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- Thread starter Guan Yu
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- Tags cruzeiro > your fav team kaneki & mutin kouen > all ousen ousen>cruzeiro riboku>ousen shin > ouhon wingdom
Saki clan is a) fighting, and b) doing it alongside the HSA.
Maybe they didn’t have spare horses at Gian, so stationing them with the HSA makes more sense than the all cavalry remnants of the Kan Ki Army, but I find it nevertheless strange to see them actually scrapping it out in the open with the Zhao.
I think Shin almost has to make a point of saving them now, after they saved the lives of Den Yuu, Ryuu Sen and Chuu Tetsu. Could very see him tell Na Ki to go save them, and if Kan Ki dies at the end of this arc, I could see them being absorbed into Na Ki’s unit.
Maybe they didn’t have spare horses at Gian, so stationing them with the HSA makes more sense than the all cavalry remnants of the Kan Ki Army, but I find it nevertheless strange to see them actually scrapping it out in the open with the Zhao.
I think Shin almost has to make a point of saving them now, after they saved the lives of Den Yuu, Ryuu Sen and Chuu Tetsu. Could very see him tell Na Ki to go save them, and if Kan Ki dies at the end of this arc, I could see them being absorbed into Na Ki’s unit.
That would be ruining the whole battle if anyone interfered but that's how Riboku wins or got saved. Though few might feel upset about it but Riboku has been thoroughly defeated here while it's just plot armor which is been saving him for last 3 chapters.
Either make Kanki die or leave via Riboku's scheme or make Riboku being severely injured if not die and than make Kanki taking retreat.
Either make Kanki die or leave via Riboku's scheme or make Riboku being severely injured if not die and than make Kanki taking retreat.
But like you saw in Reddit/TKC or even here, people still can't understand Kanki's warfare or how he thinks or moves. They still believes, Kanki lost more than 100k soldiers so he lost the war but still ignores that he already said on day 1 that he knows how dangerous it is and what kind of traps were laid out there but we're going to walk into all this coz afterall let's enemy believes he succeeded and than defeat them in there own game. Lol
If it wasn't based on real history, than i doubt after writing this war in such a way even Hara could control himself to not let Riboku die here.
Nevertheless, it has become one of the best war in whole series. Lol
If it wasn't based on real history, than i doubt after writing this war in such a way even Hara could control himself to not let Riboku die here.
Nevertheless, it has become one of the best war in whole series. Lol
To be fair, I do not see how the folk that are saying that are in the wrong here. Kanki has lost most of the army he started with and he is going to fail to kill Riboku. How is that not a loss on his part?
Besides, say he does kill Riboku. Then what? The point of this campaign was to conquer the North of Zhao to prevent the Zhao royal family from retreating there and setting up a new base of power. How exactly is Kanki going to achieve that with a shattered army and a relatively untouched big arse Zhao Army still in the area?
Besides, say he does kill Riboku. Then what? The point of this campaign was to conquer the North of Zhao to prevent the Zhao royal family from retreating there and setting up a new base of power. How exactly is Kanki going to achieve that with a shattered army and a relatively untouched big arse Zhao Army still in the area?
If Riboku dies or gets out of commission (due to injury) than its a loss for Zhao. That's how it works. Get main commander in chief out of the picture. Lol
During Sanyou, Renpa lost because HakuKiSai dies not because there army got annihilated. Same goes for Shukai plains, Riboku lost because he has to flee not because his army got annihilated there.
As for the next question, if Riboku dies here, than there's no one capable enough to command such large army in the north, so even if Kanki escapes later on, it's Ousen who would be starting to make his move to capture north. It was a campaign that should be led by these two commanders but Kanki moved first so Ousen definitely going to get things started at some point. Lol
Than Kanki lost to Kochou as well. He lost a huge amount of soldiers against Kochou as well.
I know Riboku ain't dying here but him getting out of the picture for this war is definitely available as a possibility.
During Sanyou, Renpa lost because HakuKiSai dies not because there army got annihilated. Same goes for Shukai plains, Riboku lost because he has to flee not because his army got annihilated there.
As for the next question, if Riboku dies here, than there's no one capable enough to command such large army in the north, so even if Kanki escapes later on, it's Ousen who would be starting to make his move to capture north. It was a campaign that should be led by these two commanders but Kanki moved first so Ousen definitely going to get things started at some point. Lol
Than Kanki lost to Kochou as well. He lost a huge amount of soldiers against Kochou as well.
I know Riboku ain't dying here but him getting out of the picture for this war is definitely available as a possibility.
who knows but it might be possible that Riboku learnt from Kanki and currently set himself as bait to lure out Kanki here. He definitely not that severely injured to get dragged by two soldiers. Lol
while he already displayed his martial prowess once so it's not like Hara would have forgotten about that.
while he already displayed his martial prowess once so it's not like Hara would have forgotten about that.
If you are a character of relevance, you are 1,000x more likely to survive deadly situations. This has always been the case. Heki is arguably the biggest offender this arc.
