This is completely false, he attempted to neutralize the unknown force of Shibashou with his strategy of isolating him, but it didnt work. Ousen realistically did the best he could with the tools he had. Except at the end when he delayed his retreat due to his faith in Akou and Sou'ou. Outside of that Ousen was fine and was of the same caliber he was at Shukai.
Shin chose to chase after Riboku of his own free will. Weren't Ousen's orders, were Akou's and he could've easily said no and do his thing. He then chose to siege.
Ousen positioned the HSU in a manner that would allow him to join forces with the HSU if need be. Why? Because he knew that could end up being a possibility. Riboku by completely owning HSU fucked that up. So now Ousen had to deal with the Seika army while not having his biggest pawn available to him. While his biggest subordinate fell into a trap.
That's credit to Riboku, but you can't blame for Ousen for that. Just like you can't blame Riboku for the decisions independently taken by Gyou'un not retreating when Bananji sent the order to. These are independent decisions taken by generals.
What was Ousen meant to do? Pull up random strategies out of his ass?
You guys are overdoing it with the Ousen slander. This coming from a guy who wrote essays to @Shanks how Riboku owned Ousen at Shukai.
Maybe. But i'm completely disappointed with his inability to take any decision, a Qin 6 General must be capable of reading the battlefield and making suitable decisions. No?
Another thing, Ousen shouldn't also be primarily dependent on Shin. Latter isn't even part of his original army technically.
Sometimes Generals have to make do with the tools available. Which in this case is Ousen own army combining to 120k. But Ousen became the damsel.
The fact is Riboku realised the ability of Shin, and made proper plan to comprise him and checkmate Ousen. Because first time over Ousen was lucky the young trio had awakened. So Riboku removes them and result is here.
Idk this is giving way too many bad flashbacks to the Ousen wank and Riboku slander I had to fight post- Shukai. Where people simplify the blame on to the main general. Except this time I'm defending Ousen.
Maybe. But i'm completely disappointed with his inability to take any decision, a Qin 6 General must be capable of reading the battlefield and making suitable decisions. No?
Another thing, Ousen shouldn't also be primarily dependent on Shin. Latter isn't even part of his original army technically.
Sometimes Generals have to make do with the tools available. Which in this case is Ousen own army combining to 120k. But Ousen became the damsel.
The fact is Riboku realised the ability of Shin, and made proper plan to comprise him and checkmate Ousen. Because first time over Ousen was lucky the young trio had awakened. So Riboku removes them and result is here.
- Yes but suitable decisions and strategies require the suitable tools to do so.
- Why shouldn't he? Riboku was primarily reliant on Seika in this war. Because they're part of his army. HSU right now is part of his army. Ousen's own army fucked up when his top general fell for a trap that Ousen saw through but was too far away to do anything about. But HSU isn't just 1 commander, it's 3 commanders capable of leading large armies. Getting 3 commanders sealed off effectively as a factor is just going to hurt.
- Ousen had got lucky with Mouten stepping up, but he expected Shin to level up and partial expectation for Ouhon. And while I would like to agree, tbf, Riboku also had the hidden card of Bananji at Shukai as well until the last day. And here having a whole army to whose strength the opposing army isn't fully aware of is crazy advantage. While Riboku this time around faced no issue of the "unknown"
This war is more about Riboku vs Qin, than Riboku vs Ousen imo. Same as Shukai. Idk why folks keep trying to turn these into 1on1s between Riboku and Ousen they aren't.
Riboku didn't just seal off Shin. He sealed off Kyoukai, Shin, Karyo Ten, 3 commanders capable of taking decisions and leading large armies. He also sealed off Kyourei and the archer bros. 1strategist, 3 martial powerhouses, and 2 complete game changing snipers.
In order to counter Seika's martial might properly and in particular Shibashou, he would've needed the martial might of some people from the HSU or Ouhon who got sealed off due to Shin's decision to seige.
Riboku wouldn't be in that situation because he has superior vassals. Neither Bananji or SSJ or Keisha would've taken the bait that Akou took.
But I don't think we need to discuss what Riboku would've done since that's going into Riboku vs Ousen, which isn't the purpose behind my posts.
Idk this is giving way too many bad flashbacks to the Ousen wank and Riboku slander I had to fight post- Shukai. Where people simplify the blame on to the main general. Except this time I'm defending Ousen.
