Controversial General Political Discussion
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@Logiko do you feel this way too?
The problem is that those values are emerging a LOT in or societies lately. So much so that the liberals (at least in France) are getting influenced by it. Which creates a bridge between said liberalism and the far right, that blends both of the political scale in between between an ultra liberal ideology and a far rightist one. This is why today, the right is quasi non existent.
ANd in fact you can see that literally happening in France right now. Macron gave so much room to the far right that it grew too much. So much that today the left is able to make a united popular front, but the right is completely desintegrated and some deputees are starting to make alliances with the far right.
When I say "the far right is everywhere", I'm not simply dreaming my own dark fantasy, I'm describing an documented historical and sociological situation happening right in front of us.
The "reasonable" middle ground is:
- Not reasonable at all since it usually supports oppressive politics
- Is responsible for the rise of the far right
So no, we don't want a "reasonable middle-ground" anymore, we want a strong antifascist, really progressive and anticapitalist movement.
There is NO logical reasons to be scared by immigration. So when you say "people are scared" I here the same as when someone say that people are scared because of LGBTQI+, its hate and nothing is reasonnable about it.
That's why, if you play on this illogical fear, you are playing with the tool of the far right and that why we call people who do that "problematic".
Radicality is not necessarily a bad thing.
If you genuinely believe there is nothing to fear from unbridled, unregulated immigration, then you're a fool, Logiko. Hear the testimonies from the poorest neighbourhoods and then let's talk. I grew up in such a neighbourhood. I've seen how unregulated immigration and forcing opposing cultures together causes strife - and ultimately - violence. I know what you'll say: It's all a social issue - and we - the original inhabitants of the country are being bigoted, but you're wrong.
There are immigrants who cause no issues, but there are also immigrants who DO. Like a good globalist, you seem to believe that everyone should be free to live anywhere, and that we should all exist not as sovereign nations, but economic zones devoid of the original culture that made the nation thrive.
I'm tired of those who live nowhere NEAR ghettos, those who cannot even go outside their house, let alone go into a no-go zone, say "there is nothing to fear."
Ultimately Logiko, you believe in the conglomerated mass of humanity as an umbrella, when societies do not work that way, culture... does not work that way. I hate using this terminology, but you've essentially fallen for American Imperalism where all nations must be a "melting pot" like America.
There are immigrants who cause no issues, but there are also immigrants who DO. Like a good globalist, you seem to believe that everyone should be free to live anywhere, and that we should all exist not as sovereign nations, but economic zones devoid of the original culture that made the nation thrive.
I'm tired of those who live nowhere NEAR ghettos, those who cannot even go outside their house, let alone go into a no-go zone, say "there is nothing to fear."
Ultimately Logiko, you believe in the conglomerated mass of humanity as an umbrella, when societies do not work that way, culture... does not work that way. I hate using this terminology, but you've essentially fallen for American Imperalism where all nations must be a "melting pot" like America.
No, I'm simply looking at reality as it is and no how my biases or potential fear is telling me it is. I HAVE been afraid of immigration before. This is not the case anymore.
The only thing that I can give you is the fear of not having enough ressources to welcome people. Aside from that, nothing. But as we know, immigration is not a problem because of a lack of ressources, we have plenty to welcome people, what we lack is determination.
If your fear is based on any other reason that that then its problematic.
The problem is not immigration, the problem is rascism mate. Do you think minorities and immigrant are ending up in poor neightboorhood by choice ?
No. They are SYSTEMATICALLY pushed that way by society.
The problem is NEVER and will NEVER be immigration. The problems is:
1 - Capitalism
2 - Systemic racism
Those two things combined created a concentration of racialiazed and marginalized population that have nothing. This creates crimes, this creates communautarism and this creates violences.
Those population are NOT at fault, the SYSTEM is.
Bring wealth to those people and you will see insecurity go down in a heartbeat. But as long as systemic racism, meritocracy and ultra liberalism will be a things, it won't happen.
No. Mate. This is a sociological fact.
https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/examples-of-systemic-racism/
And its not necessarily "us" the problem. The problem are the institutions that allow said systemic racism to exist, the problem is capitalism and meritocracy that keeps most the wealth in the pocket of the 1%.
I don't ask you to change. I ask you to understand the system and try to change it with me.
Yeah, just like there are good people and bad people. So what ? If you ask me to stop immigration because you are afraid of 1% of bad apples, then sorry but I'm not the fool.
Yup
Yup
That's why I'm more of an anarchist than a communist.
I want a world without borders.
This is a fallacy.
You are invoking a sentimental bias here to explains that it is impossible to understand the situation of zone without living in it. Without even mentionning the fact that you don't know where I live, your reasonning here is absolutely not based on reality. Its based on fear alone.
No, I don't need to live in a ghettos to understand what is happening there. I will not "feel" what its like to be there, but I will understand how it works if said zone is documented enough. And you are not lucky, the reality of the poor neighborhood is something that is highly documented. Anyone with a bit of understanding of social sciences can understand the reality of those zone and the fact that violences and crimes there, is not related to the color of skin or the origin or the religion, but related to the marginalization of the population by the institution.
