Powers & Abilities General CoA Discussion - Basic & Advanced

[HA001]

So the smoke and static was from his shirt being ripped. Got it.

Actually I didn’t. Kyoshiro said nothing about haki, nor flow.

Eneru and the priests said nothing about haki cause it was mantra.
Koshiros ancestory is from wano where they dont have the term haki either.

 

[ZoroGang]

These Sanji bois are pathetic. If you guys don’t like zoros feats stop reading the manga and go bake a cake🤷🏿‍♂️

 

[nik87]

These Sanji bois are pathetic. If you guys don’t like zoros feats stop reading the manga and go bake a cake🤷🏿‍♂️

It's a Luffy fan hating Zoro because he used Haki before his boi.

 

[ZoroGang]

It's a Luffy fan hating Zoro because he used Haki before his boi.

Oh so it’s a rubber boi bitching. Zoro mid diffs eos luffy if cracker is able to cut gear 4th zoro will put him in a blender

 

[Gintoki]

Oh so it’s a rubber boi bitching. Zoro mid diffs eos luffy if cracker is able to cut gear 4th zoro will put him in a blender

Lmao, superficial wound from cracker, Even Luffy can't cut his arm in prison cell after receiving a "cut from cracker"

It's a Luffy fan hating Zoro because he used Haki before his boi.

pre-ts zoro still weaker to pre-ts Luffy:cheers:

Post automatically merged: Sep 22, 2019

 

[Vlad D. Impaler]

Zoro was able to cut steel after Alabasta so what he learned there remained, at least part of it.
It was never advanced CoA for him, you only call it advanced because you learned it through Luffy's eyes who is barehanded combatant and has no medium to let his Haki flow into.
Zoro used flow before he learned Hardening and for Noodle's brain, there was no teacher to explain him what it is good for.
"You cant skip basic haki and use advanced..." Luffy just literally did, he still doesnt know how to use blasting and uses something more advanced.

There's a difference, Luffy is already fairly versed in the usage of CoA. He even uses it in combination with his elasticity. But having no prior knowledge of the concept of CoA and suddenly out of the blue using an advanced version of it, is a very different thing.

Let me explain in other way

Luffy subconsciously broke collar by using highly advanced CoA (keep in mind that Ryo was not teaching him this-he was teaching him advanced CoA - Shockwave /deflection). He didn't realize what he did nor he learnt it nor he mastered it yet he some how used it under extreme circumstances.

Zoro did the same in alabasta. But he has no one to guide him like Hyo in Luffy case until ts

Both of them are very different situations. I never said that Zoro didn't had the ability, I'm saying he didn't awaken it pre TS. I agree that a person could use haki subconsciously without control over it. But in the case of Luffy he awakened it during critical situation but can't use it afterwards, that's why Hyo had to teach him. Same thing happened with Ussop's CoO and Pre TS when Luffy used CoC. But Zoro's situation is completely different, he not only used CoA in Alabasta (acc to you guys) but also was able to fully control it afterwards when he needed to cut steel. He could use it willingly all the time during pre TS that means he had control over, but it contradicts Mihawk's statement about Zoro needing to learn usage of Haki, that statement clearly indicates that Zoro can't use Haki to any extent. He didn't said that "Zoro the ability you are using all along is called Haki, and I am going to teach you to make it stronger.."

 

[ZoroGang]

There's a difference, Luffy is already fairly versed in the usage of CoA. He even uses it in combination with his elasticity. But having no prior knowledge of the concept of CoA and suddenly out of the blue using an advanced version of it, is a very different thing.

Both of them are very different situations. I never said that Zoro didn't had the ability, I'm saying he didn't awaken it pre TS. I agree that a person could use haki subconsciously without control over it. But in the case of Luffy he awakened it during critical situation but can't use it afterwards, that's why Hyo had to teach him. Same thing happened with Ussop's CoO and Pre TS when Luffy used CoC. But Zoro's situation is completely different, he not only used CoA in Alabasta (acc to you guys) but also was able to fully control it afterwards when he needed to cut steel. He could use it willingly all the time during pre TS that means he had control over, but it contradicts Mihawk's statement about Zoro needing to learn usage of Haki, that statement clearly indicates that Zoro can't use Haki to any extent. He didn't said that "Zoro the ability you are using all along is called Haki, and I am going to teach you to make it stronger.."