Ousen and Riboku are just frightening strategists, giving them any small window to execute their strategies will result in a fatal loss
In Gyou, Riboku's biggest downfall was allowing Ousen time to formulate a plan, but who would've thought someone is capable of setting up a plan in such a short time to take down the most secured city in the region with the best defense in China
Riboku never even heard of a battle of endurance in the form of provisions.
Same for Hango, Riboku constructing a city in the middle of nowhere solely to trap Ousen's most valued piece is mental, there's really nothing you can do when you give this caliber of generals the chance to execute their strategies
Their next clash will be peak fiction, they know each other very well at this point so it's gonna be interesting to see how the battle unfolds
- Confused as to why you brought up Moubu. Moubu isn't the reason Qin lost, he's the reason Ouki got a guaranteed death. Qin was going to lose whether Moubu charged in or not the moment Riboku's fully healthy army showed up. Difference just being Ouki would've lived and a good portion of Qin army could've retreated. My mentioning of Bayou had absolutely nothing to do with Moubu. It had to do with not having information. Ouki lost because Qin didn't have information on Riboku and his army, a complete unknown factor.
You brought up Ouki and I brought up Moubu, because he's relevant to what happened at Bayou. You don't dictate the terms of the discussion or what can be brought up or not.
- The moment we first see Akou looking at Riboku and about to go charge at Riboku... Hara literally draws a whole page with giant panels of Ousen saying "Don't fall for it Akou... it's a bait." Unless Ousen had a horse with instant teleportation he wouldn't have been able to prevent that. Then when Akou does fall for the trap, Ousen thinks highly of his own guy. Did you expect Ousen not to have faith in Akou?? But in order to help Akou's mistake he would've either had to fuck up his army formations or have faith in Akou. So no clue how you rationally blame this on Ousen. It's very clear Ousen saw through the trap and disagreed with it.
Ousen said "don't fall for it" when he didn't know it was Riboku the one who appeared right there, a few panels later he was saying "Riboku will pay for underestimating Akou". Akou was literally within Ousen's eyesight lol, if Ousen wanted Akou to stay put, send a messenger. Ousen didn't so he fucked up. The commander's job is to direct the battle, not sit around hoping your officers will carry you.
- Shin's function/role is that of an independent army, authority granted to him by SHK. He has the power to disobey orders as he sees fit according to the battlefield's demands, he isn't a subordinate general like Akou. Shin's responsibility is greater than Akou and so is his role. Ousen specifically positioned the right wing in a manner that would allow them to join forces if need be. Why? Because the HSU is his biggest piece and factor to turn tides. Akou on his own gave orders to Shin to chase Riboku. Shin then went through with it. Then when Shin sees a mud castle in the middle of nowhere he chose to continue with a siege. This had nothing to do with Ousen as it was out of his control.
It has everything to do with Ousen because Ousen could have put a stop to it by stopping Akou in the first place, and Shin secondly. Ousen did nothing instead.
In order to counter all of that Ousen would've needed men or horses with superspeed that would've reached them on time to prevent them from making those mistakes....so no clue how you would put any of that Ousen.
Yes, I'm sure Akou's messenger had superspeed as well. At least try not to use disingenous arguments.
- Why are you bringing in statements or things said by other people to me? I've multiple times stated Shukai was not an Ousen win, and he cannot be given credit for Mouten stepping up, partial credit for Ouhon's awakening and credit for Shin's awakening as he predicted it and his plan relied on it. Then at the end with Ouhon and Mouten coming in clutch to save him... If you have beef with people giving Ousen the full credit for Shukai, you should address them, not me. And if you yourself wish to participate in dumb logic like that go ahead, but you can't really use that as an argument against people who don't believe in it.
I don't know what you said about Shukai, nor was I claiming that you are one of the ones that said that Ousen deserved all the credit. I was talking about an in-universe perspective. Ousen was given the credit for Shukai plains. Now he's going to get the blame for this shitshow. No double standards.
Ousen and Riboku are just frightening strategists, giving them any small window to execute their strategies will result in a fatal loss
In Gyou, Riboku's biggest downfall was allowing Ousen time to formulate a plan, but who would've thought someone is capable of setting up a plan in such a short time to take down the most secured city in the region with the best defense in China
Riboku never even heard of a battle of endurance in the form of provisions.
