Controversial General Political Discussion

[TheAncientCenturion]

Japanese are living in the same world as the nation who atomized two of their cities.. Do you see them retaliating or keeping a global hate against the US citizen ? No. Because this is a luxury that only those in power have.

The population of Gaza is asking for only a few things : the end of Colonization and liberation of colonized areas and the end of the oppression of the palestinian people. Give them that and Hamas will cease to exist for the most part as it is only fueled by the anger of the population. Of course it will still be a foundamentalist threat, but it will be reduced to a micro movement.

Israel has no choice. Either they end up as actors of crimes against humanity (and people will be brought in front of justice for that) and bring the entierity of the region down with them (Yemen/Iran.. the world?) or they cease their operations and admit their states as oppressors.

The difference is, realistically, the Israeli people are going to be wanting safety and reprisal.

The Japanese forces were already decimated save for what they kept in Northern Manchuria to defend against a Soviet attack, they had no practical response to the U.S. invading or launching more atomic bombs. Israel does have one and I do not think we can expect them to open peace talks unless the Gazan government is fully removed. The same government that has promised more assaults in the caliber of 10/7. Any government that tries to do that won't be popular.

 

[Logiko]

So you are saying Israel needs to cease to be?Because that is what Hamas wants.

No. cease their operations. Stop the colonization process. Give back the land to the palestinians in the limits of the 1948 border (or with adjusments of the borders to avoid having a split of Israel in two. And stop the systemic oppression of the palestinian and Muslim outside and inside of Israel.

The difference is, realistically, the Israeli people are going to be wanting safety and reprisal.

This is not a luxury they can afford right now. They have allowed their country to colonize and oppress an entire nation for decades and decades. They can't expect to be seen as peacemakers.

They will have to end the war and help Palestinian to create a real government. Only them can do that, but they will have to live with the potential threat of the anger of the other side (that will be just a shadow of a threat) and TANK IT.

They will need to live with the possible threat. Mind you, if Israel stop the war, stop the colonization and stop the oppression of palestinian + helps the reconstruction, such attack as octoboer 7th will most likely not be repeated again.

To give you a image, if you just realized as a man that you made the life of your wife a violent living hell for decades, you can't expect her to be okay with your presence just because you realized what you did and you said sorry. It will take time for the wound to heal and you will need to move away. You might never be forgiven, but you need to accept the consequences of your actions.

Israelians can't go anywhere else, but they have the power and the defenses as a country to tank attacks without having the need to retaliate. if they do things properly, they might even ally with Palestinian forces to stop those attack from even happening in the first place. But they have NO choices but to ACCEPT them and stop the war first. That's what being a real peacemaker means.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

They will have to end the war and help Palestinian to create a real government. Only them can do that, but they will have to live with the potential threat of the anger of the other side (that will be just a shadow of a threat) and TANK IT.

This is somewhere I agree on, less the rest.

Post-War, Israel (and the international community) should pitch in and rebuild Gaza & support the Westbank to be self sustaining democracies, otherwise you'll end up in the same spot in another 20 years.

 

[Logiko]

This is somewhere I agree on, less the rest.

Post-War, Israel (and the international community) should pitch in and rebuild Gaza & support the Westbank to be self sustaining democracies, otherwise you'll end up in the same spot in another 20 years.

Of course. But for that they need to make the impossible choice of accepting their status of oppressor and dominant power first and stop their attack.

Which would be unprecedented in such a small period of time. But would have the merit of being a very positive step toward peace.

Sadly, when we know that even Nations of Europe or the US sometimes still refuse to accept their past as genocidary colonial states... I have very little hope for the futur of this region.

 

[NAMELESS]

Of course. But for that they need to make the impossible choice of accepting their status of oppressor and dominant power first and stop their attack.

Which would be unprecedented in such a small period of time. But would have the merit of being a very positive step toward peace.

Sadly, when we know that even Nations of Europe or the US sometimes still refuse to accept their past as genocidary colonial states... I have very little hope for the futur of this region.

Israel just create a new Hamas. The sons of the innocent will be willing to fight them in the future. What needs to happen is that the big players need to get involved and turn Palestine into a real state and make it so these terrorists groups get suppressed. Maybe Saudi Arabia could do it ,but it seems nobody really wants the heat.

 

[Logiko]

The sons of the innocent will be willing to fight them in the future.

Only if they are not liberated. Noone can fight on revenge only. Its not viable.

What needs to happen is that the big players need to get involved and turn Palestine into a real state and make it so these terrorists groups get suppressed

The Hamas is a representation of the anger of the Palestinian people. They only exist because Palestinian have no other choice but to fight or die.

Stop the colonization process, the bombings, the oppression of the Palestinian and help the reconstruction for all.. and the resistance side of Hamas will disappear and with it, all the youngs that only enlisted because of anger will stop the fight.

Hamas will be left with foundamentalists and extremists. A dangerous yet strict minority of people.

Israel has to stop the fight first.

 

[NAMELESS]

Only if they are not liberated. Noone can fight on revenge only. Its not viable.



The Hamas is a representation of the anger of the Palestinian people. They only exist because Palestinian have no other choice but to fight or die.

Stop the colonization process, the bombings, the oppression of the Palestinian and help the reconstruction for all.. and the resistance side of Hamas will disappear and with it, all the youngs that only enlisted because of anger will stop the fight.

Hamas will be left with foundamentalists and extremists. A dangerous yet strict minority of people.

Israel has to stop the fight first.

The Middle east is not the west. Its different world there. You bet there will be many looking for vengeance even if Palestine became a first world nation in just a couple of years. Ever heard about honor killings?