A marginalization so insidious and so powerfull that it forces some to resort to anger and violence to survive for those who can simply afford to be violent, because some are literally in the streets.
The reality is that you are afraid of something that is created by what you are promoting : the system.
All nations WILL be a melting pot of different cultures. Its UNavoidable in an international and connected world
You can resist.
But it will happen.
The only thing that I can give you is the fear of not having enough ressources to welcome people. Aside from that, nothing. But as we know, immigration is not a problem because of a lack of ressources, we have plenty to welcome people, what we lack is determination.
If your fear is based on any other reason that that then its problematic.
The problem is not immigration, the problem is rascism mate. Do you think minorities and immigrant are ending up in poor neightboorhood by choice ?
No. They are SYSTEMATICALLY pushed that way by society.
The problem is NEVER and will NEVER be immigration. The problems is:
1 - Capitalism
2 - Systemic racism
Those two things combined created a concentration of racialiazed and marginalized population that have nothing. This creates crimes, this creates communautarism and this creates violences.
Those population are NOT at fault, the SYSTEM is.
Bring wealth to those people and you will see insecurity go down in a heartbeat. But as long as systemic racism, meritocracy and ultra liberalism will be a things, it won't happen.
No. Mate. This is a sociological fact.
https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/examples-of-systemic-racism/
And its not necessarily "us" the problem. The problem are the institutions that allow said systemic racism to exist, the problem is capitalism and meritocracy that keeps most the wealth in the pocket of the 1%.
I don't ask you to change. I ask you to understand the system and try to change it with me.
Yeah, just like there are good people and bad people. So what ? If you ask me to stop immigration because you are afraid of 1% of bad apples, then sorry but I'm not the fool.
Yup
Yup
That's why I'm more of an anarchist than a communist.
I want a world without borders.
This is a fallacy.
You are invoking a sentimental bias here to explains that it is impossible to understand the situation of zone without living in it. Without even mentionning the fact that you don't know where I live, your reasonning here is absolutely not based on reality. Its based on fear alone.
No, I don't need to live in a ghettos to understand what is happening there. I will not "feel" what its like to be there, but I will understand how it works if said zone is documented enough. And you are not lucky, the reality of the poor neighborhood is something that is highly documented. Anyone with a bit of understanding of social sciences can understand the reality of those zone and the fact that violences and crimes there, is not related to the color of skin or the origin or the religion, but related to the marginalization of the population by the institution.
A marginalization so insidious and so powerfull that it forces some to resort to anger and violence to survive for those who can simply afford to be violent, because some are literally in the streets.
The reality is that you are afraid of something that is created by what you are promoting : the system.
All nations WILL be a melting pot of different cultures. Its UNavoidable in an international and connected world
You can resist.
But it will happen.
I'm glad you picked up on this particular thing. Because this is how you argue. You seemingly believe in intersectionalism, yet seem to not in this one case. Bravo, Logiko.
And this is where we differ. You wish for the dissolution of all cultures. So much for the supposed diversity you advocate for.
I'm sorry bro, but what? No, if anything, it's economic strains that put them in those neighbourhoods. Furthermore, if you knew anything about this, you'd know that there are ghettos where these individuals have isolated THEMSELVES to, where they become insular and hostile towards the native population.
We do not have plenty of resources. Not really. I'll give you that the elites do hold onto way more resources than they need, but we still do not have enough of the most important resource - land - especially in places like the UK.
And that is because of your globalistic mindset. This effectively pushes for one of the things you hate most: The System. You think that it's the general populace who wants globalism? No, it's the elites, bro.
And this is where we differ. You wish for the dissolution of all cultures. So much for the supposed diversity you advocate for.
I'm sorry bro, but what? No, if anything, it's economic strains that put them in those neighbourhoods. Furthermore, if you knew anything about this, you'd know that there are ghettos where these individuals have isolated THEMSELVES to, where they become insular and hostile towards the native population.
We do not have plenty of resources. Not really. I'll give you that the elites do hold onto way more resources than they need, but we still do not have enough of the most important resource - land - especially in places like the UK.
And that is because of your globalistic mindset. This effectively pushes for one of the things you hate most: The System. You think that it's the general populace who wants globalism? No, it's the elites, bro.
Eh, i moved to eastern germany 2 years ago, in the cities it really isnt that bad.
There are some areas in germany that are pretty much filled with nazis where you get attacked for just not looking german.
I doubt this would happen in our lifetime
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There are some areas in germany that are pretty much filled with nazis where you get attacked for just not looking german.
Post automatically merged:
I doubt this would happen in our lifetime
Why do you think that I don't believe in interesectionnalism here when I am literally explaining to you that poverty is directly linked with the combinaison of Systemic Racism and capitalism ?
That's where you are wrong. ANd that's where you completely missunderstand the way reality work.
Now, read carefully because this is very important:
Culture are not substractive. Cultures are additive.
Right now, you believe that when a culture encounter another, one of the two culture is bound to disappear.
- That's
- NOT
- How
- Reality
- Works
When a culture encounter another culture peacefully, NONE of the culture disappear. In reality, what happens is that a THIRD culture is emerging. Said culture will be the addition of the other two.
