Yea I think your counterargument is a bit disingenuous.
1st. This is the panel you're talking about right here. Absolutely nothing in this panel is about Moubu disobeying direct orders and fucking up battle plans for the entire war. It was specifically about his destructive power.
2nd. They literally had nobody else of prowess available to be the Vice-commander. It ain't like Ouki was sitting there and chilling with Kanki/Ousen/Yotanwa/Moubu all on the block and he decided to pick Moubu. No, that was the best thing available that he had to make work with. This is after Moubu is coming off a large campaign of 200k army...
3rd. What gamble?? Moubu is a grown ass man who has been through many wars. His job as the Vice-commander is to obey the Commander in Chief's order. Ouki thought that Moubu might act up if he saw Houken, thus he made it VERY CLEAR directly to Moubu himself, that he ABSOLUTELY cannot go past the range... which Moubu agreed to. Then when Ryuukoku reminds Moubu of that again, and Moubu replies "yes I know"... are Ryuukoku and Ouki supposed to expect this mf to be a liar?
Ouki meant to know that Moubu's IQ after being the lead of a 200k army campaign is low that he can't obey basic orders? That when he sees a basic trap, he just steamrolls right through it, further ignoring Ouki's orders?? Ouki is meant to know these tendencies of Moubu despite never having fought a day in his life with him or against him? Are we trolling?
If it was Tou, you MIGHT have some sort of a stance, and even then I think it's completely disingenuous.
Yea this is also wrong. There are multiple phases that led to that scenario, that scenario you're talking about does not happen if Moubu doesn't do the fuck up.
1st phase. They enter the moutains and Ouki sets up the flag system which serves the basis of his strategy. And the reason he doesn't want Moubu going out of range is because Ouki can no longer properly strategize. However, after getting baited initially by Houken, Moubu chases him into a clear Trap where Ryuukoku even warns him. This results in half of the Ryuukoku-Moubu army getting destroyed. Moubu still continues the chase.
Ryuukoku then warns Moubu again.. yo let's pull back. Moubu.. defies again and they continue pushing.
Moubu's disobeying of orders results in getting his army cut off from the HQ. And because of this contact he now started to rush the advancement of his army in order to go save Moubu/Ryuukoku. Even though this is not what he wanted to do.
Ouki is forced to make the decision due to Moubu's action to cut off from the HQ, thus losing control of the entire battlefield. With him being completely aware this was all a trap just to slay him.
And no Ouki does not go into the trap with "security". Rather he goes into the trap with insane amount of caution, a strategem he calls "frightfully deep". There is no false sense of security. He went in fully expecting things could go south.
And why does he go into the strategem that even he found to be frightful? Because that's the only way to save Moubu. And why does he need to save Moubu? Because Ei Sei's goal of the unification of China.
Yes Ouki miscalculated the speed of the horses when going into a strategem he was highly cautious of and described as "Frightful". However, he would never be in that trap if 1 person simply obeyed his orders. The trap cut him off from the Qin HQ, which prevented him to get any information on Riboku's army that had appeared. Ouki couldn't overcome the trap because of the miscalculation of the speed, but he would never be in that trap if it wasn't for Moubu.
Riboku isn't going to get credit for Moubu's fuck up, unless you can provide panels of Riboku predicting Moubu acting like a dumbfuck. And Ouki never claimed he specifically got outplayed as a general, he said "We've been outplayed" which is referring to them as the Qin. Which is true, you're not gonna see me here saying Riboku didn't outplay the Qin. But he didn't outplay Ouki as a general.
-> SHK's failure in intelligence, which he acknowledged
-> Moubu's fuck up, which even Moubu had the brain capacity to admit was at fault for everything
^^ These two led to Riboku being able to kill Ouki.
This is also true. And even before that the weird plot moment of Ouki stopping himself mid-way from swinging down and beheading Houken when Riboku's army arrives, also helped him greatly. Otherwise, he beheads Houken there, and proceeds to escape by tearing through the army.
Ahh yes, I forgot we're talking about teenagers, and not grown ass military men who accept the roles before heading into battle and are by military law obligated to obey their higherups.
And certainly when Moubu quietly agrees to Ouki's orders, Ouki should've used future sight in which Moubu goes against that agreement, and sat him down and give him a lecturing to. Or perhaps Ryuukoku should've done that when he reminds Moubu of the order by Ouki and Moubu in calm manner says that he's aware..
We're turning generals into babysitters now, fuck yea.