Same for Hango, Riboku constructing a city in the middle of nowhere solely to trap Ousen's most valued piece is mental, there's really nothing you can do when you give this caliber of generals the chance to execute their strategies
Their next clash will be peak fiction, they know each other very well at this point so it's gonna be interesting to see how the battle unfolds
Yea I agree. Unless this time Ousen brings some unknown underlings out of hell or sum shit then Riboku getting fucked.
The unknown always plays a huge factor in somebody winning or losing in Kingdom. Even back with Sanyou, Kanki and Ousen were the unknowns for Renpa. He didn't know about Ousen and Kankis prowess until the battle. But does the battle turn out the same if he already knew about their prowess before hand? Probably not. Then did we actually get a proper gauge of Renpa's capabilities against Mougou/Kanki/Ousen?
This is why even when people historically dickride a certain generals winning so much and discrediting others because of losses. It's like bro.. it ain't that simple.
Watch the next battle be even more complex. But I do know for sure, SHK being put through hell right now.
Mouten is gonna be utterly terrifying in his prime. Shouheikun said that he couldn't grasp the extent of his potential, his talent was often portrayed to be beyond his rank (more than Ouhon and Shin), Mougou also called him the most talented in the family no esitation.
He's gonna be a nightmare of a strategist, it's hard for me to see even the set-to-be GOAT of the manga Ri Shin besting that Mouten.
Ouhon competes with Mouten strategically, and with Shin martially
Head and shoulders above the other two
Ouhon slayed Earl Shi and Gyou'Un, and came up with the strategy that defeated 4 Wei Dragons in the most difficult of terrains
Shin and Ouhon have done jack compared to that
You brought up Ouki and I brought up Moubu, because he's relevant to what happened at Bayou. You don't dictate the terms of the discussion or what can be brought up or not.
So just so I understand this yea.
I bring up Ouki and Bayou stating Ouki can't be blamed for the loss due to the unknown factor of Riboku and his army being the reason for the loss. Just as Seika's and in particular Shibashou's fairly unknown prowess being the main factor of this loss.
Your reply to this is inserting Moubu and talking about his fucking up is why Moubu can’t be blamed. My friend do you not realize how that makes 0 sense? I assumed you wanted me to reply back to you... thus I told you I'm confused as to why you brought it up... and rather than explaining the correlation you reply with talking about dictating and setting terms of a discussion. Did you just want me to ignore that point instead than as it had no relevance to what I stated?
Ousen said "don't fall for it" when he didn't know it was Riboku the one who appeared right there, a few panels later he was saying "Riboku will pay for underestimating Akou". Akou was literally within Ousen's eyesight lol, if Ousen wanted Akou to stay put, send a messenger. Ousen didn't so he fucked up. The commander's job is to direct the battle, not sit around hoping your officers will carry you.
Ahh being in eyesight = being able to sms a moving army in 30 seconds. Please go reread those chapters and look at the sheer distance between Akou and Ousen HQ at that point. "Within eyesight" while human eyes can see up to 3 miles and even more dependent on high you stand, is just an insane point.
Ah yes Ousen would be less concerned about it being a trap if the commander of the opposing army himself stepped in...right...
It has everything to do with Ousen because Ousen could have put a stop to it by stopping Akou in the first place, and Shin secondly. Ousen did nothing instead.
Yes, I'm sure Akou's messenger had superspeed as well. At least try not to use disingenous arguments.
Now you're trying to get into a discussion about time. And should be the last person in this discussion talking about being disingenous. But sure since I'm being disingenous, let's dive into it. Chapter 773 sets the locations of all the armies on the map.
The distance between Akou-Shin is very close to the distance between Ousen-Akou.
Then Shin charges ahead. Then Akou starts moving his army as well. The distance now has increased between Akou-Ousen, while Shin-Akou are relatively in a similar distance as before.
Akou then notices an enemy unit to the side. And right as Ousen from faraway also sees it hopes Akou doesn't fall into the trap, Akou speeds up and full on charges. To which Ousen then realizes it must be Riboku. You being non-disingeous are telling me that Ousen within the time frame of Akou charging and hitting Riboku is meant to send a messenger that is fast enough to cover a distance more than 3 times the one between Akou and Riboku? Are you trolling????
Once Akou heads towards Riboku to the right, guess what happens? Ohhh the distance between Ousen and Akou increases more and now Akou is closer to the HSU. Akou sends his fastest messengers to the HSU, who reach HSU at the same time as Riboku's army is crossing the HSU with Akou's army right with them.
