Controversial General Political Discussion

[Logiko]

Do you know that there are working class people who actually succeeded at elevating themselves, do you?

Yes. In sociology we call people who """"succeed"""" (this word in itself is problematic), "Transclass". These are people who will go from the lower to the upper classes.

Spoiler : They are exceptions. And they do no negate the absence of meritocracy.

Those are people that has either the right tools exactly at the right moment or met the right people, or did EXACTLY what they needed to do. Something that most people can't simply because it's like trying to shot a fly with a gun from one kilometer away.

Because they were talented and worked hard to be where there are, instead of whining and blaming « the system »?

There is no such thing as "talent". There are geniuses, granted. People like Einstein or Mozart for example (and usually in only one domain). Those are people who have just a connectivity in the brain that is beyond what is possible on average...

... And there is the rest of people. Those people will need luck to "succeed".
I demonstrated to you that working hard is simply an illusion. You might work hard but depending on MANY factors, the fact of working will not have the same effect depending on the context, the income, the social capital, the cultural capital, the economic capital etc.

You can stay in denial if you want, or I can keep explaining this to you for hours..... or you can simply read some science and researcher who are working on those notion... to understand how reality work.

Those who keep telling themselves that they are powerless ends up becoming such.

Yeah. Well, I'll give you a challenge. I want you to work very hard and be able to win 50 000 € a month before the end of this year. DO you think you are capable of that ?

Maybe .. so let's up that shall we ? I challenge you to become a Billionnaire before 2027. Can you do that ? Should be easy since working hard is the only factor to create "success", right ?

why in the heck shouldn’t their children benefit from it?

I'm sure people working in factories are asking the same question... sadly, they have not much to give to their children.. would you say that they are not "working hard" enough ?

* of course I’m not oblivious of the fact that there are people who got where they are through nepotism, favouritism and illicit means, but this is exactly antithetical to the meritocracy I’m advocating for.

That's what meritocracy is mate. Nepotism, favouritism, and inheritence.

Depending on where you are born: You will either have great social, economic, cultural capital or you won't. And this will influence the way you will be placed in society.

So it's time to change that. And end the belief in meritocracy that prevent some people from becoming wealthy.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

 

[Cherry Hilk]

Yes. In sociology we call people who """"succeed"""" (this word in itself is problematic), "Transclass". These are people who will go from the lower to the upper classes.

Spoiler : They are exceptions. And they do no negate the absence of meritocracy.

Those are people that has either the right tools exactly at the right moment or met the right people, or did EXACTLY what they needed to do. Something that most people can't simply because it's like trying to shot a fly with a gun from one kilometer away.



There is no such thing as "talent". There are geniuses, granted. People like Einstein or Mozart for example (and usually in only one domain). Those are people who have just a connectivity in the brain that is beyond what is possible on average...

... And there is the rest of people. Those people will need luck to "succeed".
I demonstrated to you that working hard is simply an illusion. You might work hard but depending on MANY factors, the fact of working will not have the same effect depending on the context, the income, the social capital, the cultural capital, the economic capital etc.

You can stay in denial if you want, or I can keep explaining this to you for hours..... or you can simply read some science and researcher who are working on those notion... to understand how reality work.




Yeah. Well, I'll give you a challenge. I want you to work very hard and be able to win 50 000 € a month before the end of this year. DO you think you are capable of that ?

Maybe .. so let's up that shall we ? I challenge you to become a Billionnaire before 2027. Can you do that ? Should be easy since working hard is the only factor to create "success", right ?



I'm sure people working in factories are asking the same question... sadly, they have not much to give to their children.. would you say that they are not "working hard" enough ?



That's what meritocracy is mate. Nepotism, favouritism, and inheritence.

Depending on where you are born: You will either have great social, economic, cultural capital or you won't. And this will influence the way you will be placed in society.

So it's time to change that. And end the belief in meritocracy that prevent some people from becoming wealthy.