1st. This is the panel you're talking about right here. Absolutely nothing in this panel is about Moubu disobeying direct orders and fucking up battle plans for the entire war. It was specifically about his destructive power.
2nd. They literally had nobody else of prowess available to be the Vice-commander. It ain't like Ouki was sitting there and chilling with Kanki/Ousen/Yotanwa/Moubu all on the block and he decided to pick Moubu. No, that was the best thing available that he had to make work with. This is after Moubu is coming off a large campaign of 200k army...
3rd. What gamble?? Moubu is a grown ass man who has been through many wars. His job as the Vice-commander is to obey the Commander in Chief's order. Ouki thought that Moubu might act up if he saw Houken, thus he made it VERY CLEAR directly to Moubu himself, that he ABSOLUTELY cannot go past the range... which Moubu agreed to. Then when Ryuukoku reminds Moubu of that again, and Moubu replies "yes I know"... are Ryuukoku and Ouki supposed to expect this mf to be a liar?
Ouki meant to know that Moubu's IQ after being the lead of a 200k army campaign is low that he can't obey basic orders? That when he sees a basic trap, he just steamrolls right through it, further ignoring Ouki's orders?? Ouki is meant to know these tendencies of Moubu despite never having fought a day in his life with him or against him? Are we trolling?
If it was Tou, you MIGHT have some sort of a stance, and even then I think it's completely disingenuous.
Yea this is also wrong. There are multiple phases that led to that scenario, that scenario you're talking about does not happen if Moubu doesn't do the fuck up.
1st phase. They enter the moutains and Ouki sets up the flag system which serves the basis of his strategy. And the reason he doesn't want Moubu going out of range is because Ouki can no longer properly strategize. However, after getting baited initially by Houken, Moubu chases him into a clear Trap where Ryuukoku even warns him. This results in half of the Ryuukoku-Moubu army getting destroyed. Moubu still continues the chase.
Ryuukoku then warns Moubu again.. yo let's pull back. Moubu.. defies again and they continue pushing.
Moubu's disobeying of orders results in getting his army cut off from the HQ. And because of this contact he now started to rush the advancement of his army in order to go save Moubu/Ryuukoku. Even though this is not what he wanted to do.
Ouki is forced to make the decision due to Moubu's action to cut off from the HQ, thus losing control of the entire battlefield. With him being completely aware this was all a trap just to slay him.
And no Ouki does not go into the trap with "security". Rather he goes into the trap with insane amount of caution, a strategem he calls "frightfully deep". There is no false sense of security. He went in fully expecting things could go south.
And why does he go into the strategem that even he found to be frightful? Because that's the only way to save Moubu. And why does he need to save Moubu? Because Ei Sei's goal of the unification of China.
Yes Ouki miscalculated the speed of the horses when going into a strategem he was highly cautious of and described as "Frightful". However, he would never be in that trap if 1 person simply obeyed his orders. The trap cut him off from the Qin HQ, which prevented him to get any information on Riboku's army that had appeared. Ouki couldn't overcome the trap because of the miscalculation of the speed, but he would never be in that trap if it wasn't for Moubu.
Riboku isn't going to get credit for Moubu's fuck up, unless you can provide panels of Riboku predicting Moubu acting like a dumbfuck. And Ouki never claimed he specifically got outplayed as a general, he said "We've been outplayed" which is referring to them as the Qin. Which is true, you're not gonna see me here saying Riboku didn't outplay the Qin. But he didn't outplay Ouki as a general.
-> SHK's failure in intelligence, which he acknowledged
-> Moubu's fuck up, which even Moubu had the brain capacity to admit was at fault for everything
^^ These two led to Riboku being able to kill Ouki.
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This is also true. And even before that the weird plot moment of Ouki stopping himself mid-way from swinging down and beheading Houken when Riboku's army arrives, also helped him greatly. Otherwise, he beheads Houken there, and proceeds to escape by tearing through the army.
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Ahh yes, I forgot we're talking about teenagers, and not grown ass military men who accept the roles before heading into battle and are by military law obligated to obey their higherups.
And certainly when Moubu quietly agrees to Ouki's orders, Ouki should've used future sight in which Moubu goes against that agreement, and sat him down and give him a lecturing to. Or perhaps Ryuukoku should've done that when he reminds Moubu of the order by Ouki and Moubu in calm manner says that he's aware..
We're turning generals into babysitters now, fuck yea.
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