I don’t find it a big deal personally, though perhaps people would be more fine with it if Hara minimized the amount of close-calls he had in this ambush.
I don’t find it a big deal personally, though perhaps people would be more fine with it if Hara minimized the amount of close-calls he had in this ambush.
You don’t even believe this. Unless they take Gian or Ri Boku’s head, it’s an L for Qin.
Ren Pa called off the battle because Wei’s formations were in tatters and Ou Sen was still in the wind with a fresh army. He specifically said the Wei weren’t loyal to him so it would be difficult to rally them. When Rin Ko died, his death didn’t have the usual impact because he wasn’t of Wei.
The Northern Zhao generals we know of would probably crown Ri Boku king if he let them. He is the man who brought them victory at Ganmon. A selfless leader they all deeply respect. They would be furious if anything happened to him, it would be a major boost to their fighting strength.
This is a major assumption based on nothing.
En Kan commands a 100K army from Gian alone. Kotsu Min Haku is the commander of Ganmon and he probably commands similar numbers. There still remains Chou Haku, the General of the East. The young Chou Kotsu is supposedly competent, and another general by the name of Tou Ri, who came down from the north to keep YTW at Ryouyou is still out there, probably.
Ren Pa called off the battle because Wei’s formations were in tatters and Ou Sen was still in the wind with a fresh army. He specifically said the Wei weren’t loyal to him so it would be difficult to rally them. When Rin Ko died, his death didn’t have the usual impact because he wasn’t of Wei.
The Northern Zhao generals we know of would probably crown Ri Boku king if he let them. He is the man who brought them victory at Ganmon. A selfless leader they all deeply respect. They would be furious if anything happened to him, it would be a major boost to their fighting strength.
This is a major assumption based on nothing.
En Kan commands a 100K army from Gian alone. Kotsu Min Haku is the commander of Ganmon and he probably commands similar numbers. There still remains Chou Haku, the General of the East. The young Chou Kotsu is supposedly competent, and another general by the name of Tou Ri, who came down from the north to keep YTW at Ryouyou is still out there, probably.
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Yes, Riboku's death would be a loss for Zhao but unless Kanki can secure the North then his current campaign is a failure.
We have seen this scenario before at the Battle of Dalkan Plains. The campaign objective for Duke Hyou was to capture a major Wei city. The campaign objective for Gokei was to repel the Qin invasion force and prevent the fall of the city. Hyou managed to kill Gokei but his own army was completely brutalised to the point that it was impossible for Hyou to complete the campaign objective of capturing the aforementioned Wei city.
Thus, Hyou failed in his campaign objective while Gokei succeeded in his own objective.
Renpa admitted defeat precisely because his army was on the brink of being annihilated. He says as much himself. With Renpa's surrender, the campaign objective of securing the Sanyou region was achieved.
As for Riboku, he retreated from Shukai Plains in an attempt to prevent Qin from achieving their campaign objective of securing Gyou city.
Also, both armies in those examples got cobbled. Renpa lost 1/2 of his deputies and the Commander in Chief while Riboku lost every General on his left wing bar Bananji as well as a Great Heaven.
Meanwhile in this battle, Zhao hasn't even lost a single General yet nor have they lost a significant number of troops.
By comparison, Kanki has completely lost the Heki Army and the Fuu Han Army along with any of his own men that linked up with Heki. Shuma is dead too.
Isn't there anybody? For the Northern regions, the Generals of Ganmon and Gian are already there along with Riboku's deputies. For an overall Commander in Chief, Riboku has brought Shibashou back into gear while the Zhao Court has Chou Kotsu available.
Is Ousen really going to do that though? His own army is still recovering, one portion of the backup army isn't coming, the other portion of the backup army is completely wiped out and Kanki's own numbers are greatly diminished. Is Ousen really going to challenge a numerically untouched Northern Zhao Army of hundreds of thousands by himself even without Riboku commanding it? I doubt it from Mr. No-Risks.
Kinda confused here since you are quoting the bit where I talked about Kanki losing his troops and failing to kill Riboku.
Yeah, if Kanki had failed to kill Kochou, that would have been a colossal L on his part considering how decimated his army was.
Apart from that, the campaign objective there actually was to eliminate Kochou and the Kochou Army since they were blocking the way to besiege Kantan. The campaign objective here is to capture Northern Zhao to prevent it from being used as a new base of power for the Zhao royal family. Killing Riboku would be a nice compensation prize but unless Northern Zhao is captured then this particular campaign is a failure that makes capturing Kantan less of a decisive victory.
We have seen this scenario before at the Battle of Dalkan Plains. The campaign objective for Duke Hyou was to capture a major Wei city. The campaign objective for Gokei was to repel the Qin invasion force and prevent the fall of the city. Hyou managed to kill Gokei but his own army was completely brutalised to the point that it was impossible for Hyou to complete the campaign objective of capturing the aforementioned Wei city.
Thus, Hyou failed in his campaign objective while Gokei succeeded in his own objective.
