his grandfleet and countless friends around him, all the time.

Well put it this way- who’s fighting the TR and the Calamities? The Strawhats, or the Kid Pirates?

Heat and Wire haven’t done anything to make themselves stand out any more than Shachi or Penguin have. Oda’s actually gave Vito and Gotti more screen time, and those two are genuine nobodies.

And them being weak doesn’t really push Kid and Killer much at all, because Kid and Killer don’t have any great achievements prior to Wano.
-they got badly defeated by the Red Hairs.
-Kid wounded a Sweet Commander. Not so impressive, Urouge actually beat one, and he doesn’t even have any named crewmates
-got defeated by Kaido

 

[Reborn]

Nobody is telling me with a straight face that the Strawhats vs Kid Pirates would be anything close to that.

@Pantheos called me to stop your anti wank.


Why it won't be close to that? Oda is portraying kidd parallel to luffy.


Yes kidd crew got destroyed but this also gives opportunity to build again and gather stronger men. And after wano kidd name sky rocketed and he will have a crew strong enough.

We actually saw that the Roger Pirates and Whitebeard Pirates were able to fight each other for days

Nobody is telling me with a straight face that the Strawhats vs Kid Pirates would be anything close to that.


Of course they need to fight each other. They’re meant to be competitors for the same prize, if all Kid is doing is paying backup to Luffy he’s no different from Law.

Post automatically merged: Jan 19, 2021

Blackbeard is a mixture of Xebec and Whitebeard.

He’s Whitebeard’s “son”, has the mirror epithet of him (Whitebeard to Blackbeard), killed him, took his DF, took his position as a Yonko, will be the strongest and greatest foe Luffy has ever had.

While he’s named his ship after Xebec, took his old island as his headquarters, looks to be gathering allies like Rocks did and may well have the same eventual goal of being King of the World.

Kidd isn't law.


Law motive was to defeat dofla and he was banking on SHs but kidd has kept on stating that he will defeat kaido.


Don't underestimate kidd.

 

[Rackham]

so far

That's the key word

And them being weak doesn’t really push Kid and Killer much at all, because Kid and Killer don’t have any great achievements prior to Wano.
-they got badly defeated by the Red Hairs.
-Kid wounded a Sweet Commander. Not so impressive, Urouge actually beat one, and he doesn’t even have any named crewmates
-got defeated by Kaido

- Happened a the start of the TS, should be noted how he survived, not how badly he lost
- Urouge beated the 4th during the Dressrosa events, Kidd wounded one during the 1st year of the TS basically doing what Luffy did in smaller scale (invading BM territory, going against a SG, stealing something and managing to get out of BM territories). All this without Fishmen/Germa backup
- Exactly like Luffy was after defeating Katakuri, if we have to be precise he handled more than one shot, as Hawkins suggested

 

[Pantheos]

Sure he did. Look at chapter 1000. Everyone stands and watches while Luffy cracks Kaido in the jaw and declares himself the future Pirate King. Kaido then sees all these amazing pirates in Luffy’s shadow. Kid hasn’t done anymore than Law has so far.

The main character got his first entrance and first hit, while saving one of his friends, what a surprise. But did Kid followed any of Luffys orders or wishes? Did he stepped back cause of Luffys wish? Or was he straight up to give kaido als a taste of his power? While law even was whiny cause he followed orders.

Well put it this way- who’s fighting the TR and the Calamities? The Strawhats, or the Kid Pirates?

Heat and Wire haven’t done anything to make themselves stand out any more than Shachi or Penguin have. Oda’s actually gave Vito and Gotti more screen time, and those two are genuine nobodies.

And them being weak doesn’t really push Kid and Killer much at all, because Kid and Killer don’t have any great achievements prior to Wano.
-they got badly defeated by the Red Hairs.
-Kid wounded a Sweet Commander. Not so impressive, Urouge actually beat one, and he doesn’t even have any named crewmates
-got defeated by Kaido

We dont know who is fighting the Tobi Roppo and the Calamities for now. It is still possible Kids crew get their entrance, also Laws Crew, even it is possible the BMP appeares and will take the job cause BM betrays Kaido, it is still open. I mean, specially looking at the Calamaties, one is already taken down (by non strawhat) and 2 are fighting Marco right now, also a non strawhat.