But of course we are comparing two similar scenarios... and not completely different incomparable scenarios right? And of course I'm the one who is disingenous for not comparing them... and of course disingenous for not expecting Ousen to have a messenger that would cover 3 times as the distance as a charging Akou army. Sorry, I'll do better next time.
I don't know what you said about Shukai, nor was I claiming that you are one of the ones that said that Ousen deserved all the credit. I was talking about an in-universe perspective. Ousen was given the credit for Shukai plains. Now he's going to get the blame for this shitshow. No double standards.
Ouhon competes with Mouten strategically, and with Shin martially
Head and shoulders above the other two
Ouhon slayed Earl Shi and Gyou'Un, and came up with the strategy that defeated 4 Wei Dragons in the most difficult of terrains
Shin and Ouhon have done jack compared with that
I mean I know who the MC is and that Ouhon most likely won't beat Shin in a duel, but still, how much can Shin do without Ten or Kyoukai by his side ?
His strength is useless if he can't use strategies or use his instinctual warfare in every battle like the Duke or Gyou’Un would do.
Shin is not fit to be a supreme commander of a large army.
So just so I understand this yea.
I bring up Ouki and Bayou stating Ouki can't be blamed for the loss due to the unknown factor of Riboku and his army being the reason for the loss. Just as Seika's and in particular Shibashou's fairly unknown prowess being the main factor of this loss.
Your reply to this is inserting Moubu and talking about his fucking up is why Moubu can’t be blamed. My friend do you not realize how that makes 0 sense? I assumed you wanted me to reply back to you... thus I told you I'm confused as to why you brought it up... and rather than explaining the correlation you reply with talking about dictating and setting terms of a discussion. Did you just want me to ignore that point instead than as it had no relevance to what I stated?
Ouki can't be blamed for the loss because he gave the correct orders but Moubu disobeyed him like a dumbass. Ousen can be blamed for the loss because he didn't do shit. You tried to make a false equivalency between the two situations where there exists none.
Ahh being in eyesight = being able to sms a moving army in 30 seconds. Please go reread those chapters and look at the sheer distance between Akou and Ousen HQ at that point. "Within eyesight" while human eyes can see up to 3 miles and even more dependent on high you stand, is just an insane point.
I recently reread the chapters in fact. Maybe you are the one who needs to refresh your memory?
Now you're trying to get into a discussion about time. And should be the last person in this discussion talking about being disingenous. But sure since I'm being disingenous, let's dive into it. Chapter 773 sets the locations of all the armies on the map.
The distance between Akou-Shin is very close to the distance between Ousen-Akou.
Then Shin charges ahead. Then Akou starts moving his army as well. The distance now has increased between Akou-Ousen, while Shin-Akou are relatively in a similar distance as before.
Akou then notices an enemy unit to the side. And right as Ousen from faraway also sees it hopes Akou doesn't fall into the trap, Akou speeds up and full on charges. To which Ousen then realizes it must be Riboku. You being non-disingeous are telling me that Ousen within the time frame of Akou charging and hitting Riboku is meant to send a messenger that is fast enough to cover a distance more than 3 times the one between Akou and Riboku? Are you trolling????
Why did you leeave out the part where Ousen was there watching the fight for a while while doing jackshit? At any point Ousen could have sent a messenger to stop Akou, but he didn't. He was perfectly fine with Akou going after Riboku and didn't take a single step to stop it, but he's blameless in this according to you lol. I think not.
Once Akou heads towards Riboku to the right, guess what happens? Ohhh the distance between Ousen and Akou increases more and now Akou is closer to the HSU. Akou sends his fastest messengers to the HSU, who reach HSU at the same time as Riboku's army is crossing the HSU with Akou's army right with them.
But of course we are comparing two similar scenarios... and not completely different incomparable scenarios right? And of course I'm the one who is disingenous for not comparing them... and of course disingenous for not expecting Ousen to have a messenger that would cover 3 times as the distance as a charging Akou army. Sorry, I'll do better next time.
Mouten is gonna be utterly terrifying in his prime. Shouheikun said that he couldn't grasp the extent of his potential, his talent was often portrayed to be beyond his rank (more than Ouhon and Shin), Mougou also called him the most talented in the family no esitation.
He's gonna be a nightmare of a strategist, it's hard for me to see even the set-to-be GOAT of the manga Ri Shin besting that Mouten.