Renpa admitted defeat precisely because his army was on the brink of being annihilated. He says as much himself. With Renpa's surrender, the campaign objective of securing the Sanyou region was achieved.
I am going to strongly disagree on this one. Renpa gave a detailed and logical explanation as to why he surrendered.
The only way Renpa could have avoided the scenario he described was by negotiating with the Supreme Commander of the Qin Army i.e. Mougou.
If Renpa had killed Mougou then he would have to negotiate with Ousen and Kanki separately as neither had any seniority over the other in rank. Neither Ousen nor Kanki are the negotiating type, Kanki especially since without Mougou to keep him in check, Kanki would just run wild.
If Renpa had killed Mougou then he would have to negotiate with Ousen and Kanki separately as neither had any seniority over the other in rank. Neither Ousen nor Kanki are the negotiating type, Kanki especially since without Mougou to keep him in check, Kanki would just run wild.
Also, both armies in those examples got cobbled. Renpa lost 1/2 of his deputies and the Commander in Chief while Riboku lost every General on his left wing bar Bananji as well as a Great Heaven.
Meanwhile in this battle, Zhao hasn't even lost a single General yet nor have they lost a significant number of troops.
By comparison, Kanki has completely lost the Heki Army and the Fuu Han Army along with any of his own men that linked up with Heki. Shuma is dead too.
Isn't there anybody? For the Northern regions, the Generals of Ganmon and Gian are already there along with Riboku's deputies. For an overall Commander in Chief, Riboku has brought Shibashou back into gear while the Zhao Court has Chou Kotsu available.
Is Ousen really going to do that though? His own army is still recovering, one portion of the backup army isn't coming, the other portion of the backup army is completely wiped out and Kanki's own numbers are greatly diminished. Is Ousen really going to challenge a numerically untouched Northern Zhao Army of hundreds of thousands by himself even without Riboku commanding it? I doubt it from Mr. No-Risks.
Kinda confused here since you are quoting the bit where I talked about Kanki losing his troops and failing to kill Riboku.
Yeah, if Kanki had failed to kill Kochou, that would have been a colossal L on his part considering how decimated his army was.
Apart from that, the campaign objective there actually was to eliminate Kochou and the Kochou Army since they were blocking the way to besiege Kantan. The campaign objective here is to capture Northern Zhao to prevent it from being used as a new base of power for the Zhao royal family. Killing Riboku would be a nice compensation prize but unless Northern Zhao is captured then this particular campaign is a failure that makes capturing Kantan less of a decisive victory.
Kan Ki
- knowingly walked into an ambush at Gishi Plains
- spent most of his time on the run
- lost the 10K Heki Army
- lost the 50K Fuu Han Army
- lost the 55K Kan Ki Army
- lost the Zenou clan
- lost Shu Ma
- likely about to lose the Shu Ma clan
- likely about to lose Zenou
conclusion: a total victory for Kan Ki.
- knowingly walked into an ambush at Gishi Plains
- spent most of his time on the run
- lost the 10K Heki Army
- lost the 50K Fuu Han Army
- lost the 55K Kan Ki Army
- lost the Zenou clan
- lost Shu Ma
- likely about to lose the Shu Ma clan
- likely about to lose Zenou
conclusion: a total victory for Kan Ki.
Funny thing is, when Kanki's first solo campaign concluded, Karyoten emphasized how Kanki's casualties were far lower than expected. Ever since then, Kanki's battles have been an absolute meat grinder for his own forces. The more campaigns Kanki leads, the more that first one looks like a one off success for his poor army's casualty rate.
It is a wonder how the bloke even has an army left at this point.
It is a wonder how the bloke even has an army left at this point.
Well, consider this: Shin killed Kei Sha and left the Zhao command structure in complete disarray.
Without Kei Sha, it fell to Ki Sui to make a decision between Rigan or the greater good of Zhao's interests. He chose the former.
Had Shin not happened upon Kei Sha and slain him, Kei Sha would've likely never allowed Ki Sui to desert his position - not with any meaningful numbers at the very least. Kei Sha was certainly the type to have taken Ki Sui hostage if that's what it took to make the Rigan Army compliant.
Then again, perhaps Kei Sha would've been perfectly capable of finishing fortification with just his own men. The Qin had sustained heavy losses at that point.
We'll never now what would've happen, had Shin not slain Kei Sha when he did, but it's undeniable the vacuum that his death created is what really did the Zhao in.
Without Kei Sha, it fell to Ki Sui to make a decision between Rigan or the greater good of Zhao's interests. He chose the former.
Had Shin not happened upon Kei Sha and slain him, Kei Sha would've likely never allowed Ki Sui to desert his position - not with any meaningful numbers at the very least. Kei Sha was certainly the type to have taken Ki Sui hostage if that's what it took to make the Rigan Army compliant.
Then again, perhaps Kei Sha would've been perfectly capable of finishing fortification with just his own men. The Qin had sustained heavy losses at that point.
We'll never now what would've happen, had Shin not slain Kei Sha when he did, but it's undeniable the vacuum that his death created is what really did the Zhao in.
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