Did we see zoro training ? All he said was turn your swords black zoro never turned his sword black but he definitely used haki. No reason for oda explaining it like that as far as we know zoro could have accomplished his task that same day

 

[OEKaneki]

There's a difference, Luffy is already fairly versed in the usage of CoA. He even uses it in combination with his elasticity. But having no prior knowledge of the concept of CoA and suddenly out of the blue using an advanced version of it, is a very different thing.

Both of them are very different situations. I never said that Zoro didn't had the ability, I'm saying he didn't awaken it pre TS. I agree that a person could use haki subconsciously without control over it. But in the case of Luffy he awakened it during critical situation but can't use it afterwards, that's why Hyo had to teach him. Same thing happened with Ussop's CoO and Pre TS when Luffy used CoC. But Zoro's situation is completely different, he not only used CoA in Alabasta (acc to you guys) but also was able to fully control it afterwards when he needed to cut steel. He could use it willingly all the time during pre TS that means he had control over, but it contradicts Mihawk's statement about Zoro needing to learn usage of Haki, that statement clearly indicates that Zoro can't use Haki to any extent. He didn't said that "Zoro the ability you are using all along is called Haki, and I am going to teach you to make it stronger.."

The viz version of the scene clears this nonsense up anyway. In the JB version, it’s worded like haki and breath of all things are connected. In the Viz scan, they’re presented as two different ideas, with the boat sentence being a reinforcement of what he’s trying to teach Luffy.

He says “in Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade.”

That’s the end of that one thought. And in this thought, he’s clearly talking about haki. And then he says:

“A good katana will cut through steel when you want it to. And it will not break a sheet of paper if you wish it so. It is all according to the desire of the swordsman.”

He’s basically using breath of all things as an example to tell Luffy that to use the barrier, he has to simply will it to be so, just like to cut steel or to cut nothing at all, the swordsman must will it to be so. What Zoro did in Alabasta was not haki, as the breath of all things and haki are not related at its core. Breath of all things is a principle of swordsmanship that he was trying to teach Luffy so that he could use the barrier.

 

[ZoroGang]

The viz version of the scene clears this nonsense up anyway. In the JB version, it’s worded like haki and breath of all things are connected. In the Viz scan, they’re presented as two different ideas, with the boat sentence being a reinforcement of what he’s trying to teach Luffy.

He says “in Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade.”

That’s the end of that one thought. And in this thought, he’s clearly talking about haki. And then he says:

“A good katana will cut through steel when you want it to. And it will not break a sheet of paper if you wish it so. It is all according to the desire of the swordsman.”

He’s basically using breath of all things as an example to tell Luffy that to use the barrier, he has to simply will it to be so, just like to cut steel or to cut nothing at all, the swordsman must will it to be so. What Zoro did in Alabasta was not haki, as the breath of all things and haki are not related at its core. Breath of all things is a principle of swordsmanship that he was trying to teach Luffy so that he could use the barrier.

Lmfaoo so when he used the supposed breath of all things did you not see haki in his arm yu clown

 

[Vlad D. Impaler]

The viz version of the scene clears this nonsense up anyway. In the JB version, it’s worded like haki and breath of all things are connected. In the Viz scan, they’re presented as two different ideas, with the boat sentence being a reinforcement of what he’s trying to teach Luffy.

He says “in Wano too, there is an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused with the blade.”

That’s the end of that one thought. And in this thought, he’s clearly talking about haki. And then he says:

“A good katana will cut through steel when you want it to. And it will not break a sheet of paper if you wish it so. It is all according to the desire of the swordsman.”

He’s basically using breath of all things as an example to tell Luffy that to use the barrier, he has to simply will it to be so, just like to cut steel or to cut nothing at all, the swordsman must will it to be so. What Zoro did in Alabasta was not haki, as the breath of all things and haki are not related at its core. Breath of all things is a principle of swordsmanship that he was trying to teach Luffy so that he could use the barrier.

Also, if the turning the blade permanently black is similar to highly advanced usage of CoA i.e destroying objects from within and making blade black than Rayleigh would have possessed a black blade coz he cld use that advanced CoA as shown when he destroyed the collar at Sabody also I think that a top tier swordsman such as Shanks too would have turned his blade black if that was the case. But it seems that obtaining a black blade requires some special skill.