 

[Logiko]

The Middle east is not the west. Its different world there. You bet there will be many looking for vengeance even if Palestine became a first world nation in just a couple of years. Ever heard about honor killings?

Why ? because somehow people in the middle east are not the same human as in the west ?

Do you really think that people who finally have peace and have a potential to reconstruct their life with their relatives will risk everything and their people for "honor" even when the oppressor has admited its fault ?? This would not be honor, this would be suicidal, and people who want to live are not suicidal.

 

[NAMELESS]

Why ? because somehow people in the middle east are not the same human as in the west ?

Do you really think that people who finally have peace and have a potential to reconstruct their life with their relatives will risk everything and their people for "honor" even when the oppressor has admited its fault ?? This would not be honor, this would be suicidal, and people who want to live are not suicidal.

Yeah,you don't get what different cultures mean. Not everyone think and sees life from the same view point as you do,carrot4nakama.

 

[Logiko]

Yeah,you don't get what different cultures mean. Not everyone think and sees life from the same view point as you do,carrot4nakama.

First, I'm not the one reducing an entire population to fit in my own bias here mate.
Second, there are multiple culture in gaza
Third, when given the possibility of peace and reconstruction. Most people will not trash it away for the sake of a suicidal battle. Even Samourais where not that suicidal.

 

[NAMELESS]

First, I'm not the one reducing an entire population to fit in my own bias here mate.
Second, there are multiple culture in gaza
Third, when given the possibility of peace and reconstruction. Most people will not trash it away for the sake of a suicidal battle. Even Samourais where not that suicidal.

First,What bias?
Second,not really.
Third,yeah but the few that would do it are the problem.There are millions of people in Gaza.There only 30-40 thousand Hamas fighters.Look at how much damage they have done.A few thousand radicals are pretty much.

 

[Logiko]

the few that would do it are the problem.

No they are not. Israel as the capacity to prevent attack on its soil. October 7th was a disaster because of three reasons:
- Israel underestimated Hamas and thought an attack was impossible on its soil in great scale
- The gov didn't listen to security warning indicating the possibility of an upcoming attack
- The Hamas prepared this very carefully using large number of human ressources and attack key military centers to completely confuse the Israelian defenses.

This simply cannot happen again on this scale, not with the Hamas completely bombarded night and day. What you will have at worst are personnal attacks. But those attacks were only taking place because of the blocus and the colonization of Palestinians, those were angry people.

So, if you combine the ISraelian forces with new Palestinian forces of defense, those event will simply not happen again unless they are helped by other countries.

The majority of fighter in Gaza are young people who enlist because of fear, anger and revenge. We are not talking about Daesh here which has clear foundamentalist and terrorist visions, we are talking about angry young people. There will be absolutely no reason for them to fight once they see the possibility for a brighter future for their family and themself.

This false fear that Israel keeps alive is illogical and is costing the lives of thousands of civilians.

 

[NAMELESS]

No they are not. Israel as the capacity to prevent attack on its soil. October 7th was a disaster because of three reasons:
- Israel underestimated Hamas and thought an attack was impossible on its soil in great scale
- The gov didn't listen to security warning indicating the possibility of an upcoming attack
- The Hamas prepared this very carefully using large number of human ressources and attack key military centers to completely confuse the Israelian defenses.

This simply cannot happen again on this scale, not with the Hamas completely bombarded night and day. What you will have at worst are personnal attacks. But those attacks were only taking place because of the blocus and the colonization of Palestinians, those were angry people.

So, if you combine the ISraelian forces with new Palestinian forces of defense, those event will simply not happen again unless they are helped by other countries.

The majority of fighter in Gaza are young people who enlist because of fear, anger and revenge. We are not talking about Daesh here which has clear foundamentalist and terrorist visions, we are talking about angry young people. There will be absolutely no reason for them to fight once they see the possibility for a brighter future for their family and themself.

This false fear that Israel keeps alive is illogical and is costing the lives of thousands of civilians.

We will see how it will play out once this is over.I think you are too optimistic.

 

[Logiko]

We will see how it will play out once this is over.I think you are too optimistic.

This is the only choice I have

 

[Zolo]

This is somewhere I agree on, less the rest.

Post-War, Israel (and the international community) should pitch in and rebuild Gaza & support the Westbank to be self sustaining democracies, otherwise you'll end up in the same spot in another 20 years.

After more that 30k of there people dead its impossible

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2024

 

[NAMELESS]

After more that 30k of there people dead its impossible

Post automatically merged: Jan 14, 2024

I think its a safe prediction to say that more groups like Hamas will pop up.

 

[Zolo]

I think its a safe prediction to say that more groups like Hamas will pop up.

Exactly

 

[Monkey D Theories]

I finished reading Herzl’s Der Judenstaat. Herzl was a racist and a colonialist, as expected of a white man in the 1800s.

Nonetheless, I was surprised by the fact that Herzl’s Jewish state could have honestly been more egalitarian than modern Israel.

Herzl’s ideal government was a democratic monarchy or aristocratic republic. Under a monarchy, Israel could have had a Jewish national character without needing to nakba the Palestinians.

Palestinians could be fully equal to Jewish commoners under a Jewish monarchy, as the state wouldn’t need to oppress Palestinians in order to create an artificial Jewish majority. In fact Palestinians could even marry into the royal family, unifying the nation under the monarch.

 

[Zenos7]

The reality is that there is not 10 groups, there is only two because those values have things in common.

Not caring about those value means not caring about life itself. That's why there is no such thing as apolitical people and why most apolitical are usually rightist that ignore themself

Baseless drivel, black and white nonsense.

Also i talked about not caring about labels.

 

[Akai2]