Here i’m going to make my last addition to this fruitless discussion.
It’s for all the disparities you keep talking about that things such as scholarships, Welfare ecc. exists, to allow people who do not have a head start to be given the chances to learn and develop. Then, after that the said people will have to commit, of course they will likely have to work harder than others, but theoretically meritocracy consists exactly in rewarding these efforts ( students with good results getting scholarships for good universities ecc.) and this yet unreached goal is in my opinion something to strive for rather then scorn. People should be encouraged to find out and cultivate their strenghts and develop and make something of themselves. That’s what a rewarding life is, everything else is just coping. A healthy society is the one which creates the conditions through which everyone is provided the resources to achieve their potential* but the individual has also the personal responsibility to make the best of these resources, and sometimes if s/he isn’t where s/he would like to be is because s/he did not manage to get there.
In every possible environment there will always be someone who will make the best use of what s/he has and obtain better result. Sometimes those who can’t cope with this reality have not been robbed by some evil system, but they just failed and the failure is all theirs. Meritocracy is but the recognition of excellence (a lazy idiot will stay a lazy idiot despite all daddy’s money), of all individual’s abilities, talents, potential and possibilities, something whose pursuit makes life worthwhile.
That’s it, I’ll say no more. Avoid sharing more cherrypicked contents from questionable sources through which you can feel better about having given up on life.

 

[Monkey D Theories]

Bro looks like he’s using gear 4th

 

[Logiko]

but theoretically meritocracy consists exactly in rewarding these efforts

Yes theoretically. On the paper, it's a concept that is cool.

The thing you don't want to see, is that those disparities are not simply the result of "bad conditions"... they are the results of the entire system that creates inequalities in ALL domains no matter.

students with good results getting scholarships for good universities ecc.

Yes.. and for example, what you don't want to accept is that to get good result, work is not the only parameter. It's in fact the last.

I made these graph to explain why meritocracy simply does not exist:

This is what (shematized) meritocracy AS A BELIEF SYSTEM looks like:

Link toward the visualizer : https://ibb.co/LR52fXJ

This is what reality (highly shematized) looks like:

Link toward the visualizer : https://ibb.co/RbT2BVk


In Blue: Economic capital
In Red: Social capital
In Green : Cultural capital

In purple: Asset accessed because of those Capitals

You NEED to understand what cultural, economic, social and sometime symbolical capitals are in social sciences, because you won't understand why Meritocracy does not exist if you don't.

And for that, again, you really need to pay attention to this video. It synthetize the concept very well :

Meritocracy is and will always be a myth

It's not a question of exception or "some can", it's a question of material impossibility due to the nature of reality and social systems.

People should be encouraged to find out and cultivate their strenghts and develop and make something of themselves.

I agree

. That’s what a rewarding life is, everything else is just coping

And that's where you are idealizing reality

A healthy society is the one which creates the conditions through which everyone is provided the resources to achieve their potential* but the individual has also the personal responsibility to make the best of these resources, and sometimes if s/he isn’t where s/he would like to be is because s/he did not manage to get there.

I agree with everything I put in bold. The rest is you, pushing your idealization of reality on society. It's not how reality works.

In every possible environment there will always be someone who will make the best use of what s/he has and obtain better result.

Yes. Ultimately this is logical, we can fix ALL inequalities, we can simply create a society in which all people have REALLY equal chances. ANd after that, it will be a lot of randomness.

But meritocracy is preventing us from achieving that.

If you think society is in chamble simply because we are in a wanky system and we haven't figured how to make it better just yet.. you are completely deluding yourself. We KNOW why society is in that shape. And by we I mean social scientist and most of the leftist spectra and activist. We also KNOW what we need to do in urgency to make society a LOT better.. to a certain limit.

So the state of our current society is not a mystery. What I'm telling you is the result of thousands of thinkers, scientist, activists, philosophers and politics that agree on one big constat :

Capitalism is killing the entire world and all societies and the reason why it's still here is because the upper class is using Meritocracy to justify it's domination, because the middle class is using Meritocracy to justify its priviledges and the working class is using Meritocracy to justify its sufferings.

EVERYONE is using the belief in meritocracy to justify their situation.

Avoid sharing more cherrypicked contents from questionable sources through which you can feel better about having given up on life.

Start by trying to learn more about sociology before talking to me and being irrespectfull on my personnal life. I have 1000 time your determination to create change.

It's ok not to know, but I don't like this attitude. Humble yourself.

 

[Kumathegoat]

Capitalism is killing the entire world and all societies and the reason why it's still here is because the upper class is using Meritocracy to justify it's domination, because the middle class is using Meritocracy to justify its priviledges and the working class is using Meritocracy to justify its sufferings.

Capitalism is killing the entire world because that is how it works.

Meritocracy is just a form of capitalist propaganda.

The illusion that anyone can be rich if he works enough for that.

We must not fight against the propaganda.

We must fight capitalism.