 

[Rivaille]

They may be the same explanation, but they are by no means correlated.

In alabasta it was an Up for Zoro to cut steel. And he mastered this UP and managed to cut steel in later sagas. While in Udon, Hyogoro says it's a CoA enhancement.

The most obvious bet is that Zoro didn't use advCoA there, even though you say it was unconscious, it's completely false because Zoro has mastered the breathing technique of things. Perhaps Oda may have entered a similar dialogue because a framework for a perfect explanation of fluid haki is plausible, and he used the basis of a dialogue he had used some 15 years earlier. But as I said, they have no correlation. The funniest thing is that you are seeking consistency with the definition of haki as if it was pre-defined in alabasta.

So Oda purposely tried to mislead his readers?

 

[Inspector_Mu]

No, I’m not. I’m saying that he didn’t use haki period, not that he couldn’t have used it because he wasn’t told what it was. You guys are pushing a fallacy that using haki equates to cutting steel. Zoro cut Daz, made of steel. Later, in Water 7, Zoro cut the sea train. Even later, in Thriller Bark, Zoro cut Kuma. All three instances in which he cut steel. However, when Zoro met Enel on Skypeia, and Aokiji just before Water 7, and Kizaru on Sabaody, while having the ability to cut steel (which you guys again are assigning as haki), he could do nothing to them. Unless you’re suggesting he dumbed down his attacks, then he was not using haki when fighting them.

He did not use haki on Alabasta, nor was it some advanced type of haki. He was simply learning a basic way to cut, which is probably the beginning stage of attempting to learn haki later.

Mantra is different than Ryou in that Rayleigh assigned Mantra to a specific branch of haki, whereas Hyo states that Ryou is simply haki. Not a specific branch, but haki in general.

They wont give an answer
It seems like zoro haki can only cut steel lol
Somehow he couldnt even cause trouble to any Logia pre ts... even Apoo landed a hit on kizru
Zoro with his so called haki got no diffed by Enel

 

[yorosenpai]

Guys, Zoro has advanced hacky because he has reach Oden Mastery in term of taming Enma (that in less than 1 day after he got the sword).
Do you think that a guys like Oden doesn't have advanced armament hacky? The guys that was the strongest samurai in his era? yeah keep dreaming bro, it going to be a bloodily nightmare for all Zoro's downplayer.

That all you have to know.

 

[nik87]

It's Incredible how salty people are and what kind of mental gymnastics they are capable of all in effort to say that Zoro didnt use Haki in Alabasta.

 

[Afroking]

Hyogoro and Kyoshiro,who both are from Wano, use the same phrases to describe the same thing ,but apparently Zoro did not use that.

He unlocked something unique to him,called Tetsu no Jutsu . Upon chanting this spell, he can mysteriously cut steel.

 

[Geo]

No, he does not equate Zoro cutting Daz to haki. The quote does not reference a haki technique that Zoro used in Alabasta.

But since you want to talk about the quote, fine.

Spoiler

If you read the actual quote, the entire thing, you’ll see that Hyo prefaced his statement by saying, speaking of haki/ryou:

“We have an ability like that. It is transferred from the user’s body to the sword.”

Here he is specifically referring to haki, and the transfer of it from the body to the sword. For you to transfer haki, you have to already posses it. Zoro did not, and could not have used it, because he didn’t have haki itself.

In the next chapter, Hyou is on Luffy’s back and states that:

“What you outsiders call haki is known as Ryuo here in the Wano country. It focuses on the concept of flow.”

With this, it should be clear that Hyou was talking about the flow of haki, and that there is a distinction between the two parts of his statement.

The other part is a reference to mastery over the sword, willing to sword to do what you wish. If you wish the sword to cut something, it will. If you don’t, it won’t.

These are two separate things. Ryou is haki, which Zoro did not have. The part about the cutting what you want and not cutting what you don’t want, i.e. exerting your will on the blade, is a issue of swordsmanship, which is why Zoro’s teacher referred to it as “the pinnacle of swordsmanship”.

If you think about it, Zoro was taught this swordsmanship technique when he was a kid, when he was neither a master of the blade nor a haki user. It makes sense for him to be taught that, because by learning the latter, exerting your will on the sword, you can then be prepared to better master Ryou when the time comes that you actually have haki and are able to use it.