Yeah they dont have done anything so far. Which brings us back to my argument: You assume Kid and Killer alone, 2 persons, have done all these things alone, while Luffy did need his Grand fleet, full crew and countless friends for nearly the same?

- They went against Red Hairs, survived and still want to go against them.
- Kid wounded a Sweet Commander, yes. But thats not his achievement here, and it wasnt his goal either. He had a goal there, to steal something, and the got what he wanted. He had no intend to fight more sweet comanders or even Katakuri, or Big mum. He got what he wanted and left WCI in good condition. Chapter 1001 even implied he did took a RP. And you call that "not a great achievement", stealing a RP from a Yonko, without big husstle.
- Got defeated by Kaido, while get acknowledged by him, fought him as long as he could stand (implied it was not a one shot, like... against Luffy), still got his sht together and will fight Kaido again, without hesitation.

 

[Konstantis]

Kidd will kill Kaido

 

[Rackham]

Kidd will kill Kaido

Don't spread the word, must be a surprise

 

[Garp the Fist]

Why it won't be close to that? Oda is portraying kidd parallel to luffy.

Because other than Killer, the Kid Pirates are nobodies. It is ridiculous to say that Heat and Wire, who are literal background characters, are anywhere near as strong as Franky and Brook, let alone Sanji and Jinbei.

Yes kidd crew got destroyed but this also gives opportunity to build again and gather stronger men. And after wano kidd will name sky rocketed and he will have a crew strong enough.

Like who? There’s no build up for anyone joining Kid. He’d need to recruit some important, named characters to stand a chance, and so far he hasn’t encountered any that would join up with him over Luffy.

Law motive was to defeat dofla and he was banking on SHs but kidd has kept on stating that he will defeat kaido.

Yeah, so we know he’s going to fail, cause Luffy’s the one who will defeat Kaido

That's the key word

Yeah, it’s the phrase i was arguing against lol. Pan said so far, Kid hasn’t been backup to Luffy. He very much has

- Happened a the start of the TS, should be noted how he survived, not how badly he lost
- Urouge beated the 4th during the Dressrosa events, Kidd wounded one during the 1st year of the TS basically doing what Luffy did in smaller scale (invading BM territory, going against a SG, stealing something and managing to get out of BM territories). All this without Fishmen/Germa backup
- Exactly like Luffy was after defeating Katakuri, if we have to be precise he handled more than one shot, as Hawkins suggested

Yes, but are any of these achievements anything that suggest that Kid’s crew played any real part? No, it’s just Kid being strong. Amd like i said at the start, I’m not arguing that Kid isn’t strong.

I’m saying his crew, sans Killer, are trash.

We dont know who is fighting the Tobi Roppo and the Calamities for now. It is still possible Kids crew get their entrance, also Laws Crew, even it is possible the BMP appeares and will take the job cause BM betrays Kaido, it is still open

I think we know enough to say that Heat and Wire won’t play any role. These are two guys who have had a combined ten sentences of speech or something like that in the entirety of One Piece. They aren’t important characters, so it’s extremely unlikely Oda has any plans for them. Especially since there’s so many to balance here on Onigashima,

You assume Kid and Killer alone, 2 persons, have done all these things alone, while Luffy did need his Grand fleet, full crew and countless friends for nearly the same?

Eh? Nearly the same? Kid’s achievements, little as they are, aren’t in the same league as Luffy’s. He’s never even beaten anyone that we know about. There’s a reason Luffy’s bounty is 1.5 billion and Kid’s is 470 million, you know.

All Kid’s done just show that he himself is strong. He’s never done anything to suggest he has a great crew. I don’t think Urouge has a great crew because he beat Snack, I sure as hell don’t think Kid has one for managing less than that.