Simply why, SBK was showing interesting more in Shin than any Qin3, in Assassination clan Arc, SBK wants Shin at any cost even more than even Kyou Kai.
Post automatically merged:
People I reread the begining of Qin at Bayou Arc, and what I see was SHK wanting Shin even more than Kyou Kai, saying Shin will be amore interesting than Kyou Kai, who for me has a genius mind.
Don't forget what SHK said, that Moubu with his might strength can overcome strategies, Shin can do this with his Instinct and Martial Might together
So funny in retrospect how the arc was set up with
- Shin's army becoming the largest its ever been, conquering a castle offscreen in a single day. Then a chapter of the Qin court people gassing him up.
- Shin being the one who starts the battle, being pit against random bozo Enkan who everyone thought was going to get killed easily so Shin can grow in fame.
...
Nah Shin gets trolled by Riboku immediately and does literally nothing in the arc. Chad Enkan is chilling without a scratch. Way to treat your MC
So funny in retrospect how the arc was set up with
- Shin's army becoming the largest its ever been, conquering a castle offscreen in a single day. Then a chapter of the Qin court people gassing him up.
- Shin being the one who starts the battle, being pit against random bozo Enkan who everyone thought was going to get killed easily so Shin can grow in fame.
...
Nah Shin gets trolled by Riboku immediately and does literally nothing in the arc. Chad Enkan is chilling without a scratch. Way to treat your MC
Ouki can't be blamed for the loss because he gave the correct orders but Moubu disobeyed him like a dumbass. Ousen can be blamed for the loss because he didn't do shit. You tried to make a false equivalency between the two situations where there exists none.
Ill repeat once again, Ouki did not lose because of Moubu. Even if Moubu had not fallen for the bait, Ouki would've lost due to Riboku coming in with a 40k+ fully fresh army. Moubu taking the bait resulted in Ouki's guaranteed death. Moubu not taking the bait would've just led to a retreat. Ouki was going to lose the battle regardless. However, Riboku's plan wasn't simply to beat Ouki. It was specifically to kill him.
So why did Ouki actually lose? Because of the unknown factor of Riboku and his army. You remove that, he still would've won even with Moubu's fuck up.
Why did Ousen lose this war primarily? Due to the unknown factor of Shibashou and his army.
I fail to understand how you don't see the connection of the unknown playing a crucial role in both losses.
I recently reread the chapters in fact. Maybe you are the one who needs to refresh your memory?
Ah ok so you genuinely believe Ousen had a horse that could've covered 3 times the distance it'd take for Akou to attack Riboku.
Why did you leeave out the part where Ousen was there watching the fight for a while while doing jackshit? At any point Ousen could have sent a messenger to stop Akou, but he didn't. He was perfectly fine with Akou going after Riboku and didn't take a single step to stop it, but he's blameless in this according to you lol. I think not.
Because that has nothing to do with the argument you're making?
Ousen couldn't have sent a messenger fast enough to Akou to prevent the charge, virtually impossible.
He then couldn't have sent a messenger to Akou while he was getting fucked from all sides... since it's pointless. Akou repelled the attack then had the HSU request that they would BLOCK Riboku for him. Shin however decided to CHASE and then chose to commit a Seige.
No he wasn't fine with Akou doing that.. but once it happened he had no other choice except to believe Akou would repell them. Otherwise he would've needed to change up his army formations to go rescue Akou..no messenger is pulling Akou out of the fucking Riboku and co were giving him.
I sure hope so. I hope next time you don't ignore Ousen watching Akou fighting for a while doing jackshit instead of acting.
Now you're just acting like how Riboku haters behave, ignoring all context and just running with a narrative. Then restating the narrative when counters have been provided.
I'm just saying that Ousen will get the blame for this defeat, as he should. Not Shin or Akou like you're pretending will happen.
#1 responsibility for the defeat belongs to Ousen, noone else.
Ahh ok you're just an opposite of a Riboku hater, an Ousen hater. Makes sense why I was getting a similar feel as I did when I was going against Riboku haters post-Shukai.
People saying that Mouten is better than Shin, yet only strategically, because in martial, him loses badly, don't forget what SHK said about Martial Might(Brute strength) vs Strategists, we have plenty of Generals who overcome strategies with basically Martial(Brute strength) In the series.
Don't forget either about SHK wanting Shin more than even a genius like Kyou Kai.
Post automatically merged:
This isn't a boring arc, is reallly weak for Kingdom standards, but isn't bad.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