It is actually a refutation to the point. Hyou explaining the basics of swordsmanship for samurai in Wano does not mean that Zoro had ever used haki, as he did not use the capability of it, as proven in the instances in which he didn’t harm people that he would have otherwise harmed had he actually had the capability to.

It is not a manga fact. It is you and others trying to retroactively assign abilities that did not come into play until much later to prop up a character you like.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Did you even read what I posted or you are just going to keep on deflecting. Zoro choosing what to cut and not to cut is exactly what Hyo stated is called haki in Wano.

you read the actual quote, the entire thing, you’ll see that Hyo prefaced his statement by saying, speaking of haki/ryou:

“We have an ability like that. It is transferred from the user’s body to the sword.”

Here he is specifically referring to hak

You literally admit it here that what Hyo said is referring to Haki. So why do you keep being dishonest.

For you to transfer haki, you have to already posses it. Zoro did not, and could not have used it, because he didn’t have haki itself.

Everybody has haki..read the manga well. Rayleigh made this statement so this point of yours is invalid.

It is actually a refutation to the point. Hyou explaining the basics of swordsmanship for samurai in Wano does not mean that Zoro had ever used haki, as he did not use the capability of it, as proven in the instances in which he didn’t harm people that he would have otherwise harmed had he actually had the capability to.

It is not a manga fact. It is you and others trying to retroactively assign abilities that did not come into play until much later to prop up a character you like.

Hyo says what you call haki, we have something similar here which allows us to cut what we want and what we don't want...............proceeds to use haki.

Something written in the manga word for word is not considered manga fact because you say so.

Ok, so you choose the embarrassing admission that you think Zoro would have held back using a technique that makes him stronger, and by the actual statement does not solely apply to steel to begin with, despite the overall threat of the person he was facing.

And by the way, Zoro only learned Kuma was steel post-fact, which means that he was using slices strong enough to cut steel without actually knowing whether or not he was steel. Stow the “were they steel?” argument.

So you have no argument.

Kuma wasn't steel...read the manga.

It’s actually not invalid, at least for people that look at the story with a shred of sense and honesty

Quite hypocritical since you've been dishonest throughout your post. Specifically you've been blatantly dishonest when it comes to anything which places Zoro close or even alongside Luffy. Or did you forget your claim that Zoro having Enma was irrelevant because he wasn't strong enough...then manga chapter comes out showing Zoro is the only one besides Oden himself to tame the sword....that irrelevance.

 

[Cyrus the Cactus]

Quite hypocritical since you've been dishonest throughout your post. Specifically you've been blatantly dishonest when it comes to anything which places Zoro close or even alongside Luffy. Or did you forget your claim that Zoro having Enma was irrelevant because he wasn't strong enough...then manga chapter comes out showing Zoro is the only one besides Oden himself to tame the sword....that irrelevance.

UM AKSHUALLY we didn't see everyone in Wano trying to tame Enma, so the statement that was obviously meant to hype Oden, Enma, and Zoro is irrelevant!! :laughmoji:

 

[Rukusho]

“Zoro didn’t use Haki in alabasta”

mental gymnastics 101

 

[OEKaneki]

Also, if the turning the blade permanently black is similar to highly advanced usage of CoA i.e destroying objects from within and making blade black than Rayleigh would have possessed a black blade coz he cld use that advanced CoA as shown when he destroyed the collar at Sabody also I think that a top tier swordsman such as Shanks too would have turned his blade black if that was the case. But it seems that obtaining a black blade requires some special skill.

I’m not even sure that it requires a special skill as opposed to the way the sword is made. Mihawk says that any blade can become a black blade, referring to using hardening to coat it. Rayleigh and Shanks can certainly do that too. But, if you look at blades that we know are black or can turn black, Shuusui and Enma were both made in Wano. By the name, Yoru sounds like it was made in Wano as well. Contrast that to Gryphon, which has a name that sounds as if it was not made in Wano. I’m sure Rayleigh’s blade is similar. If that’s the case, it would make sense why Shanks and Rayleigh wouldn’t have permanently black blades, because they don’t seem to have one of the special blades from Wano.