 

[Rackham]

Yes, but are any of these achievements anything that suggest that Kid’s crew played any real part? No, it’s just Kid being strong. Amd like i said at the start, I’m not arguing that Kid isn’t strong.

I’m saying his crew, sans Killer, are trash.

Possible, but still doubt it until they're clearly shown helpless like Shacci and Penguin. Btw them being would only hype Kidd and Killer even more, but I personally don't like this possibility

 

[zzShinichi]

Kidd's crew needs to go fight the Calamities or Toppi Roppo. Like they just vanished since the raid started.

 

[Pantheos]

is 1.5 billion and Kid’s is 470 million, you know.

All Kid’s done just show that he himself is strong. He’s never done anything to suggest he has a great crew. I don’t think Urouge has a great crew because he beat Snack, I sure as hell don’t think Kid has one for managing less than that.

Fighting Kaido longer then a One Shot, while Luffy got one shotted, as 1.5b berry man, is no achievement?
Stealing something, assumed a RP; from WCI and leave without husstle is no big achievement?
Are you really argueing that?


And you also know the 1.5b for Luffy is pure propaganda and fanboyism by morgans.

 

[ReggieZoldyck21]

Fighting Kaido longer then a One Shot, while Luffy got one shotted, as 1.5b berry man, is no achievement?
Stealing something, assumed a RP; from WCI and leave without husstle is no big achievement?
Are you really argueing that?


And you also know the 1.5b for Luffy is pure propaganda and fanboyism by morgans.

Don’t forget that Kidd also never got recognition for what he did in Big Moms territory because of false rumors that were spread.

 

[Garp the Fist]

Fighting Kaido longer then a One Shot, while Luffy got one shotted, as 1.5b berry man, is no achievement?

Not really, no. We didn’t actually see it happen. At best it says that Kid has really good durability, but given that he apparently fights by wrapping himself in metal and making a mech that doesn’t say much. We know he didn’t do any damage to Kaido, and we know he wasn’t much impressed by Kid back then either- look at how he talked to Kid when he had him locked up in Onigashima after Zou.

Stealing something, assumed a RP; from WCI and leave without husstle is no big achievement?

There is absolutely no reason to think that Kid even knows what a Road Poneglyph is when Robin, world renowned Poneglyph expert, didn’t until she got to Zou.

Let alone the idea that Kid managed to somehow sneak into the Poneglyph room deep in the heart of BM’s territory and get away with a copy without BM even being aware of it.

And you also know the 1.5b for Luffy is pure propaganda and fanboyism by morgans.

No it isn’t. Morgans doesn’t set bounties, the World Gov do. It’s Stussy’s information that will have decided Luffy being a 1.5 billion pirate, not Morgans.

 

[Rackham]

Not really, no. We didn’t actually see it happen. At best it says that Kid has really good durability, but given that he apparently fights by wrapping himself in metal and making a mech that doesn’t say much. We know he didn’t do any damage to Kaido, and we know he wasn’t much impressed by Kid back then either- look at how he talked to Kid when he had him locked up in Onigashima after Zou.



There is absolutely no reason to think that Kid even knows what a Road Poneglyph is when Robin, world renowned Poneglyph expert, didn’t until she got to Zou.

Let alone the idea that Kid managed to somehow sneak into the Poneglyph room deep in the heart of BM’s territory and get away with a copy without BM even being aware of it.



No it isn’t. Morgans doesn’t set bounties, the World Gov do. It’s Stussy’s information that will have decided Luffy being a 1.5 billion pirate, not Morgans.

Him enduring more than one shot is stated by Hawkins who was looking at the scene, and he was mentioned after Luffy defeat (mentioning him as another CoC user)

Nothing that Oda couldn't explain with his permanence for 2 years in the NW or that he discovered it during his invasion of WCI

Bounties are given by the events Navy assists to or is informed about. Navy was not present in WCI so the bounty was given by Morgan information (which pushed in calling him the 5th Emperor of the Sea)
Kidd actions in WCI didn't merge outside of Totland