This process has a name : Creolization
In short, what happens when two cultures are encountering each other is not a cultural war. Only racist and bigots think that. What really happens is a magical anthropological, linguistical and sociological process that creates a new way of seeing the world.
Because yes. When two vision of the world are mixed together, what happens is the extention of the vision of the world of EVERYONE in the emergent culture.
So yes, I'm advocating for the melting pots. Because that's how we will learn to live with each others and understand the world.
Economy is not pushed without values. When a system is racist, the economy is racist as well. And systemic racism is still a thing is occidental societies all over the world so economy will follow and push minorities and racialized people in position of poverty.
Again, its a documented fact.
You are inversing the problem here. Racialized people, people with non hegemonic religion, poor people are NOT isolating themself, they are BEING ISOLATED by the system and the social structures of power. NOT the other way around.
When a muslim can't find an appartment or a job because they are muslim, they won't stay in muslim community because they simply want to live with other muslim, they will stay in those communities out of necessity and SURVIVAL.
I'm talking here about Muslim, but the same happens with Asian racialized people in USA, Natives in Australia, Rom community in Italy etc.
Oh yes we do.
There is always a solution.
The problem is not the ressources, the problem is the lack of determination and the fear of said communities.
Yeah, the elites want a globalist world to assure full control. A want a world without frontiere for the opposite.
Oh yeah. I don't even think we can reach that in our millenia lol
That's where you are wrong. ANd that's where you completely missunderstand the way reality work.
Now, read carefully because this is very important:
Culture are not substractive. Cultures are additive.
Right now, you believe that when a culture encounter another, one of the two culture is bound to disappear.
- That's
- NOT
- How
- Reality
- Works
When a culture encounter another culture peacefully, NONE of the culture disappear. In reality, what happens is that a THIRD culture is emerging. Said culture will be the addition of the other two.
This process has a name : Creolization
In short, what happens when two cultures are encountering each other is not a cultural war. Only racist and bigots think that. What really happens is a magical anthropological, linguistical and sociological process that creates a new way of seeing the world.
Because yes. When two vision of the world are mixed together, what happens is the extention of the vision of the world of EVERYONE in the emergent culture.
So yes, I'm advocating for the melting pots. Because that's how we will learn to live with each others and understand the world.
Economy is not pushed without values. When a system is racist, the economy is racist as well. And systemic racism is still a thing is occidental societies all over the world so economy will follow and push minorities and racialized people in position of poverty.
Again, its a documented fact.
You are inversing the problem here. Racialized people, people with non hegemonic religion, poor people are NOT isolating themself, they are BEING ISOLATED by the system and the social structures of power. NOT the other way around.
When a muslim can't find an appartment or a job because they are muslim, they won't stay in muslim community because they simply want to live with other muslim, they will stay in those communities out of necessity and SURVIVAL.
I'm talking here about Muslim, but the same happens with Asian racialized people in USA, Natives in Australia, Rom community in Italy etc.
Oh yes we do.
There is always a solution.
The problem is not the ressources, the problem is the lack of determination and the fear of said communities.
Yeah, the elites want a globalist world to assure full control. A want a world without frontiere for the opposite.
Oh yeah. I don't even think we can reach that in our millenia lol
Eric Ciotti (president of Les Républicains, the "big and old" right wing party) wanting to force an alliance with the far-right to his party was the most foreseeable thing I could see coming. He said many times during the last year or so that he desired such an alliance. It was just a matter of time.
It's PM and the whole government
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It's PM and the whole government
Yeah it was predictible, those guys went to the far right a long time ago, what is funny on the other hand is the split happening between the "macron friendly" and the "far right friendly". In a way, what is happening is kind of amazing and highly ironical.
Macron created his entire presidential compaign on confusionnism and the notion that he is neither left nor right. Which destroyed what was left of the political party at the time (that where not really strong to begin with on one side or the other).
And he tried to do the same thing once again by betting on the fact that the dissolution of the assemblee would create the destructions of other party that were start to reform and could reassemble a new majority without the radical leftist.
But the guys simply didn't anticipated the fact that he became so friendly with the far right that it destroyed also his own movement and the entire liberal right.
Result: In front of the far right risking to arrive in power, EVERYONE on the left concluded an union in two hours. Something they failed to do in 7 years and the right is completely destroyed.
Now Its basically the entire left against the far right.
We might not win at the end, but damn, this union is cool.
Macron created his entire presidential compaign on confusionnism and the notion that he is neither left nor right. Which destroyed what was left of the political party at the time (that where not really strong to begin with on one side or the other).
And he tried to do the same thing once again by betting on the fact that the dissolution of the assemblee would create the destructions of other party that were start to reform and could reassemble a new majority without the radical leftist.
But the guys simply didn't anticipated the fact that he became so friendly with the far right that it destroyed also his own movement and the entire liberal right.
Result: In front of the far right risking to arrive in power, EVERYONE on the left concluded an union in two hours. Something they failed to do in 7 years and the right is completely destroyed.
Now Its basically the entire left against the far right.
We might not win at the end, but damn, this union is cool.