They wont give an answer
It seems like zoro haki can only cut steel lol
Somehow he couldnt even cause trouble to any Logia pre ts... even Apoo landed a hit on kizru
Zoro with his so called haki got no diffed by Enel

Honestly. This is approaching how bad the entire thing about Sanji and future sight was.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Did you even read what I posted or you are just going to keep on deflecting. Zoro choosing what to cut and not to cut is exactly what Hyo stated is called haki in Wano.

It’s actually not, as viz shows.

You literally admit it here that what Hyo said is referring to Haki. So why do you keep being dishonest.

I never said that it referred to haki, as it doesn’t. Not the part you’re trying to talk about anyway.

Everybody has haki..read the manga well. Rayleigh made this statement so this point of yours is invalid.

This is false. Everybody has the capability to unlock haki, not everybody has haki.

Hyo says what you call haki, we have something similar here which allows us to cut what we want and what we don't want...............proceeds to use haki.

Something written in the manga word for word is not considered manga fact because you say so.

That’s not what he says, as viz shows.

So you have no argument.

Kuma wasn't steel...read the manga.

Er, actually he was.

Quite hypocritical since you've been dishonest throughout your post. Specifically you've been blatantly dishonest when it comes to anything which places Zoro close or even alongside Luffy. Or did you forget your claim that Zoro having Enma was irrelevant because he wasn't strong enough...then manga chapter comes out showing Zoro is the only one besides Oden himself to tame the sword....that irrelevance.

I actually haven’t been. I’ve said that he isn’t close to Luffy or alongside Luffy because he’s not. That’s actual honesty, as is saying that Zoro having Enma is irrelevant because he’s not strong enough to do damage to Kaido even with it, obvious by how Luffy couldn’t do it and he’s far stronger than Zoro.

 

[Cyrus the Cactus]

I’m not even sure that it requires a special skill as opposed to the way the sword is made. Mihawk says that any blade can become a black blade, referring to using hardening to coat it. Rayleigh and Shanks can certainly do that too. But, if you look at blades that we know are black or can turn black, Shuusui and Enma were both made in Wano. By the name, Yoru sounds like it was made in Wano as well. Contrast that to Gryphon, which has a name that sounds as if it was not made in Wano. I’m sure Rayleigh’s blade is similar. If that’s the case, it would make sense why Shanks and Rayleigh wouldn’t have permanently black blades, because they don’t seem to have one of the special blades from Wano.

Honestly. This is approaching how bad the entire thing about Sanji and future sight was.

It’s actually not, as viz shows.

I never said that it referred to haki, as it doesn’t. Not the part you’re trying to talk about anyway.

This is false. Everybody has the capability to unlock haki, not everybody has haki.

That’s not what he says, as viz shows.

Er, actually he was.

I actually haven’t been. I’ve said that he isn’t close to Luffy or alongside Luffy because he’s not. That’s actual honesty, as is saying that Zoro having Enma is irrelevant because he’s not strong enough to do damage to Kaido even with it, obvious by how Luffy couldn’t do it and he’s far stronger than Zoro.

Spoiler: Koshiro's words

Spoiler: Koshiro's words

Spoiler: Hyogoro's Words

I dunno man, clearly the comparison between paper and steel by two characters who have obvious connections to Wano, who both mention the ability to cut what a swordsman wants to cut...obviously they're two different things.

Also gotta ignore Zoro, Ryuma, and Hyogoro mentioning "goken"...all three having connections to Wano..

Spoiler: Zoro, 195

Spoiler: Ryuma, 467

Spoiler: Hyogoro, 939

The reason I bring in Ryuma is because one of the One Piece magazines, published back in May, mentioned that Ryuma's swordsmanship inspired the people of Wano to develop techniques to cut fire and steel, like he was able to do.


...I don't think there's any connection. :laughmoji:

Look at the spoilers with Koshiro's words and Hyogoro's words. They're all from Viz. What's the difference between the two?

There's also this, again from Viz.

What's different about it? Please give an answer that's more than "No they're different". Oda's a good writer who brings up plot points that he seeded into the story like 20 years ago, and you don't think Oda consciously made the decision to make Zoro's unique-and-totally-not-haki ability sound EXACTLY like Ryuo-which-is-Haki-in-Wano? :unsure:

Why are they different? They both mention the will of the swordsman to cut what they want to cut and what they don't want to cut. They both use paper and steel as examples. Did Oda bring that up just to confuse readers who paid attention and made the connection?