Communism is the only true medicine to it

 

[Logiko]

Capitalism is killing the entire world because that is how it works.

Meritocracy is just a form of capitalist propaganda.

The illusion that anyone can be rich if he works enough for that.

We must not fight against the propaganda.

We must fight capitalism.

Communism is the only true medicine to it

I do not agree with that. Meritocracy would be a propaganda only if it was a simple belief that had no impact on society.

But that's NOT the case. The idea that Meritocracy is only a propaganda is the reason why currently, communism is failing.

Meritocracy shapes the system that is capitalism. Capitalism would not be able to stand completely without this belief, this belief is PART of the system.

It's shapes how people thinks about their situation, how people act for their own interest and how people interact with each others.

Meritocracy literally acts as a sub system inside the system. A personnal constitution for all people. It's the glue that holds the system together.

For ex:

When someone tells me that I'm not legitimate to have a political opinions simply because I'm not a productive member of society (in the capitalist sence) and because of my situation laugh at me or insult me, well.. they are forcing ableism ON me IN capitalism BECAUSE OF a meritocratic belief that only people who are "productive members" of society are legitimate and worthy to be rewarded, because they put their "efforts" in.

This is just one case situation out of a 100 000. Meritocracy is the leg of Capitalism.

While we must fight the system that is Capitalism to create more equity, this can't be done without destroying completely the myth of meritocracy first.

You can't fight a fire without putting a ininflammable protection first.

Communism demands a revolution. Said revolution can't happen if everyone thinks that a revolution or change is not needed, and forcing a new system on people will not prevent people from thinking that Meritocracy exist. It will only create a wabbly system open for any opportunist to take hold of.

That's why if we get rid of Meritocracy. We will effortlessly evolve toward a communist like system and finally end up in a classless society.

Technically, getting rid of Capitalism doesn't need a revolution. It only needs a better access to this specific knowledge.

Post automatically merged: Sep 5, 2024

Oh, and since we are talking about Meritocracy, the impact of capitalism and Politics. Here is a fun video about the "OOF!" sound that I just stumble upon:

Trust me, it's worth the ENTIRE watch

 

[Daniel]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecyberexpress.com/telegram-addresses-deepfake-porn-south-korea/

Jesus christ

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecyberexpress.com/telegram-addresses-deepfake-porn-south-korea/

Jesus christ

South Korea has Islamist levels of misogyny but without Islam

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

South Korea has Islamist levels of misogyny but without Islam

 

[Daniel]

South Korea has Islamist levels of misogyny but without Islam

Be thankful that your country doesn't force your women to wear a burqa.

No offense to any muslims here on this board but it's generally common knowledge that Islamic countries don't score all that high in the global freedom index.

 

[AL sama]

Be thankful that your country doesn't force your women to wear a burqa.

No offense to any muslims here on this board but it's generally common knowledge that Islam-dominant countries don't score all that high in the global freedom index.

Islamic countries is more appropriate for your statement rather than Islam-dominant countries

88% population of my country are Muslims but we don't force any such things

 

[Daniel]

Islamic countries is more appropriate for your statement rather than Islam-dominant countries

I'll edit my previous post and make that correction.

Unrelated (but related to the link I posted earlier): The idea of slapping someone's face onto a random sex tape while simultaneously making that video look realistic is a fucked up as hell concept

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

Be thankful that your country doesn't force your women to wear a burqa.

I'm not from Korea tho

 

[SakazOuki]

What’s going on in india 😂
https://thewire.in/communalism/hatr...muslims-have-spread-like-an-epidemic-in-india

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

What’s going on in india 😂
https://thewire.in/communalism/hatr...muslims-have-spread-like-an-epidemic-in-india

As soon as any allegation is made against a Muslim, the administration arrives with a bulldozer to demolish his house. At many places, they celebrate the demolition of the house with DJ hired using the taxpayers’ money.

wtf

 

[Brush D. Teeth]

They have also been doing the same to Christians.

 

[Bisoromi Bear]

@AL sama you said tejas is perma banned.

 

[AL sama]

@AL sama you said tejas is perma banned.

from this thread yes

 

[kom5]

Be thankful that your country doesn't force your women to wear a burqa.

No offense to any muslims here on this board but it's generally common knowledge that Islamic countries don't score all that high in the global freedom index.

Whaaat how dare you ?

Islam is the best religion, religion of peace no one is forced to wear a hjab